JACK Straw got a predictably sceptical and hostile response to his article in yesterday’s Guardian defending the government’s record on civil liberties.
I didn’t even have to read more than three or four of the responses in the comments thread to be able to recite the litany of grievance: RIPA, ID cards, CCTV, no protest without authorisation within a mile of parliament, etc.
But Jack’s argument needed to be made, and the strength of feeling against his case doesn’t detract from the truth that Labour’s record on civil liberties is a good one. He cites the Human Rights Act, which is just as well, because none of our opponents ever does. Left-wing critics ignore it while right-wingers whinge about it and want it abolished altogether.
Then there’s the Freedom of Information Act, which is only grudgingly acknowledged by our detractors as a significant achievement. Undoubtedly there are those who claim that the government is itself undermining its own legislation by, for example, refusing to publish the Cabinet minutes concerning Iraq. But since no government could ever satisfy every “FOI campaigner” (is that actually a job these days?) — there are often very sound reasons for not publishing every single piece of information held by the government — then I hope ministers won’t be losing any sleep over that particular source of criticism.
But surely the fundamental point to make is that virtually none of those who blog about our alleged decent into a police state has experienced any perceptible diminution in their own personal freedoms. Libertarians screech hysterically across the blogscape about it with all the relevance of those blokes who wear those “The end is nigh” sandwich boards.
Who, exactly, has suffered unjustified intrusion into their private life through local council monitoring of their emails? Who has been prevented from discretely pursuing their day-to-day business because of the presence of CCTV cameras? Even the extension of detention without charge to 28 days has not resulted in the legions of innocents behind bars which were predicted by the likes of Liberty.
Whatever the alleged misuse of anti-terrorist legislation, no responsible government could do anything but respond in legislative terms to the threat from islamist terrorism (and usually when a politician says something along those lines, they are met with the response: “The islamist threat is no worse than the threat we faced from the IRA.” Just because those who repeat such nonsense actually believe it does not make it any less nonsense).
So isn’t it odd that when the subject of civil liberties in this country arises, the self-appointed guardians of our liberties (and thanks, by the way…) almost never voice a word of criticism of those who planned and supported the 7/7 attacks, reserving their most trenchant criticism instead for the efforts of our democratically-elected leaders to try to prevent further tragedies?
UPDATE at 12.05 am: So far we’ve got the expected themes in the comments thread — “first they came for…”, council officials using terrorism legislation, Walter Bloody Wolfgang… And who knew that photographing police officers was such a popular pastime?
But why is it that this subject ignites the blogscape while in the non-virtual world so few people seem to be concerned? I know I’ve received the odd letter of concern from constituents on the subject, but probably fewer than five in the last eight years, and none in the last year.
Anyway, I think I’d better get to bed: I can hear a humming, droning noise in the sky outside and I haven’t drawn my curtains yet…














Saturday 28 February 2009 at 10:40 am
The Ink Slinger at 10.37 – when you use capitalisation, does that mean you’re shouting at me?
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 4:46 pm
I’m trying to remember the instructions on fireworks from when I was a kid.
‘Light blue touchpaper and retire’ I think they were.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 4:47 pm
It’s been said before but it’s worth repeating: if you’ve nothing to hide, then you’ve nothing to fear. Just like speed cameras, if you don’t want to be caught, don’t break the law.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 4:47 pm
While I have some sympathy for your point of view on this one – I think the matters of genuine concern, of which there are a few, are masked in a lot of unnecessary paranoia – your final point is really quite silly.
Of course Liberty and other organizations like that don’t voice criticism of those who planned and organized the 7/7 attacks. Not only is such criticism not really their role, but it literally goes without saying. Terrorist attacks are disgusting. But they’re what we expect from terrorists, and criticism from their intended victims certainly isn’t going to change their mind. Criticism of a democratic government, on the other hand, may produce some result.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 4:48 pm
Tom, the danger is not so much this Government would abuse the powers it has given itself, more it could.
My worries on civil liberties centre little on Jack Straw, Jacqui Smith and Gordon Brown making use of the powers. But the fact they are on the books at all means someone could in the future abuse them.
No peace time Government has any business passing some of the legislation which has been undertaken. Some of it has rightly been knocked back. But plenty is still available, should ministers wish.
Government has no place even making it possible for ministers now or in the future to lock people up without trial, to monitor their movements and communication with the stroke of pen.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 4:57 pm
Our Liberties are Safe with Labour?
And the Royal Mail would be safe in the public sector under Labour?
And the British People would get a referendum on the EU Constitution (Lisbon treaty)?
Labour have as much intention of preserving our liberty as they do of being honest with the electorate. In other words no intention at all!
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 5:02 pm
I have noticed a “diminution” in my personal freedom. So have at least 66,000 other people.
I’ve been harassed by the British Transport Police using the insidious Section 44 of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2000.
See http://qik.com/video/203590
The BTP say that they harass around 66,000 people per year – with no noticeable increase in criminal / terrorist detection!
Furthermore, I don’t know if I have “suffered unjustified intrusion into their private life through local council monitoring of [my] emails”. How would I know? How would anyone know? Why would anyone need this information and keep it secret from us?
The very fact that this is a possibility is a grave attack on my liberty regardless of whether I am specifically targeted. My behaviour is self-modified under the very threat of this intrusion.
Finally, please can you tell me exactly what the difference is between the Islamist terrorists of today and the Christian terrorist we had in yesteryear? The “Muslims” seem no more fanatic and deadly than the “Catholics”. And, yes, I condemn anyone, without reservation who results to bombing and maiming in order to impose their world view.
Sorry for the minor rant – I’m a committed liberal / centrist who feels betrayed by the Labour party.
T
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 5:05 pm
“Finally, please can you tell me exactly what the difference is between the Islamist terrorists of today and the Christian terrorist we had in yesteryear?”
Certainly.
Islamists (as opposed to Muslims) are driven by a political and religious belief that non-Muslims, simply by virtue of being non-Muslim, are worthy of death. They believe in the re-establishment of the Caliphate – the worldwide Muslim theocratic government – and believe violence is a justified means to that end.
The IRA terrorists’ aims were entirely political. It was possible to negotiate with them because their aims were negotiable. Crucially, they did not, except by accident, use suicide bombers.
One single attack by islamists on 7/7 resulted in a higher death toll than any single attack by the IRA or other Irish republicans during the entire duration of the Troubles.
So, yes, threat from islamism is of an entirely different order from that posed by Irish republicanism. But an even greater threat is a stubborn refusal to accept this fact.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 5:08 pm
“if you’ve nothing to hide, then you’ve nothing to fear.”
Can I assume that you have no curtains in your house, that you happily hand out your PIN to anyone who asks, and that you’d have no objection if I popped round for a riffle through your personal mail?
Or could it be that you have a legitimate interest in protecting your privacy, and that insinuating that this makes you a criminal is both disingenuous and insulting?
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 5:15 pm
Jack Straw said this:
‘Part of the problem for those who question this is that their analysis assumes the loss of a golden age of liberty. No such age existed. The 60s, 70s and 80s were the decades of the informal “judges’ rules”, the absence of statutory protections for suspects, “fitting up”, egregious abuses of power, miscarriages of justice, arbitrary actions by police, security and intelligence agencies, phone tapping without any basis in statute law or any legal protection for the citizen whatsoever, gaping holes where there should have been parliamentary scrutiny’.
I agree with every word of that.
Once again, familarise yourselves, if you haven’t done so, with the case of the Birmingham Six. But there are literally tens of thousands of cases of the abuse of police power from the good old days, judges siding automatically with the police accounts and dismissing countervailing evidence. That sounds like a police state to me but that was 30 years ago and forever before that. It still happens, but it happens a lot less frequently.
You know whose behaviour is much more closely monitored now? That of the police. The papperwork is a bind for them and I sympathise but it protects them and us.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 5:34 pm
Two quick points.
