And another thing…

No problems with ministerial cars.
But I have problems with hypocrites telling me to be green and owning two jags or using petrol driven limos in London: a recipe for high fuel consumption and pollution..
As for the rest, I think it’s a DEBATE.

I know the Labour Party appears not to believe in DEBATING# policy.. but for the rest of the world, debate is good.

# I was going to add a long list of things they did believe in but apart from big expense claims and spending money I was a bit short of ideas..

Conservative MPs believe in big expense claims as well .. just for the sake of balance…

It’s the sort of thing someone like the “Taxpayers Alliance” would come up with. So many of these groups keep claiming that the public sector should be run like the private sector.

But in the private sector, important employees who regularly work late (eg newspaper editors) get cars; high salaries are paid to get the right people (see, for example, the Mail’s nonsense about the pay of the new director of digital comms for the govt); staff parties and launches and things are recognized as cost-effective for morale and publicity; high advertising budgets are common and again considered cost-effective; and so on and so on.

What they actually mean is “the public sector should be starved of resources, unable to attract talent, and unable to inform the public of what it offers” – because they want it to fail, so that the private sector can take over.

“do you think there are too many MPs? Do you think MPs should be paid less? Do you think MPs should have shorter recesses? Do you think MPs’ pensions are too generous? Do you think MPs’ allowances should be cut?”

A think that the opublic would reply with a resounding ‘yes’ to all of those questions.

The simple fact is that there are dozens, if not hundreds of suitably qualified applicants for every vacancy in the HOC and the salary and perks of the role should reflect that fact.

“A (sic) think that the opublic would reply with a resounding ‘yes’ to all of those questions.”

That’s precisely the point I made in my original post, Richard.

A Labour blogger called Leaky Chanter has published details of the cost of mobile phones to the Scottish Parliament.

Well, bugger me, they are using phones? What’s wrong with good old pen and ink?

And what a silly pen and ink this is. Your actual minister for paper buying in Harare has a better limo than most British ministers.

The cars they get are rubbish. For goodness sake, what does it tell the world when a minister of state gets ferried around in a Mondeo?

It is absolutely essential they get proper cars, and effort free travel.

Tom has to travel from Glasgow, and to his credit uses the trains. I wouldn’t begrudge him a club air ticket. Let’s not get silly, let us treat our politicians with respect, and maybe, they would return the favour.

In fact, while we’re at it, why don’t we just cut MPs’ wages altogether?

Oh don’t tempt us! After the shambles of the last 12 (20?) years do you think vast numbers of the population don’t think that?

However, most of us would be content if you severely cut your expenses and handed over determination of your terms and conditions to an independent arbiter rather than allowing yourselves to habitually fill the ‘pig trough’.

Tom said recently that it is an enormous privilege to to be a Minister. I agree. Let us recognise that fact and make sure they can focus on running the country.

No reason why Ministers shouldn’t have cars, provided they’re taxable as a benefit in kind. They can have all the perks they want, provided they pay tax on them. Like we do in the commercial sector.

Equally, let’s pay MPs a good wage, say £90K or thereabouts and give them quarters in London if they live more than 30 miles from Charing Cross. Give them an open standard class season ticket between London and their constituency only. Get rid of all the allowances, it’s been pretty clearly demonstrated that they can’t be trusted with them. Any allowances they do get should be very tightly regulated indeed – that’s my money they’re cramming into their pockets.

I suspect there are more than enough other imbeciles who want to be MPs that we could probably slash the wages and still get more candidates than there are seats. It wouldn’t give us better MPs but I can’t see them being much worse.

I’m sorry for the unremittingly negative tone of the above, I’d love to respect my representatives and have some faith in their integrity and intelligence, not to mention a degree of confidence that they understood that their job is to represent the country’s interests, not their party’s – but I don’t.

Damnit Tom, stop posting things I agree with. Makes me feel the wold is wrong or something.
Of course Ministers need a sodding car; indeed I’d not be *too* concerned if Special Branch supplied it and it’s driver on the off chance some malcontent thinks to have a shot at them, or some *insert random foreign threat here* group decided a British Minister would make a lovely ransom…

Ditto I’d not be offended if Ministers got usage of the RAF’s aircraft *if* it’s important; for instance they represent, say, the Outer Hebrides and need to be in London at short notice. They run the country; if they need something to do that effectively, such as a driver, or a Lynx to pick them up because there’s an important summit in London and they’re stuck on Lewis and the ferry’s off, so be it.

