And another thing…

Oh right. Don’t criticise Gordon because he’s our *leader*. Otherwise you’re unpatriotic.

Wow.

What election did El Gordo win to get such an honour? It wasn’t a general election. It wasn’t a leadership election. Oh yeah, there wasn’t one. Yield unto our unelected overlord loyalty or be a traitor to the State.

Nice.

Don’t be thick, Shaun. Criticising your country’s leader in a foreign country has been frowned upon for years. It would be no more acceptable to criticise a Tory prime minister than a Labour one in those circumstances.

I can think of nothing more likely to turn moderate voters off than his strident, smug, arrogant neo-marxist nonsense. That sums up Gordon Brown

ps im ashamed that Gordon Brown is our PM, as he is the worst ever. Here is a small list of this vile governments failings:
- Illegal Iraq war
- Afghanistan ‘peacekeeping’
- Sexed-up dossier and fixing WMDs
- Dr Kelly’s’suicide’
- Blair’s taste for war
- Replacing Trident
- Bush and Obama’s poodle
- Blocking EU treaty referendum
- Arms sales to Saudi terrorists
- Pandering to the Saudis
- BAE inquiry blocked by cronies
- Allowing Murdoch to influence policy
- Decimating UK manufacturing
- Borrowing Brown’s boom & bust
- Brown’s smoke & mirrors accounting
- Selling off gold reserves
- Creating debt culture
- Raids on pension funds
- PFI and PPI taxpayer rip off
- New Deal jobs sham
- Increasing gap between rich & poor
- Toadying to vested corporate greed
- A home office ‘not fit for purpose’
- A tick-box PC culture
- Binge drinking, licensing laws
- ‘Respect’ agenda, knives and gangs
- Big Brother surveillance
- ID cards & attacks on civil liberties
- Fiddling crime stats
- Unchecked immigration
- Blunkett’s fall from grace
- Stuffing quangos with lackeys
- Rise of consultants and wonks
- Mandelson’s rise & fall & rise
- Campbell & the spin doctors
- Erminegate Sleaze
- New Labour croneyism
- Ex-ministers pimping for lobby firms
- Levy pimping peerages to slushfund
- Eco-town con
- Ripping-off the public to pay for Olympics
- £12.7bn NHS computer waste
- Privatisation and NHS cuts
- Squandering taxpayer’s billions
- Academies & dumbed down exams
- Scrapping trade union’s Clause 4
- Greengate scandal
- Bernie Ecclestone scandal
- Encouraging gullible to gamble
- Prescott and the super casino
- Dome fiasco
- False ‘Britishness’
- Killing off pubs and Post Offices

Lots of time on your hands, I assume, Chris?

I understand your points, but I disagree.

First of all, I don’t see why people are complaining that the media aren’t carrying this speech. I understand why that is. Second of all, I don’t really think Hannan would make a very good Tory leader or Prime Minister.

However, I think Hannan was in a unique position, as an independent MEP, to say things which he (and evidently many of his constituents) felt needed to be said. The fact that it would be impossible to make a speech such as his within Westminster without being shouted over and constantly interrupted is a cause for Westminster to be ashamed. Just because Gordon Brown is Britain’s Prime Minister doesn’t make him immune from criticism. There was also no party politics in the speech – he didn’t mention Labour or the Conservative Party once.

Whether or not you agree with him, he’s not wrong to make a speech and an argument in the EU Parliament. Your post is simply attacking the messenger rather than responding to the message.

I thought it was the general idea that Europe was our future and our new home, surely we can openly discuss our politics at home.

You’re really scraping the barrel here Tom. If only our Westminster MPs could be allowed to speak in this way, uninterrupted by backbench halfwits or indeed the commons speaker, maybe we’d be in much better shape as a nation.

All Hannan did was say what many, many people are thinking.

I’ve not heard of Daniel Hannan before, but I thought he conveyed very well in his three and a half minutes what a lot of people are thinking.

It may be painful for any member of this Government or even Labour Party to listen to, but he spoke a lot of truths. You cannot deny the facts even if you don’t agree with his personal comments on Gordon’s oratory manner.

As for being unpatriotic, how patriotic is it to leave taxpayers with a trillion pounds worth of debt while you walk into the sunset with a gold plated pension ?

And Another Thing*…

Your ‘in a foreign country’ thing doesn’t really hold water. Hannan could have made this speech to Gordon Brown in a town hall in Berkshire – as long as it went on YouTube and got noticed, the location of the recording is absolutely unimportant. What’s piquing people’s interest is not that he was in the EU parliament when he said this, but that he was talking to Gordon Brown when he said it.

* hope you see what I did there…

Is that a blanket thing for you Tom? What about Chinese or Soviet-era dissidents criticising their homelands’ leaders? Was that a wrong one too? Or Germans fleeing their elected Nazi government in the 30s?

I know that you will say that those are absurdly extreme examples but, and I don’t know if this has penetrated your Westminster bubble yet, there is a visceral loathing of Brown at large in the country, coupled with a (justifiable) fear of the Authoritarian State apparatus NuLab has assembled while muttering the mantra of the oppressor ‘nothing to hide, nothing to fear’.