1) Have we tried negotiating with AQ? How are their aims non-negotiable? I always thought their main bone of contention was the presence of “us” in “their” lands? I really don’t know – that’s why I’m asking.
2)
Not for want of trying! 29 people killed in the Omagh bombing. Around 300 injured. From one bomb. As opposed to 55 from 5(?) bombers. Better “success” ratio from the IRA…
~1,800 deaths in the UK / Ireland by various Christian terrorist groups.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 5:34 pm
I really don’t think anyone would mind if the diminuation of civil liberties was targetted exclusively at the fight against terrorism but this is not what is happening. For instance the abuse of RIPA – a law that was pushed through Parliament under the “stop terrorism” banner – by local authorities (remember Poole?) as well as the extension of RIPA from the original 9 organisation to almost 800 (including for God’s sake the Chief Inspector of Schools (why?!!)) cannot be justified under the prvention of terrorism banner.
Police, security services fine.. Local Authorities? No chance!
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 5:52 pm
Let’s cut to the chase. Over Eight Thousand people each year die of one hospital borne bacterium – or at least, it is recorded on their death certificates as a contributing factor.
What is the number of people who have died in this country as a result of Islamic terrorism? 100? 200?
You have more chance of dying in an airplane due to engine failure than terrorism. Etc., etc.
On the back of these terrible personal tragedies, the entire country has been held to ransome and personal liberty has in fact been curtailed, or may well be. The Government can call a state of emergency and do what it likes, without a vote in the HoC, using the Civil Contingencies Act. During the duration of its instigation, voting on the rights and wrongs of this is forbidden. For the duration of these powers, all our rights, except the Human Rights Act, are suspended, including Habeas Corpus.
Now there is a familiar argument, and it goes like this:
“The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures…The number of cases in which an internal necessity exists for having recourse to such a law is in itself a limited one”
Sounds fair enough and credible. Except that this is a word for word translation of Hitler’s address to Reichstag, almost 76 years ago to the day.
I shall be praying that your Party is removed from office in such a way that it never has the chance again to destroy our Liberty on a premise that is thinner than Hitler’s, and probably just as insincere.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 6:22 pm
Interesting to note that the IRA gets a mention. I’m old enough to recall the annual, disgusting spectacle of your comrades fighting tooth and nail to try to prevent the renewal of what, by today’s standards could be considered modest and some would argue positively benign anti terror measures; and at a time when people, including two of my friends were being routinely murdered and maimed by a determined enemy. True the ira didn’t use what we today call suicide bombers, but regardless of the delivery method, the outcomes of when high explosives or bullets meet skin and bone are typically the same.
The kindest interpretation that could be applied to the response of new labour to the threat of today is that, as a result of being tied in the knots of a politically correct desire not to offend any single group, their response does not have the focus of previous labour or tory governments. As a result, everyone is made to suffer for the actions, real and/or imagined of a very narrow section of society. During the “troubles”, I’ll bet that very few citizens not directly or even indirectly involved were subjected to the kinds of state sponsored intrusions and inconveniences that all of us now face. Whether it is people like my pensioner parents being forced to endure the “one policy fits all” indignity of current air travel or the rest of us having our email and telephone traffic routinely parsed for clues as to our involvement in global jihad.
The other side of the argument is that this blunderbuss, one policy fits all approach to “keeping us safe” has very little to do with our safety and everything to do with keeping us in our place. In other words, what we are experiencing is merely what left wing, authoritarian regimes do, when they achieve power and are allowed to retain it for any length of time.
As for not releasing the cabinet minutes related to the run up to the Iraq war, us sceptics would say that if they showed the cabinet in a good light, they’d have been in the public domain years ago.
I’m writing this on my crackberry from the balcony of my hotel room in France. There’s not a cctv camera in sight and I probably don’t have to worry that the inclusion of the word jihad in my post will trouble the authorities – at least not until my return to blighty.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 6:33 pm
“I didn’t even have to read more than three or four of the responses in the comments thread to be able to recite the litany of grievance: RIPA, ID cards, CCTV, no protest without authorisation within a mile of parliament, etc.”
Yes, that’s right, pay no attention to the concerns of the well-informed public on these matters. Not being members of the political class like you, they lack the superior brains required to understand why all of these measures are absolutely necessary to protect us. Britain is better than North Korea, ergo it is not a police state, right?
Curiously, less than a week ago, David Blunkett made a speech about “Big Brother Britain”. The man who forced ID cards on us has decided he doesn’t like them after all. http://tinyurl.com/daf3ul
“So isn’t it odd that when the subject of civil liberties in this country arises, the self-appointed guardians of our liberties (and thanks, by the way…) almost never voice a word of criticism of those who planned and supported the 7/7 attacks, reserving their most trenchant criticism instead for the efforts of our democratically-elected leaders to try to prevent further tragedies?”
Go and arrest Blunkett, search his house, take his DNA and detain him without trial, since opposition to ID cards is a clear indication of a terrorist sympathiser. He has a beard, too, what more proof do you need?
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 6:38 pm
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7351252.stm
See http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/official-harassment-of-photographers-in-the-uk-i-have-a-little-list/
See http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2009/jan/07/trainspotter-arrest
See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/photographers-criminalised-as-police-abuse-antiterror-laws-1228149.html
See http://www.thebfp.com/index.php?page=8&newsid=8
Tom
When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee and admit that though the anti terror legislation may well be well intentioned, there are certain members of officialdom have a complete lack of common sense or a complete lack of respect for the right of inocent citizens to go about their lawful business.
I am no expert on terrorism, but I would have thought that any terrorist photographing possible locations is going to use something discreet like a camera phone, again by targetting photographers certain Police Officers seem to leave their common sense at home.
BTW
Can you answer the following question.
In your opinion was the treatment of Walter Wolfgang at the Labour Party Conference justified or not?
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 6:44 pm
What is the number of people who have died in this country as a result of Islamic terrorism? 100? 200?
Leave aside the question of how many more might it have been without countermeasures. Terrorism does not work merely by killing people. The clue to how it works is in the name. Its goal is to destabilise and ultimately destroy the morale of its target. A government which took no action against that would be complicit in that aim. Any government can wipe out all civil liberties at a stoke in a time of emergency without the gradual introduction of various laws.
Hitler had most of the power he was to have from 1933 – with Hindeburg gone he had it all. He began using it immediately. His actions and propaganda were aimed not at the suppression of civil liberties merely to consolidate his power in Germany – it was part of his preparation for war from the start. Read Mein Kampf. Nobody could say he hadn’t made his intentions clear well in advance.
Gordon Brown is a moron.
Now, I’ll wait for the door to be broken down, because if this government is totalitarian that’s what will be going to happen soon. That would certainly have happened if I’d shouted that about Hitler out of the window in Berlin in late 1933.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 6:55 pm
Stu: “In your opinion was the treatment of Walter Wolfgang at the Labour Party Conference justified or not?”
No.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 7:22 pm
I can imagine a scenario – quite an ironic one – where a future Conservative Government uses these draconian powers illegitimately.
What will you do then?
You see, I don’t just not trust Labour. I don’t trust most of you.
Except for one thing. On that day, when you realise what is going down, when you see innocents thrown into jail, when old men get arrested under the legislation, like Walter Wolfgang, you, Tom and Diane Abbott, and the usual suspects, will stand up and join the barricades.
I really hope so. Or we are all really fu..
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 7:47 pm
I told you you should have watched the rugby.
Look what you’ve started!
I’m surprised anyone can bear to read the comments on CIF these days. There are some extremely unpleasant posts on there, many of them nothing to do with addressing the debate, or engaging with others, but just full of spite and venom. Which is a great shame, as it could be a real forum for political discussion.
Like this site is!
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 8:20 pm
OK, Tom. There’s no problem with the intrusive State. The Chancellor’s economic predictions of a tiny downward blip followed by economic recovery later this year are spot-on. Iraq was full of WMDs. Gordon’s claim that he didn’t wreck the economy but that a big boy did it and ran away is the truth. Jacqui Smith is as honest as the day is long. And Labour are going to win a fourth term.