Expenses accounts though aren’t even funny any more. It’s a scandal, and I seriously hope you, Tom, are playing on the fair and level in this regard.
Some Ministers need to realise that just because the law (which they may have helped write) says it’s fine doesn’t mean it’s right. Maybe they should have to start earning that “Right Honourable”…..

“Ministers work ridiculously long hours”

In common with many other greedy capitalists who are partners in SMEs, I worked 12-15 hour days, 5 days a week plus extra hours at the weekend for some years. I have an ancient car and have always driven myself.

“have to carry out all their ministerial duties on top of all their constituency duties and try, somehow, to fit in a family life as well.”

I did three jobs in my business while a single parent.

“A car and driver makes life easier and, as Iain accepts, doesn’t cost the public purse that much in the grand scheme of things.”

That does not alter the fact that there is really no justification for forcing the taxpayer to fund politicians’ various elitist perks.

Those who want and easy life should not choose demanding jobs.

“A car and driver makes life easier and, as Iain accepts, doesn’t cost the public purse that much in the grand scheme of things.” (Tom Harris)

“that’s almost £10 million a year for ministers’ cars. I suspect it is much higher overall – most senior officials have them as well as the heads of the major quangos. It would not surprise me at all to learn that the Government Car Service cost between £50 million and £100 million” (Ed Vaizey)

I actually agree with you on this – although I do think there are times when it would make more sense for ministers to get the train to go on their ministerial visits just because it would be quicker and less expensive. I think a bit of common sense is all that’s needed.

Thing is that if there were no cars, ministers would claim mileage or transport costs so I’m not sure it would be anything other than a gimmick.

However, the thought of PM David Cameron (which in principle makes me ill, but bear with me) riding round London with his red boxes on his bike does make me laugh. Of course it ain’t going to happen.

It’s the sort of thing that they will say in the run up to an election but there will be some security reason for it not to happen once they’re in power:-)

The vast sums of my money that you and your MP colleagues manage to pork their way through makes me (sic).

“it endangers ministerial cars and the jobs of their drivers”

Takes onion out of pocket.

“Instead of thinking up gimmicks to catch the headlines, perhaps Tory MPs might start thinking about… oh, I don’t know… some policies, perhaps?”

All Brown has to do is call an election and you’ll hear some. Until then, why announce policies that Labour will simply nick?

I think many Tories hanker after the “good old” days when only wealthy gents could afford to be MPs or councillors. Such chaps could afford to run their own posh motors and employ chauffeurs…

I think it’s just a case of trying to prod Labour when they’re perceived to be wounded. It’s baiting, pure and simple. I honestly must admit that I have come to expect no less from this current crop of cybertories and suave ne’er-do-wells.

Slightly off-topic Tom, but what do you reckon to this – http://www.fetlersblog.co.uk/archives/583

I was bored and while I’m not a pollster or statistician, it certainly does strike me as interesting when compared to the poll numbers! Granted my analysis could well be deeply flawed, after all – what do I know?!

Because if you’ve just had a 12- or a 14- hour day and you’re leaving the Commons after the last vote, it’s wonderful to be able to slide into the seat of a car and relax while you’re taken home, knowing you’ll be lucky to get six hours sleep before your ministerial diary kicks in the next morning. I don’t grudge that privilege to any serving minister and I wouldn’t begrudge any future Tory minister, either.”

Yes. Life is shit, isn’t it? Isn’t it awful when our elected Masters have to work as hard as their citizens? My heart bleeds for you, I mean, I do 12 or 14 hour days as a self-employed Web Developer for substantially less than a Ministerial Wage but I have to struggle by without a gratis car, bloated pension and second home…

@ Brian Hughes

Yes, clearly the kind of Parliament that guided us successfully through two World Wars and created a British Global Empire, all administered by a Civil Service that was barely 10% the size of the current one, has nothing in its favour.

Damn those fuddy-duddies for hankering back to a time when Britain was a superpower run by philanthropic reformists rather than by the current crop of venal pygmies.

Present company probably excepted.

I have no objection to ministers, even junior ministers having company cars.