I’m sure it must all be true in a parallel universe somewhere.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 8:26 pm
When the Guardianistas are apoplectic with rage as they most certainly are, then the Government’s in trouble (the one dissenting voice was the poster who thinks that, because things aren’t as bad in the UK as in Korea or Saudi, we should be damned grateful and enjoy the loveliness of life in today’s UK)!!!
Most of the civil liberties which the Government has eroded have been in the name of protecting us from Islamist terrorists but, if what you say about them is true, Tom, then this is the War That Can Never Be Won by attempts to subvert planned atrocities: only when every non-Muslim has been eradicated will there be no threat of terrorism and, until then, every suicide bomber who dies will be replaced by another would-be martyr. We can only win some battles in this War with the price being ever-increasing curtailment of our liberties and our right to go about our business without being tracked and monitored as objects of suspicion. People hate it and are now, quite rightly, asking whether the measures are even effective in subverting potential attacks. Then there is the matter of the legislation being misused by all and sundry for minor misdemeanours…
I also think, Tom, that your explanation begs the question if Islamists are intent on establishing a world Islamic Theocracy, why would they start by targetting our little island at the expense of focussing their attention on, say, the Continent – if you’re going for domination start with large, powerful countries and the smaller, weaker ones will surrender. Might we be deserving of special attention, together with the USA, because we invaded Iraq? If so, then this Government is responsible for not only failing to protect, but actually endangering its people – and on the basis of a chimera.
It would seem that the War can only be won bloodlessly by appeasement. Should we all convert to Islam now or wait until UK Muslims are in the majority which demographic predictors suggest will happen in the not too distant future? At which point will the UK cease to be a Christian country and officially become a Muslim one, because that will have to happen for true appeasement of the extremists?
God knows what the answer is but I certainly think that the terrorists have already won because I truly feel that the quality of my life is suffering from the measures implemented by the Government ‘to protect me’.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 8:33 pm
Hi Tom, thanks for the response.
Given that you agree with me that there have been abuses of anti terror legislation, would you also agree with me that its important that Government tackles these abuses (or more likely lack of common sense and good judgement) in order for the electorate to gain full confidence of not only the legislation but also in the Government and the Police not withstanding the other security services.
Yes I supported the 42 day detention issue, I also fully support cctv in our communities as well as most other tools to keep us safe, but as with all powerful tools they need to used with care and I would take a very dim view indeed if cctv was being used to catch somebodys dog fouling somewhere (annoying as it is) for example.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 8:44 pm
I trust both Labour and the Conservatives fully on civil liberties.
And pigs fly.
Anyone who trusts any bunch of politicians on their own – to do the right thing – just needs to look at their expenses.
They have a demonstrable lack of morals and a demonstrable lack of courage and willingness to stand up to bullying.. see Mr Martin’s reaction to the police searching MP’s offices in the House Of Commons.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.. and with the current Government how true that is.
Bargepole job.
(This is a sanitised version of my real thoughts on this issue which are largely unprintable)
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 8:48 pm
@Rapunzel 7.47pm – I must say that I thought that the comments following Straw’s article were remarkably devoid of unpleasantness. My impression was of people who felt utterly betrayed and extremely angry but articulate enough to express their rage.
(For unpleasantness on CIF look out for articles that suggest that the smoking ban was folly, you’d be surprised at how vehemently people demand that businesses go to the wall and people be thrown outside to use a legal product so that they don’t have to wash their hair after a couple of hours in the pub – never seems to occur to them that there are other options).
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 9:06 pm
I’ve experienced diminuition in my personal freedom and privacy as a result of your government’s disgraceful abuse of its power, Tom.
Every time I drive or walk in the countryside around here I’m confronted by signs notifying me that I’m likely to be watched by your flying, pilotless spy drones. I can’t even have a pee behind a hedge secure in the knowledge that I’m not being filmed.
Where is Labour’s electoral mandate for those spy drones?
I cried tears of anger and horror over what your party did to 83 year old Walter Wolfgang. The freedom of all of us is diminished by that disgusting abuse of power.
I cried too when you arrested a woman for merely having the decency and humanity to pray at the Cenotaph for our service people killed in Iraq.
Where was your mandate for those abuses? Fact is, you never had one.
My privacy, and that of many hundreds of hard working and innocent people who have registered for work with me or who work for me has been invaded on the direct authority of your government.
A local authority’s housing benefits fraud department disgracefully demanded all of our personal details – names, addresses, NI numbers, job application and work histories and pay histories in order to trawl through these on the sly in the hope it MIGHT catch a housing benefit fraud. The vast majority of us do not even live in that local authority’s town.
Along with millions of other innocent UK citizens, I refuse to have an ID Card and have made the personal decision to go to prison rather that be forced to have one. I feel sick to my stomach that I may have to fight my authoritarian government in this way. I’m hard working and law abiding and going to prison is the last thing I want or need. But I will not relinquish the freedom my parents and millions of other British people and allies fought for and made huge sacrifices for, so you leave me no choice.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 9:19 pm
Aunti Flo: “pilotless spy drones”?
And as for Walter Wolfgang – oh, let it go, for crying out loud! It was a stupid over-reaction by the Labour Party, ok? It was not an indication of the onset of a police state, for goodness sake.
“I cried too when you arrested a woman for merely having the decency and humanity to pray at the Cenotaph for our service people killed in Iraq.”
She was not arrested for that – she was arrested because she deliberately failed to apply for permission to stage a demonstration in a sensitive location. That is a requirement that’s been in force in Glasgow city centre for decades. It was a PR stunt and a successful one.
“I refuse to have an ID Card”. Fair enoiugh, Flo, but your principled stand might be more impressive if ID cards had actually been introduced and you had already been asked to carry one.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 9:37 pm
I’m an amateur photographer of old churches, historic towns and villages, Tom. That’s how I spend my spare time.
Or rather, that’s what I used to do in my spare time. Amateur photographers are so harassed by the police these days that we’re beginning to feel that photography has been unofficially declared an illegal activity.
Then there’s this new law against photographing the police – on penalty of a criminal record and up to 10 years imprisonment. Does that really mean that if I inadvertently capture a police officer in my photographs I can be banged up in chokey?
And what if the officer wears plain clothes as opposed to a uniform, am I still committing an offence if he/she walks into one of my pictures?
More freedom under this government? Pull the other one.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 9:51 pm
Aunti Flo: “pilotless spy drones”? (tom)
BBC News online. 21 May 2007:
“Pilotless police drone takes off
UK’s first police remote control helicopter has taken off. Merseyside police are using the spy drone fitted with CCTV cameras mainly for tackling anti-social behaviour and public disorder. The machine is 1 m wide, weighs less than a bag of sugar and can record images from a height of 500 m. Originally used by the military…”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6676809.stm
These are already being used over my town and in my part of Essex.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 9:55 pm
Tom @ 28/2 9.19 pm
What was it Tony Blair said?
“Weak, weak, weak”
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 10:02 pm
Thought the Pullman piece would be too much for you to take, Tom.
That’s OK. I didn’t expect you to publish it anyway.
But you’re right about one thing. Your liberties are safe with Labour.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 10:13 pm
Tom, I’m afraid the Walter Wolfgang incident is now firmly etched in people’s minds as an example of a nefarious government and excusing it as an ‘over-reaction’ (to what, for God’’s sake) isn’t going to cut it.
As for the woman who stood at the Cenotaph who was arrested for failing to apply and receive permission to do so – since when did one person constitute a dangerous protest? Since when did failing to apply for permission consitute a crime worthy of arrest?
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 10:18 pm
@wrinkled weasel
We may yet come to miss Gordon Brown.
We heard these arguments before on the ‘1984 thread’. I have no sense that my civil liberties have been eroded. I feel much safer from the abuse of police power than at anyy time in my life. as Phil C before, certainly much safer than at the time of the 1980s miners’ strike. The power, as I said above, to wipe all liberties out in a day is, in any case, in the hands of any government. I think it’s called ‘the Royal Prerogative’. The terrorists would see that as furthering their aims greatly. But unless there’s a nuclear strike against our country (or nearest offer) it won’t happen.
That said, growing civil unrest is possible, even likely. Clydeside is getting redder again. There are more people shouting from soap boxes in Glasgow city centre than there have been for a while. Maybe this is Weimar. Let’s see just how bad this recession gets.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 10:20 pm
Oh, Lordy. This is the trouble with any debate about civil liberties: it attracts the “CIA has probes in my brain” crowd, which lets the government usefully pretend that everybody who opposes them is a raving lunatic. There’s so many strawmen in Tom’s (and Jack Straw’s) argument that we could put on a corn dollie festival right here.
For the record, to think that this government’s record on civil liberties is dreadful doesn’t require you to believe there was some mythical golden age of liberty in the UK (and to suggest otherwise is deeply insulting to the people who fought to overthrow miscarriages of justice, internment, and so on).
It also doesn’t require you to have had your front door personally kicked in by CO19. The fear is not what some malign totalitarian state could do with these powers; the fear is what some mid-level civil servant with access to the database and a gambling problem might be forced to do. It’s not the might of the state we fear; it’s the enabling of small, petty, destructive human actions.
Having said all that, Tom, I personally think that there was actually a golden age of civil liberties in this country. It was just a very short one. It was the first few years of this current Labour government. The reason people are so angry is that, having introduced FOI and the Human Rights Act, you’ve spent most of your time since trying to erode them as much as possible. If you think people seem more worked up about this than you think they have a right to be, it’s because they’re not just protesting bad policy – they feel personally betrayed, which is a whole new level of pissed-off.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 10:37 pm
How dare you, Mr. Harris, have the nerve to suggest that we are not aware of the threat posed by religious extremists?
HOW DARE YOU?
Every reply you have posted here has only served to reinforce the increasingly prevalent certainty that you and your gang of inadequate meddlers really do see populist, knee jerk, Sun-appeasing legislation as the only way to preserve your tenuous grip on power.
As Oliver Cromwell (who must be turning in his grave) once said in the chamber that your sorry excuse for a government so shamelessly defiles….
“You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately … Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!”
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 10:58 pm
“Our liberties are safe with Labour”
I don’t believe that for a second.
Lets first look at both your examples. Firstly, the Freedom of Information Act. It’s laudable in theory, I agree, but who asked for it? 99.9% of people will never make a FOI request, and the same percentage won’t care either. Also, any worthwhile request up to now has been denied or rejected on the legally accepted grounds that “obtaining the information would be disproportionally costly” or something along those lines. Subjective, but it works.
So, what’s the point in it? It’s a gimmick. One that no-one asked for, and has done no good that i’ve been made aware of. Can you think of an example where it’s been brilliant and or much needed?
Secondly, the Human Rights Act. Quite possibly the most arse ended piece of legislation since the Prescription Act of the 1800’s. No-one understands it, not public bodies, and least of all the police, who have used it as a reason for the most absurd of actions. Example, and one we’re all aware of, some moron climbs on top of roof, breaks tiles, throws them around shouting and swearing at passers by. Police go and get him a McDonalds, which he then eats before being coaxed down and arrested. The reason that he was bought a McDonalds? Human Rights. What a bunch of tosh. There isn’t a single provision of the HRA that can even remotely be interpreted that way. Next example, the HRA has given a statutory basis for criminals claiming compensation for injuries sustained in the course of a criminal offense. This was apparent from the early days, yet STILL nothings been down about it. So you better make sure your children put their toys away Tom, because if some scrote breaks into your property and slips on said toys, breaking a bone or worse, you (or your insurers if you can pin it on them) will be writing him a cheque.
So what about the negatives? Well, there’s the fact that it’s illegal to take photo’s now, but only if a police officer decides it is, and again, you only get to keep the photo’s if he decides you can. There have been numerous incidents where people standing outside Parliament with their cameras have been confronted, and either told to stop, or being forced to hand over film or erase photo’s they’ve taken from digital camera memory etc…
Then there’s anti-terror legislation. The abortion that it is. The legislation that allows you to arrest and imprison whoever you like while you work out whether they’ve done anything wrong or not.
This is what I don’t understand, maybe someone can help me. Why is it needed? If you reasonably believe that someone is a terrorist, then you have evidence pointing to this fact. If you have evidence that points to that, then they can be charged, and the existing system of a maximum of 96 hours detention without charge is more than adequate. So all anti-terror legislation does is allow fishing expiditions. The detention of someone while you go fishing for evidence that may or may not even exist. Great eh? Who would really object to 3 weeks in prison while the authorities work out whether you’ve done anything wrong or not?
I don’t want to just be attacking however, I want to offer a solution to very real problems. Well the Liberal Democrats are working on their own “Freedom Bill” already Tom, will you be supporting it?
http://freedom.libdems.org.uk/
If they can get that throught, I would literally jump for joy!
It covers most things, but I will also be contacting them about a “fruit of the poisonous tree” doctrine that should definately be in there. It ensures that evidence obtained though illegal means, such as a search without a warrant, or a warrant obtained through a lie etc.. cannot be used against the accused. For one it will put a stop to TV Licence “enforcers” forging interview notes for householders to get a warrent to search their premesis for TV’s. It will also put a stop to a policeman who barges into your home and decides to walk around for a quick look despite your objections. Well, it won’t stop him, but it WILL take away his incentive for doing it as anything he finds by doing that can no longer be used.
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 11:01 pm
Tom are you just trying to wind everyone up by your posts. You must get out more and talk to people living in England.
Just one small example. I have worn glasses since my mid 20s. I have had a passport for years. when I renewed last time it was rejected because I was wearing glasses on the submited photo as per all my passports before. I had to submit photos without glasses. so I had to have more photos taken and send them off. Its just quite ridiculous.
The driving licence that has to be replaced every 10 years. Cameras everywhere etc etc. Yet guilty people are left free and not sent back. You are just picking on the ordinary population to make us think you are doing something when in fact you are doing nothing to the people you should be.
Your whole government is just one big con. What you have done to this country is beyond belief.
As for the freedom of information act. It just counts for nothing as you just block what you want to, even though the ‘ independent’ commissioner
ordered it to be published. Yet another Labour con.
The list is just endless
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 11:04 pm
Tom: “the self-appointed guardians of our liberties… almost never voice a word of criticism of those who planned and supported the 7/7 attacks.”
Sir Ian Blair labelled the investigation into July 7th, ‘the biggest criminal inquiry in English history’, yet, days after July 7th, British Prime Minister Tony Blair had already refused the British people a Public Inquiry.
http://www.julyseventh.co.uk
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 11:28 pm
Mr Harris, can you tell us why Labour has felt the need to create over 3000 new criminal offences?
Others have talked about the police over-exerting themselves in the past. This was undoubtedly true which is why in 1984 Parliament passed the Police and Criminal Evidence Act which heavily restricted police powers and regulated the way in which evidence could be collected. The Labour government has systematically undermined these restrictions, handing more and more power to the police. More egregiously under Section 43 and 44 of the Terrorism Act.
Mr Harris, could you explain why these random search powers are needed and why Labour legislation has torn apart the careful balance of PACE?
Saturday 28 February 2009 at 11:34 pm
Who, exactly, has suffered unjustified intrusion into their private life through local council monitoring of their emails? Who has been prevented from discretely pursuing their day-to-day business because of the presence of CCTV cameras? Even the extension of detention without charge to 28 days has not resulted in the legions of innocents behind bars which were predicted by the likes of Liberty.
First they came…
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 1:43 am
I think the ideology of the terrorist is a moot point in relation to whether blanket surveillance and data mining will actually increase security. We are the nation furthest down this path, legislating to legally own the data the UK has been stockpiling for years wont help. Sure, CCTV is useful in the kind of pursuit scenarios you see in 24. How is recognition software going to really identify terrorists we know nothing about.