Though the long hours argument doesn’t really wash. Aren’t normal MPs also subject to onerous hours having to wait around in subsidised bars and restaurants waiting to run at the sound of the bell calling them to vote?

I’ld just ask; is the car and chauffer a taxable perk, if it is no problem if it isn’t why not?

As you will know, in the private sector company cars are taxed at a ridiculous level.

Now, I suspect, that CEOs, COOs etc of large corporations wangle their way around these taxes but ministers of the crown should be setting a higher standard.

If it is right to tax company cars then it is right to tax ministers cars as they are no different from company cars.

Funnily enough you can pull all the numbers you need out of the Annual Report of the Government Car and Despatch Agency, here. Government mail and car services are handily structured as a Department of Transport Executive Agency and they publish separate figures.

In 2007/8 they had 171 cars and 168 drivers and they cost £14.0 million to run. That is about £82K per car but I guess they don’t have all the cars and the drivers on the road at the same time so they probably have nearer to 150 cars out there operating and the effective cost per car is slightly higher than £82K but probably not quite as much as £100K. They bought £1.0 million worth of new cars and employed five managers who earnt over £50K in 2007/8. All employees are on civil service pensions. Nice work if you can get it.

It sounds like you could keep 50 odd cars for the real big knobs, lose 120 or so and save £10 million. They also have large premises at 46 Ponton Road in Vauxhall which would probably make a nice capital receipt thank you.

Posted this at Mr Dale’s blog. So gonna put it here as well…

Tom Harris said “A ministerial car is a perk. Because if you’ve just had a 12- or a 14- hour day… it’s wonderful to be able to slide into the seat of a car and relax while you’re taken home, knowing you’ll be lucky to get six hours sleep before your ministerial diary kicks in the next morning.”

Aww, poor widdle Tom. Forgive me if I smash the violins into pieces before the orchestra arrives. Last year, I got a job working at an arcade on a holiday park. I would often during the summer have to start work at 9am and wouldn’t be finished until about 1am sometimes. When you take off breaks, that’s about 14 hours per day.

However, there are two big differences. One, I was earning minimum wage, not the £125k per year that ministers get. Two, I didn’t have a great big car ready to ferry me around at the expense of my own employer – I had to do all the driving myself. I often used to get less than 6 hours sleep a night myself, and usually got no thanks whatsoever for it. Ministers have it pretty damn good, I’d say.

By the way, the word verificiation when I attempted to post this at Mr Dale’s blog was “wimpi”. Exactly what you are, Tom Harris.

Chris Wills at 7.39: No, a minister doesn’t pay tax on his car because he can’t use it for private or constituency business.

I don’t think it’s the media that are encouraging an anti-politics culture. They’re just reporting the outrageous behaviour of politicians. Have you seen the articles today on MEP’s fiddling their expenses? As for the ministerial cars, I’ve no problem with them, it’s the 100K plus claims for expenses for using a spare room that are anger inducing.

Tom, fair enough

I really hate to do this. I think a part of me right now is being ill somewhere. In fact, as I type this, my right arm keeps trying to strangle me. But I still have to defend this matter. I’m in the process of starting my own business. It’s hard work, as anyone can tell you.
But I don’t run the country. If I don’t get driven home after a function (not that I can even drive myself; getting a licence this year is a goal), and end up missing a deadline, only myself and the client suffer. Mostly me, really.
No diplomatic incidents will result.
No dodgy laws will get passed.
No companies will close as a result of me offending a foreign dignitary.
Why? Because I’m not running the country. It’s an important job. I’m not trying to lessen the hard work of the posters here. But whilst some of them might be in a position of importance over the fates of one or two people; a mistake could even harm those 2 or 3, it won’t effect millions. Unless they like work in a genetics lab and REALLY mess up. But that’s a pretty rare likelihood I’d say.
No, Ministers run the nation, and if those cars help them to a huge amount, go for it. Just sort out the damned fraudulent expenses claims, huh?

Tom,

“Yes, a ministerial car is a perk. So let’s hear it for perks! Because if you’ve just had a 12- or a 14- hour day and you’re leaving the Commons after the last vote, it’s wonderful to be able to slide into the seat of a car and relax while you’re taken home, knowing you’ll be lucky to get six hours sleep before your ministerial diary kicks in the next morning. I don’t grudge that privilege to any serving minister and I wouldn’t begrudge any future Tory minister, either.”