“Who has been prevented from discretely pursuing their day-to-day business because of the presence of CCTV cameras?”
The proposed systems digitally identifying people for will FAIL dismally at this. It will end up with another 65,000 prevented from discretely pursuing the day-to-day business, and 1,000 unlucky leisure drug enthusiasts.
I work with mobile and web technologies, and have had a keen interest in data security issues for over a decade. I attended the Government Symposium on Information Assurance (as a technician with the events company) in 2007 (as technician) and got to see the pick of the content in one way or another. The government will have to have come a very long way in under 2 years if it going to get close to keeping the way kids use technologies.
http://craphound.com/littlebrother/download/
The more blanket technologies costing billions of pounds are foisted on us, the more teenagers with Open Source smartphones are going to work around or subvert it. The link is to a download of Little Brother by Cory Doctorow, a cautionary tale that outlines the reasons why this approach is so flawed.
The security threat can only be countered with real intelligence. Pour money into schemes to engage people who are in danger of radicalisation. Help foster the good relations many of us have with Islamic people by prosecuting the Daily Mail for incitement of racial and religious hatred. Perhaps not selling any more arms to Israel might help a little too.
Make the investment in intelligent people to acquire intelligence, their judgment is going to be better than machines for some time yet. Our liberties are not safe at all with the legislation in place. Then again I have already accepted that there is no privacy. If I cared I would use encryption.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 2:20 am
“But why is it that this subject ignites the blogscape while in the non-virtual world so few people seem to be concerned? I know I’ve received the odd letter of concern from constituents on the subject, but probably fewer than five in the last eight years, and none in the last year.”
That’s because you don’t listen. I have written letters of that sort to my own (Labour) MP, and got nothing more than a form letter in reply. “Yes I understand your concerns about this, but terrorism is a serious threat and … pressing need to dismantle ancient liberties … vital for public safety … checks and balances to avoid abuses … my full support for the Prime Minister … etc. etc.” No evidence that he even read what I wrote. For instance I objected to ID cards on the grounds of the National ID Register; he dismissed this objection by saying that I would not, in fact, have to carry an ID card. Which is not what I said. What is the point of writing to my MP or turning up at his surgery, if he will just do what the PM tells him to do?
Blogs are slightly different because we have a better chance of an actual discussion rather than just a dismissal. It gives the impression that you will listen and respond, rather than just thinking “oh, another green biro letter from some civil liberties loony.” I am impressed that you have set up this blog and that you allow angry comments to appear on it. This is good stuff.
However, I cannot help thinking that you are still not listening. Plenty of people have raised good points about the actual effects of the New Labour anti-terror laws, and how they are widely used by the police to persecute people who are certainly not terrorists. The civil liberties people told you that this would happen, and it has, and you still are denying that there is a problem. If you New Labour lot listened to the people of Britain, then we wouldn’t be in such a mess. (The Iraq War is the most obvious case of this; we told you not to do it, you did it anyway.)
Most people do not vote because they feel that nobody in the Government is representing them. This is not a problem that you can correct via the media, spin-doctoring, and focus groups. You need to understand what people want, what they are upset about, and how you can help them. Just dismissing what they say is no use, because you’re not convincing anybody. The people are crying out for politicians who will listen to them instead of forming a clique that resists all outside opinion. That is why your constituents aren’t writing to you on this matter. That is why New Labour has failed, and our liberties are lost.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 2:33 am
You already know my opinions on this matter, as does your good friend Mr. Cairns, my local MP.
I’ve sent him several letters of a most amiable nature laying out in detail why exactly I feel that your party is no longer fit to govern, and that certain of your number do indeed deserve to be brought in front of a Judge to answer for their crimes.
He doesn’t agree with me, sadly.
As many have noted it’s not what Labour will do with these laws, it’s what a thousand little councillor’s of all stripes will do with the RIPA, or what a bored vindictive police officer may do away from the garish light of day.
I’ m thinking of founding a Temple for my faith, albeit a modified version of my pagan beliefs.
Inscribed in foot high letters on my stone altar shall be the holy laws of Math.
1) Do not permit a likeness or recording of yourself to be made by persons unknown to you, in a public place.
Obviously this one may mean we get a few less celebrities, although the persons unknown bit mean really it only excludes paparazzi and CCTV, so maybe it’ll help win over a few actors…
2) You will not permit agents of the state to demand your identity or to search you without just and reasonable cause.
3) You shall carry no papers of identity that do not relate to your employment. You do not need papers merely to exist.
I’ll get around to adding some more, probably fun ones about having orgies and drinking lots to attract some donations soon. Them gold-plated stone altars don’t pay for themselves you know….
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 5:56 am
Dear Mr. Harris MP.
What planet are you living on?
Perhaps you should visit other Blogs from time to time. Here is an entry on mine from last year.
It seems to me that little has changed since then, and Mr. Straw’s latest venture into the supression of information does little to justify your comments.
The road to surrender.
June 12th 2008.
With the 9 votes of the DUP, and with a majority of just 9, the Government survived in its battle to extend the pre-charge detention period for terror suspects to 42 days. 36 New Labour MP’s had the courage and backbone to resist the pressures, bribery and threats from Mr. Hoon and the other whips and vote against yet another measure from this Government designed to shift even more power into Whitehall.
We are allowing this country to drift into a situation where the clique of a few politicians and a small number of faceless individuals in the Civil Service, have complete and utter control over the lives of every man woman and child in Britain.
This political system is Stalinism.
Stalinism, “The bureaucratic, authoritarian exercise of state power”.
Stalinism, which has nothing to do with the left or right of politics, is concerned only with complete control of the nations population, production, economic facilities and judicial system.
It is only necessary to look back over the years since Tony Blair first became leader of the Labour Party and then Prime Minister, to see how any opposition within the party has been systematically destroyed and the rules have been changed to the advantage of the Blair/Brown cabal.
Then following the 1997 election, the majority of “New Labour” Members of Parliament, more interested in their expenses perks and benefits of the position than in any political argument, provided the voting majority in whichever lobby the whips instructed.
Measure upon measure, tax after tax, restriction after restriction introduced over the last eleven years in order to perpetuate the myth of progressive New Labour politics.
We are the most watched country in the world.
CCTV, e-mail monitoring, widespread telephone surveillance, Internet use and activity recorded, supermarket and other computerised transactions monitored, personal data held by numerous agencies and Government bodies, the list is almost endless.
Now, detention without charge for 42days. Another step on the road to surrender and the establishment of Stalinist United Kingdom.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 9:24 am
My view is that much of the legislation passed does have the potential to be oppressive if a government chose to do so. There is a smell of acquisition of information for information’s sake for which the justication of prevention of terrorism is used and now crime prevention is sneaking in. The granting of the right for bailiffs to de facto break in is an example of the weakening of rights to privacy.
My main concern is the extension of the ability of the police and other state officials to be officious – petty authoritarianism if you like. It is in things like taking photographs, the wearing of rude t shirts that the police feel able to indulge their officousness – don’t forget it was just this which ended ID cards in the 1950s. As a high heid yin you’re immune but as many comments above make clear this government has extended the power of the state and its agents to make itself felt.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:02 am
Tom,
If you’ve not already done so you and others might be interested in an article on liberty, not exactly on all fours with your own, by Philip Pullman – recently pulled by The Times. It is copyrighted but can be found in various places on the Net: Googling either of the bloggers prodicus or longrider will take you straight to it.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:30 am
@richard 9.24am – wrt private property rights, these were first breached, as far as I’m aware, with the introduction of the smoking ban and I think that it’s one reason why the ban is so important. The Government, in effect, denied the right of business owners to cater for their customers as they saw fit. That the ban was introduced on the basis of such shoddy ‘research’ that epidemiologists working in other fields believe that it brings the discipline as a whole into disrepute only adds insult to injury.
I’ve just heard Harriet Harman state quite adamantly that Sir Fred won’t be allowed to keep his pension despite the fact that the law would uphold his position. It would seem that, now that Gordon Brown is out for his blood, the Government might just change the law to stop the pension being payable. How predictable that they would do this rather than admit that they failed in due diligence. Nothing’s safe in Labour’s hands.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 12:07 pm
“But why is it that this subject ignites the blogscape while in the non-virtual world so few people seem to be concerned? I know I’ve received the odd letter of concern from constituents on the subject, but probably fewer than five in the last eight years, and none in the last year.”
You really ought to read the main editorial in today’s Sunday Telegraph which will disabuse you of your fantasy that this issue is limited to the blogosphere (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/4886121/Our-liberties-are-at-stake-in-this-crisis-of-confidence.html):
“The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA), designed to combat terrorism, is being exploited to legalise undercover surveillance by such diverse agencies as Defra, the Charity Commission and even the BBC. Information acquired by the Government may also be shared with private organisations. Add to this Orwellian nexus of surveillance the four million CCTV cameras that make Britain the most covertly observed society in Europe, and we must feel serious concern for our hard-won civil liberties.”
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 12:34 pm
john
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:02 am
You can find the Pullman piece on my blog too.
Jay
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:30 am
What few people have mentioned, apart from Iain Martin in the Telegraph last week, is that the 600-odd grand a year that Fred the Shred will be trousering (and on which an as yet perplexingly anonymous minister signed off) is but a drop in the ocean compared with the hundreds of billions that the banking crisis will cost us in the future.
This is classic Brown populist misdirection; find an easy target and act tough in order to deflect attention from the main issue.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 1:03 pm
I am glad to see that liberties are safe in Labour’s hands. I’m just off to the pub and light up one of roll ups at the bar. If the police or council object and I presume I can just point them to your blog.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 1:08 pm
l have been stopped and searched under S44 and missed my train through it. This stop and searching of people like me, a white male, is nothing more than to make up the numbers to show S44 is not racial.
lt is akin to a robbery being commited by blacks yet the police stop and question whites.
Oh, and for your information, l’m married to an Afro-Caribbean and our 2 children are mixed race.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 2:06 pm
They do the random stop and search at airports in the US. We’d all been stopped and searched once, at the usual x-ray machine. at Kennedy. Then, they decided to delay the plane and set up a screened off tunnel to stop and search people AGAIN. A man beside me got the full treatment, as full as you can get with you clothes on. He was European, and about sixty. They just waved me through. No search. Now, was that because I smelled heavily of alcohol, to a degree that must have surrounded me with a sizeable olfactory halo (I’m a nervous flyer), do you suppose? Wee tip for you terrorists out there, and an even bigger one for airport security. Also at airport bars there they ask everyone for ID, no matter how old you look. Then people who are 21, as they have to be in the US, but look younger have no excuse to get resentful. Doesn’t stop them. Just takes the excuse away.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 2:14 pm
@steve shepherd
My apologies, I wasn’t disgusted enough just then. What do you mean, you, a white male? What the **** do you mean by that? That only people with beards and a different colour of skin should be stopped?
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 4:09 pm
@Jim Baxter. It’s called profiling but that’s something that is not allowed as it would be perceived as rasicsm.
lt may have escaped your attention but the recent terrorist atrocities were perpetrated by Islamic Extremists … not the IRA, not a White Supremacy Group etc.This is a fact and you cannot deny that. Neither can you deny that Muslim Extremists are inherently of a different race.If you can give me a valid logical reason, other than racism, why profiling is not used l would be interested to hear it.
lt may suit your sensibilities (and the Police) for everyone to be stopped and searched but in reality it cannot be justified logically except as little more than stating ‘Look at us, we are doing something’. It matters not that it serves no other purpose than just being PR for the Government. Airport Security, like the TSA in US, also adheres to this.
All this may make you think that travelling is safer but it isn’t, regardless of all the stop and searches.
It may surprise you but l am in favour of security but real targeted security and not this stopping and searching everyone … including Muslims. lt is a farce.
Any terrorist organisation could circumvent this circus with very little effort.
Stop and search did not stop the IRA but British Intelligence did stop many ‘attacks’. They did this by infiltrating the IRA.
l could go on and detail the ridiculous confiscation of tweezers, lighters, drinks incl duty free at airports but what’s the point? Most of the public just believe what they are told and don’t question it.
Seems you are in this category too … but l certainly am not.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 4:32 pm
jessica, the mantra that you have nothing to hide means that you have nothing to fear could only have been said by someone who hasn’t given more than a millisecond of thought to the subject.
We all have something to hide, it could be our middle names, our age, our education, our passwords, our bank account numbers, our credit card numbers, not one of us is without something we want to be kept private, yet you blithely state that we should share everything with anyone. You are a fool, and in answer to Tom Harris who incidentally, is one of the few Labour politicians I have respect for,the Labour record on human rights and respect for privacy is abysmal, your record on pretty much everything is pretty crap, sorry that’s how I feel.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 7:14 pm
@steve shepherd
I quite agree that any terrorist organisation could circumvent it, and will do so. And I agree that intelligence, infiltration, abd bribery are the stronger measures by far. The Iraq war was not necessary if it was only about removing Saddam, which it wasn’t. Saddam could have been removed just by quietly putting a large price on his head, which is how his sons were nailed.
Supposing there were no stop and search. That would make things a lot easier wouldn’t it? Bear with me – reduce it to the absurd – do away with searches at airports. Well, you could just walk on board with a gun couldn’t you? It used to happen all the time. I don’t expect you are advocating that. So, the stop and search forces them to find other means. But imagine the outrage if there were no such measures and an act of terrorism were perpetrated which they might easily have prevented.
Since we’re stuck with them, it seems, searching must not be seen to target any particular group. That would be, what’s the phrase, a ‘recruiting sergeant’ for resentment among the groups targeted.
Can we agree on that?
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 7:59 pm
Jessica @ 4:47pm
“It’s been said before but it’s worth repeating: if you’ve nothing to hide, then you’ve nothing to fear.”
Yeah right. Unless you happen to be a electrician with a swarthy complexion. Don’t forget, not only was he killed for having nothing to hide, but in the immediate aftermath, the state did everything in its power to smear and blacken his name. Just about the only thing they didn’t do was send his mum the bill for the bullets. Are you for real Jessica?
Tom @ 5:05pm
“The IRA terrorists’ aims were entirely political. It was possible to negotiate with them because their aims were negotiable. ”
You’re right on that one Tom. They wanted what all good old fashioned marxists want – money, assorted baubles and the ability to tell people what to do. We gave them all three. In return, they gave us the concession of not continuing their gangster activities on the UK mainland. It also helped that we’d beaten them militarily.
Jim Baxter@@@
I’m not sure what to write here. I suggest this link. Maybe you’ll get the help you need there…
http://www.derekdraper.net
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 8:48 pm
@ Colin Mcquade
Cheers mate. One good turn deserves another.
You should try here:
http://www.nottinghamshirehealthcare.nhs.uk/our-services/forensic-services/rampton-hospital/
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 9:02 pm
@Colin
I didn’t notice Jessica’s comment initially, so thanks for pointing it out!
In response to her, all I can say is that these days everyone should fear having to prove they have nothing to hide.
It’s more worrying when you realise that not only is that valid, it’s also a logical fallacy. You can’t prove a negative after all, only a positive, which should be up to the police.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 9:06 pm
Jim Baxter @ 8:48pm
Jim, do you work for the Home Office, or should that be the Ministry Of The Interior, by any chance?
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 9:49 pm
@Colin Mcquade
Colin, we call it The People’s Commissariat for Internal Affairs. NKVD for short. Care to visit our NKVD clinic?
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:20 pm
“But why is it that this subject ignites the blogscape while in the non-virtual world so few people seem to be concerned?”