Sorry being driven from your place of work (Westminster)to your home, even your second home, is personal use and is taxable.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM23080.htm

Presumably you self assessed at the end of January?

I don’t have any objection to MPs and ministers being paid a lot more. I don’t object to them having some privacy. The problem is they just can’t be trusted.

Its Sunday. Has Jacqui Smith still not resigned? Why is the Shadow Home Secretary not after blood? Oh, oh dear.

“I’m not trying to lessen the hard work of the posters here. But whilst some of them might be in a position of importance over the fates of one or two people; a mistake could even harm those 2 or 3, it won’t effect millions” (Math Campbell)

SMEs comprise over 99.9% of UK’s businesses. Our sector is the seedbed of the giant corporations – e.g. Tesco began with founder, Cohen, selling a few pounds of peas from a small holding in Little Totham. SMEs employ around 60% of UK’s workforce.

We pay tax on our company cars and I have yet to see one of us driven to work by a chauffeur.

Once again, I agree with Tom Harris.

I can’t believe the Tories of all people are whining about this. How pathetic, and down right hypocritical.

Since when did the Tories become the Lib Dems?

In every country in the world high elected office is recognised for what it is, a privilage with status, rewarded with a high salary, good pention, and perks (some are even practical, AKA, the ministerial car).

Not in this country though. We’re envious and begrudge anyone with something we don’t have. We like to take things away from those who have them, and people paid and/or maintained by the public purse should live like monks, never getting more than the absolute bare minumum they require.

Let’s look at that. If the people really had their way as far as MP’s go, despite the fact they are already FAR worse off then their international counterparts, who the hell would want to be an MP? Politics would be the plaything of those with money, as they wouldn’t need the taxpayer to fund their lifestyles, and people of very low ability, as everyone else would say “sod that”, and go and get a real job with more money.

Seems to me that such a system would benefit the Tories? Oh wait, no wonder they are in favour of such sweeping reform!

The attitude of the people in this country can be best described with a line from Jeremy Clarkson of all people. He said, when he went to the states and a guy in a limo pulled up, and someone very wealthy got out, those around thought, “One day, that’ll be ME”. In this country they think, “One day, i’ll have the BASTARD out of that!”

Spot on Jeremy. Spot on.

I have no problem with this if it is taxed as a benifit in kind like the rest of us.
Can you confirm you pay income tax for this Tom as I suspect you dont.

I have jusr read previous post were you confirm it is not taxed.

Why can you not get a taxi, or a group mini bus to drop you all off.

You should be setting an example to us plebs.

Also, if all SMEs went on strike tomorrow, Britain would seize up.

There wouldn’t be a loaf of bread or much of anything else in the shops the day after, because SMEs grow, husband, process, wash, pick and pack, print, load, unload, manufacture, warehouse, courier and transport almost everything the people of Britain consume. We also supply a substantial proportion of the services UK uses.

If, however, all Ministers went on strike tomorrow, would we even notice? Did the country seize up during parliament’s 11 week Summer break?

Can you recall the “good old” days when the left were sometimes accused of playing the politics of envy?

How times change! Many of the right-leaning miserablists who comment here seem, as your 8:01 (precisely?) update suggests, to be tragically consumed by envy…

“Since when did the Tories become the Lib Dems?” (John)

Er…could that be since millions of Liberals like me began to support David Cameron and he transformed his party into the liberal Conservatives?

Isn’t Jeremy Clarkson an SME, by the way?

Ms Merkel said: “As far as uncooperative players, tax havens or areas where non-transparent business is carried out are concerned, we need to develop sanction mechanisms. These must be made very concrete,” Mrs Merkel said (BBC)

Does that mean an end to the Ministerial tax haven – and Ms Smith’s? Silly me, no, no, no, we can’t have that, can we? Ministers need these little bonuses to motivate them.

And to think that for most of the 19th Century, PAYING MPs was considered a radical, nay revolutionary step. How far have we regressed…

Looks like it’s not going to be so much fun on the Government front benches as many of the Shadow Cabinet may have been anticipating: no second jobs, no flash car with driver, no freebies on executive jets, or parties on yachts, and then having to send offspring to state schools.

Is it really worth it?