Who is it, do you think, that writes all these concerned blog posts? We are real people who live in the non-virtual world and we would like our points of view to be taken seriously.
The web has democratised communication but your post and subsequent comments give me the impression you wish the narrative (the dictation?) was one-way: from the Government to the people.
Can you at least acknowledge that the 50+ comments here represent a genuine concern in sections of the population? That we, the “ignited” inhabitants of the “blogscape”, think this Government’s legislative programme is (and has been) too authoritarian and a change in approach is required?
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:27 pm
“…these days everyone should fear having to prove they have nothing to hide.”
–John (@2009-03-01-21:02)
What a fantastic quote – thank you!
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:31 pm
“If you can give me a valid logical reason, other than racism, why profiling is not used I would be interested to hear it.” –Steve Shepherd
Here’s one: it doesn’t work.
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/07/profiling.html
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 10:59 pm
“Can you at least acknowledge that the 50+ comments here represent a genuine concern in sections of the population? That we, the “ignited” inhabitants of the “blogscape”, think this Government’s legislative programme is (and has been) too authoritarian and a change in approach is required?”
I certainly will acknowledge that, Richard, and if nothing else, running this blog and reading the comments posted here and in other threads has made me far more aware of this issue. It’s one I’m now taking a keener interest in.
But I hope you will acknowledge that I’m sincere in my view that fears of a major reduction in our liberty are over-stated.
Sunday 1 March 2009 at 11:40 pm
“…running this blog and reading the comments posted here and in other threads has made me far more aware of this issue. It’s one I’m now taking a keener interest in.”
Bravo
)
Ladies and Gentlemen of the blogscape: this is why writing to your elected politician is important. (Politicians: this is why you should all have blogs!)
“But I hope you will acknowledge that I’m sincere in my view that fears of a major reduction in our liberty are over-stated.”
I do and I’m sure you are. However I participated in the Convention on Modern Liberty yesterday (via the Internet) where thousands of people begged to differ with that view.
Even if the scale of the reduction in our liberty has been exaggerated, I believe that there *has been* such a reduction (vis: the examples given by others in this thread); that the trend is continuing, and my perception is that the pace is accelerating.
Monday 2 March 2009 at 12:43 pm
Apologies. I meant to add this, for the benefit of readers who have been ‘busy learning other things’ (I hate PC but the brigade might want to adopt that one as a substitute for ‘pig-ignorant’).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD
And before you say anything, I agree that we have to watch out.
Monday 2 March 2009 at 3:35 pm
NKVD? … l have blood relations in Bulgaria (married BG citizen). They lived in UK for a while but returned to BG as my in-law could not settle. Interestingly, my BG in-law was under Communism till 1989 and she thinks that UK has less rights than she did then.
l don’t agree with her but it does make one think.
Monday 2 March 2009 at 4:14 pm
“Our Liberties Are Safe With Labour”
The above is so obviously untrue that I find it hard to believe that you honestly hold this opinion.
You claim that Libertarians who object so vociferously to the arrival of a police state have experienced no “perceptible diminution in their own personal freedoms”. Do you have any understanding of the nature of freedom? Taking a freedom from one citizen, takes it from everyone. A person may not need to exercise that freedom currently or may have escaped notice when they did so but the freedom that they rely on has gone.
As for your assertion that those who wish to protect our civil liberties: “almost never voice a word of criticism of those who planned and supported the 7/7 attacks”, dear God. Any moreunpleasant, bald faced lies you wish to slander us with?
Your writing is usually entertaining and informing but your post here would be unworthy of the most gutter bound press.
Monday 2 March 2009 at 5:18 pm
Seems our liberties are oh so free, the goverment is still considering if should/will comply with the ECHR ruling on DNA databases.
For those who think that it isn’t a problem:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So if you have a sample of 9 million DNA samples what would you do with it.
Sell it to:
Life Assurance companies – They could use it to track your family potential for catching cancer,
Car Insurance Companies – Assess your sons potential to be killed drink driving
Health Assurance Company – Assess you potential of becoming an alcoholic.
Use it for Criminal profiling
Is it nature/Nurture are you born a criminal or made into one.
Job Agencies: If you get this job will you take excessive sickness/steal from the company.
Was your father a rapist? Should you be watched incase you go the same way
Eugenics
You cannot have children because there is a one in 100 chance that your children may have a faulty gene.
You cannot have children because there is a five in 100 chance that your children may turn into Criminal.
You cannot have children because there is a 50 in 100 chance that your children may be ginger!
Do anybody think that these things will not happen. Think again! Especially as the goverment is proposing to share our data with anyone it likes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You get in a cab – you are dropped off at the place that you have asked to be taken to and pay for the fare. Later that day, a squad of C19 burst through your door and point firearms at your head, before whisking you off to Paddington Green secure unit for nasty people where you wait for 6 weeks whilst they investigate.
What has happened is that later in the morning, someone has telephoned in a bomb threat. They happen to see a cab outside of the place concerned, with somone leaving a shopping bag in a bin. So they run a test in a cab (not necessarily the right one), find your DNA (along with several others) and Robert is your father’s brother.
They then tell the press that they have foiled a terror threat (they can’t give details as that would not be in the country’s best interests) – you were innocent, but they “had to be sure”. The authorities trumpet that they have foiled a “major terror plot”.
One weasily worded apology later and you can go back to your normal life. True, you no longer have a job, a bank account or any credit rating, so you don’t really have a life any more, but it was “all in the best interests of the nation” – so that’s good. Also, your passport is taken away, so you can’t leave the country.
They also forget to update the records, so your DNA sample is now in the CRB database – as a criminal. You are not allowed to get it updated, as they insist that they never make mistakes. You are then on various watch lists, and occasionally find your actions being monitored.
Couldn’t happen in this country?
Monday 2 March 2009 at 6:45 pm
A CHALLENGE TO TOM
WOW! Tom! I’m a fan!
I thought I was when I realised before that you are by instinct a Blairite. I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong – it was some time ago when I was last here, and I’m not a party member. Not a member of any party.)
But I’m thinking of starting one, since the Great One your party gave the world seems to be lost to the idiotic British forever. More on that later.
Your thoughts hit me. Mainly because most politicians of ALL colours are afraid to voice them, even though many must know the truth in them:
“Islamists (as opposed to Muslims) are driven by a political and religious belief that non-Muslims, simply by virtue of being non-Muslim, are worthy of death. They believe in the re-establishment of the Caliphate – the worldwide Muslim theocratic government – and believe violence is a justified means to that end.”
You mean Blair didn’t cause it all by his own fair hand? It didn’t START in 2003? It’s been going and building for decades at least? NAH!! Even before Blair was born? Come on!
Great start Tom. It’s known as THE TRUTH. Tell your fellow MPs how much better you feel for having told it. The idiotic Vaz for a start.
BROWN AND HIS LIES OVER CREEPING ISLAMISATION
The next step is for you or someone else with the necessaries to actually admit that the government has lied to us over the creeping Islamisation of our country.
How many here know that ours is the ONLY EU country out of 27 with Sharia courts? When were we told, in which manifesto, that Sharia Courts were coming to Britain?
They’re trying to set up a few in The Philippines, but can’t find enough clerical/legal types. It’ll take FIVE YEARS to train them, I am told.
My Go – Allah! They could have Anjem Choudary at the drop of a Ranting Speech to the Gullible! I’d even pay for his one-way fare. It took Mullah Brown TWO MONTHS after Blair departed to set up FIVE of the blasted unnecessaries. THIS is NOT Pakistan. We managed without medieval courts which act against female interests for years – we can do so for a touch longer. FOREVER, if I get my way!
LOSING THE STINKING PLOT … OH, & FREE SPEECH
The Left – liberal left or whatever they like to call themselves – have lost the plot. And the Right don’t want to find it cos the Left will then tell everybody that they threw it away on purpose cos it was a dirty, smelly plot, and wasn’t meant to be found again by all “right”-minded people. (Sorry if the left doesn’t seem to know what the right is doing and vice-versa, but that’s today’s politics for you.)
The truth is we have thrown away ONLY ONE real freedom in this country and that was the FREEDOM OF SPEECH last month. We stopped a perfectly law-abiding, legally-entitled visiting EU Netherlands MP (a “LIBERAL” one – NOT a “far right-winger” as we are constantly told) from entering Britain to tell us of his fears for the survival of his country, western values, culture and civilisation itself. He was gagged and thrown out of our land in the manner I’d like to use on Choudary. Yes, and Brown. Never mind that Geert Wilders was here in December. By FEBRUARY he was persona non grata. What had happened in the intervening TWO months? You might well ask.
But NO-ONE really noticed his illegal ejection. No political party except the racist BNP complained! UNBELIEVABLE.
Wilders was NOT asking that anyone should be killed or that the flag of Holland should fly in Iran. He was saying that he thinks the koran and Islam are not Good. He might be right, he might be wrong. THAT is not the point.
I tell you and your readers this, Tom. It was a mistake of inestimable proportions to ban Geert Wilders and his freedom of speech.
Tom, you also said:
“So, yes, threat from islamism is of an entirely different order from that posed by Irish republicanism. But an even greater threat is a stubborn refusal to accept this fact.”
WHY are you still with the Blairless, leaderless Labour party, Tom?
Come and join me. I have a great idea for a party. Reading the junk written here by the little civil/human righters and the Shame of Chakrabartis of this world, they don’t know FREEDOM when it’s theirs all the time, in their hands. Same goes for their recognition of real leadership.
So I have decided it’s time to start a new party in Britain.
The Freedom Party.
And it needs leadership.
Any takers?
http://keeptonyblairforpm.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/newsflash-wilders-expected-to-be-in-number-10-by-next-year/
The guy I have suggested would NOT by any stretch of the imagination be permitted to become a British citizen, so he’s out. Not radical enough, not Islamist enough, not fundamentally bigoted enough to even get past an assylum … I mean asylum board.
But this kind of party could wipe the floor with the present lot, and that, THAT is what scares Gordon Brown.
Monday 2 March 2009 at 9:11 pm
BlairSupporter @6:45 pm
See previous advice given to Jim Baxter in my post @ 7:59pm 1st march…
Monday 2 March 2009 at 9:31 pm
Colin @9:11pm
Kind of you, Colin. I’m sure.
Personal recommendations from satisfied patients are always best, don’t you think?
Monday 2 March 2009 at 9:48 pm
What makes you think I’m satisfied?
Tuesday 3 March 2009 at 12:44 pm
“But why is it that this subject ignites the blogscape while in the non-virtual world so few people seem to be concerned?”
Because there are few outlets in which people CAN voice their concerns.
I intended to write to my MP about this very issue, however, I don’t want my name to be on a ‘black-bag’ list for use in the future as a ‘prospective political activist’ or some other such nonsense that will no doubt be dreamed up.
The reasons that so many people are frightened by this legislation is, frankly, obvious, and if you don’t realise that, then you clearly should not hold office.
The question really is, why would a government want to introduce such a law?
Answer: To hinder the reporting of abuses of the police, especially since (reportedly) 10k officers have been issued with Tazers recently. There can be no other rational answer.
Is it for security?
No. If a ‘terrorist’ or similar wanted to ‘take out’ a police office, I’m sure they will be able to identify that officer, and/or take pictures from afar without their knowledge.
Is it for OUR safety?
No.
There’s no justification for such a law, other than to hide and protect our pitiful police force if and when people start to take to the streets.
THAT is why people don’t like that particular nasty piece of legislation.
Tuesday 3 March 2009 at 1:23 pm
To Eric Arthur Blair -
Sorry, ‘writing to your MP about WHAT piece of legislation’?
We have had so many laws brought in in recent years, yes perhaps more than we needed, but they have seldom if ever been used AGAINST the average law-abiding citizen. They have been used by would-be, might-be, who-knows radicalists of course with the help of Shame of Chakrabarti and the so-called Liberty outfit.
A year ago a London barrister urged Al Qaeda to kill Tony Blair. As I saw it he was guilty of breaking recent laws of incitement to cause terrorism. After all it may not only have been Blair who could have been history if they were able to do this, but the good ol’ libertarians with their placards aloft denouncing him.
http://keeptonyblairforpm.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/uk-barrister-urges-al-qaeda-to-kill-tony-blair/
What happened? Was he arrested, spoken to, hauled in front of the Bar Council? After all he had already said on his site that he would not assist in murder “except the murder of Tony Blair”. A harmless rant? Maybe and he was asked to admit it was a rant. He would not. He said he stood by it.
So nothing happened to this individual as far as I know through our legal system. NOTHING. We do not use our laws in ANY way as we should, for fear of the civil righters and their mates in the mainstream press. Not to mention the HR Act, which is often used against us.
I’m with Tom on this: (I think he means “descent”, btw. Sorry Tom, I’m a bit of a stickler for accuracy, thus the blog.)
“But surely the fundamental point to make is that virtually none of those who blog about our alleged decent into a police state has experienced any perceptible diminution in their own personal freedoms. Libertarians screech hysterically across the blogscape about it with all the relevance of those blokes who wear those “The end is nigh” sandwich boards.”
Thursday 5 March 2009 at 3:52 pm
I keep hearing the same thing “if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing fear” or “if you don’t want to be caught don’t break the law”.
Read the story at http://ministryofparanoia.com/2008/my-arrest-story/ and tell me what he did wrong!
There are many people who are suffering injustice due to the laws brought in by this labour government, we have already become a police state where I dare not take a photo of my wife as she boards a train lest I get arrested, so don’t try kidding me.
Monday 9 March 2009 at 3:02 pm
I would be grossly hypocritical if Dr Moussawi, (a spokesman for the Lebanese-based militant group Hizbollah, the military arm of which is banned in Britain as a terrorist organisation) were now allowed into the UK as planned.
He has allegedly called Jews “a lesion on the forehead of history” and said of Israel: “Pain is the only language that the enemy understands.”
I have written three blog posts about the Geert Wilders incident, and have just received 3 replies from MPs and Euro MPs forwarded to me from other bloggers. If anyone else has a reply from their MP yet, please also forward to me. I will update the page as more information comes in. It also has links to other blogs and youtube videos of MPs defending and supporting the decision.
Tuesday 10 March 2009 at 11:34 am
Tom, people tend to shout when they’re a bit miffed.
At least we got your attention.
But instead of whining about our internet etiquette, or lack thereof, how about telling us where we’re wrong?
Thursday 19 March 2009 at 12:43 pm
“But surely the fundamental point to make is that virtually none of those who blog about our alleged decent into a police state has experienced any perceptible diminution in their own personal freedoms.”
Ok Mr Harris, what would you call being stopped and searched without any reasonable suspicion under ‘anti-terror’ law? How about being harassed by PCSOs wanting to know ‘why you are taking photos in a public place’? How about being told by a police man that you ‘can’t protest here until you have filled out a form’? All well and good in nu-Labour’s vision?
“Labour’s record on civil liberties is a good one.”
Labour’s record is outstandingly bad. So the best you can come up with is the HRA and FOI? The first is a subversion to the European idea of ‘rights’ over ‘liberty’ and the later can be wriggled out of.
The truth is that Labour has partaken in an sustained assault on the liberty to which we’ve grown accustomed. You say that people are not affected by council snooping, but fail to address the point that it shouldn’t be going on in the first place. A lot of the things Labour have designated as crimes should not be crimes (such as protesting without permission) You also fail to address the point that without the Labour party taking part in the unjust invasion on Iraq the threat of terrorism would be substantially reduced.
It is typical New Labour thinking. Policy by false ideology:
- ‘Having nothing to hide and therefore nothing to fear’ being used to justify intrusive policies.
- Giving up privacy to ‘make us safer’ seen in proliferation of CCTV despite no evidence being provided that it reduces crime.