See, now I, as a member of a party that hasn’t got the faintest hope of ever being the Government of the UK (we’re quite content to merely go for all of Scotland, with independence as the light at the end of the increasingly dark tunnel), I can take a step back here and smell the proverbial coffee on this one.
And what the arabica is telling me here is that the Tories, a party well known for their “Aah, 5 double brandy’s and a whore, will you Jeffery? And put it on the expenses, Johnny Pleb won’t mind” attitude are using this whole “minister’s car” row as a handy route to attack the Govt.
It stinks. It’s not like there aren’t a ton of extremely good attacks one can make against Labour. Off the top of my head as I’m trying to eat my noodles here, I can think of torture-allegations, peerages-for-cash (still going that one), laws-for-cash, second-home-expenses (wouldn’t go buying any new stationary if I were you Jacqui), the state of the banks, the state of the wider economy, the EU constitution, welfare-reform, the ID card fiasco, the constant threat of police state Britain, in fact, pretty much everything bar the roads and public health (with apologies to Monty Python).

And the Tories pick ministerial cars.

oh, and to those on about the role of SME’s in our economy: indeed, you are very important. But my point was that you aren’t running the country. You, personally are not responsible if a troop of squaddies don’t get their body armour n Afghanistan, or if there’s an outbreak of some superbug because you approved a cut to the cleaning budget. With power comes a few nice perks. I doubt it was the thing they thought of when they signed on to Government, “Ooooh, I’ll get a chauffeur driven Jag to go with the public pressure, the constant infighting and the 18 hour non-stop day! Sounds great! Sign me up Gordon!”.

Perssonally, it’d make the job a little easier, make me a little less surly. I hope to find out one day as I’d like to run for some form of office. Not because I want a chaffeur driven Jag or a free kitchen from John Lewis, but because I’d like to serve the country, and since my eyesight is too naff now to go back in the army or TA, I gueess public office it is.
Maybe even some of the Labour folks thought that too.
Obviously they’re all wrong, since they’re Labour but maybe their intentions were good. (and after all the agreeing I’ve done with you today Tom that’s the best you’re getting).

I think the argument seems to be less “I don’t have a chauffeur driven car, why should you?” and more, “You get paid £150K a year and pork your way through a similar amount in expenses payments, you can afford to pay for your own bloody car…”.

Senior executives in private firms are, of course, routinely given the benefit of a car and driver, to take them home after work or after work functions. This is a business thing, and doesn’t extend to personal trips.

Guess what? It’s considered a taxable benefit in kind. It’s exactly analagous with a ministerial limo – which isn’t taxable. One rule for them…

And look, if you want to get a driver to pick you up after work and take you home, it’s pretty simple – get a taxi. It’d be a lot cheaper for all of us.

We keep hearing about this anti-politics culture and how it’s fed by the media and the Tories and just about everybody except The Labour Party.

I think there’s a bit of confusion here and I imagine people like Tom and other establishmentarians would refer to the civil rights movement and anti-war movements of the 60’s examples of anti-politics culture…

Going back a bit further, by the same token, you might say those who wanted to abolish slavery served an anti-politics culture.

It goes without saying, though, that there are many of us who would regard opposition to prevailing practices and policies healthy, especially where moral and ethical questions arise, in a democratic system.

If the anti-politics culture label has any meaning, though, it ought to take account of those who have given up completely in politics and politicians on one hand, and those who have made the sensible decision to channel their energies into areas where their efforts might possibly amount to something on the other.

In both cases, the underlying motivations are obvious and the same: corruption in politics, decisions like Iraq that fly in the face of democracy, tacit support of rogue states like Israel, sabre rattling generally in international relations, the environment, disgraceful industrial relations and working conditions, poverty, the price put on education, etc, etc. Crucially, there is no real hope of any mainstream party seriously addressing any of the above in the lifetime of anyone who reads this post…

So, if you want to avoid war, promote peace, want to give people generally a chance of a dignified life, believe education should be open to all regardless of how much you are prepared to pay, think levels of poverty in the UK today are a disgrace, want to do something meaningful about the state of the environment, etc, etc, you’re probably smart enough to know that none mainstream parties will do anything to deal with those issues and are guilty of being a member of the anti-politics culture. Welcome aboard.

Do ministers pay tax on their perks like ministerial cars, as we do in the private sector?

On a related subject, what are your thoughts as to whether Jacqui Smith followed the _spirit_ of the law?