Under those circumstances, I’d argue that in many ways it is *more* patriotic, more authentically British, to criticise such an unelected leader than to meekly keep quiet and let him Mugabe* about the world-stage.

*Mugabe ought to be a verb meaning to knock about with international leaders, laying claim to a heroic mantle while your homeland is in a shambles

Should Brown not be subject to what one of his ministers described as “the court of public opinion?”

“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.”

-Edward R Murrow

Yes Tom I have a lot of time as im unemployed, thankyou labour

Tom, two thoughts.

The first is that if you think not regarding “the head of government to be the nation’s leader unless he or she is also a member of their little party” is restricted to the Republicans in the US you’ve clearly not been paying attention for the last eight years.

The second is to query whether you are demanding that British MEPs, from whichever party, must have no attitude towards the British Prime Minister than slavish devotion? It seems a very odd attitude to take. Hannan is a politician, making a political speech in the parliament to which he has been elected. It would be more disgraceful to suggest that he has no right to criticise the British Prime Minister – or, worse, that to do so is unpatriotic.

The British Prime Minister is not head of state, he has no apolitical ‘father of his country’ role that the US President does. Criticism of him is perfectly legitimate.

point 1)you shouldnt bitch about the PM in a foreign country

point 2)i cant stand the great broon, but still hold to point 1.

Point 3) this was in the european parliament…Hannan was elected. by brits. so what was wrong with what he did?

I must admit I am rather amused by the illusion that Brown, when speaking in the EU Parliament, is in a foreign country. It all sounds rather xenophobic to me?

Are we not members of the EU? Is he not a member of the EU Council? Was his speech not given in the EU Parliament and was not Hannan an elected member of the EU Parliament?

Seems to me that to suggest it is foreign in any sense other than that it exists in what once was a seperate Sovereign nation is absurd.

I could understand if it was a sovereign nation but the EU is not. Now I will happily accept a situation where we make the EU a foreign country but of course Labour will not let us have a referendum on that. They can’t have it both ways. Either we’re in and it’s not ‘foreign’ or we’re out and it is. Needless to say the latter is by far the better idea.

All in all, it seems like all the other bad news combined with this has got Labour and our Tom here rattled . Now what was it Mervyn King said and who was it he met afterwards?

I wonder if Gulag Gordon has been summoned to the Palace on his return from his globe-trotting to explain his disasterous economic policy and how he is making this country a laughing stock across the globe?

Tom Harris: “Criticising your country’s leader in a foreign country has been frowned upon for years. It would be no more acceptable to criticise a Tory prime minister than a Labour one in those circumstances.”

Two points:

• Er no. This is an American convention; it has never been a British one.

• Your concept of a “foreign country” is even more strange since we are talking about an MEP in our European Parliament (where MEPs should be able to speak about anything without fear nor favour anyway). And the PM was speaking to the European Parliament inter alia about European matters and any MEP is therefore entitled to respond.

You haven’t quite got to grips with being European and part of the EU yet.

(And O/T it always irritates when Brits keep referring to “Europe” when they mean “continental Europe” as if the British Isles weren’t part of Europe.)

Since when did the Prime Minister become “leader of the nation”? Last I checked he was merely Her Britannic Majesty’s head of the civil service, first lord of the treasury, and so on and so forth.

One of the virtues of having a monarchy is that neither Brown, nor Cameron, nor even Clegg will ever be supreme leader of the nation, and we will never be obligated to hold them in any affection or to be loyal to them. We have a queen for that.

I really don’t believe that Labour MPs carefully refrained from criticising Conservative “leaders of the nation” in the past – even when in foreign parts.

But he was in our country, he was in the heart of the Government that rules us – he was in the EU!

Why should Brown be free from criticism there? Do the Euro MEPs not have the right to know about the man who has bankrupt the nation? If we don’t tell him, they might follow Brown off a cliff.

@ IRJMilne: “I really don’t believe that Labour MPs carefully refrained from criticising Conservative “leaders of the nation” in the past – even when in foreign parts.”

If that’s the case, then they were wrong.

Tom,

This “unknown MEP” is gaining praise and press because he has said what we have wanted Gordon to hear from our “known” MPs for months.

I think your reaction to 3 minutes of criticism highlights just how hard this is hitting home for Labour and for our Prime Minister abroad. I am a non-aligned blogger, so can’t be laden with the Tory hack or jealous opposition tags. This is what swathes of the nation feels and just because Hannan gets it and Labour doesn’t, makes your post sound like a soor plume.

Take the hit, listen to what is said and think of why it’s getting such praise, cos there’s substance behind the hype.

I usually vote SNP, but I would vote Tory if Dan Hannan was their leader.

Everything he said was on the button. Bravo!

I’m curious Tom.

Does the fact that 100% of the responses to your article disagree with you make you pause and re-evaluate what you have said?

And if not, I would be interested in your response to the points made about the EU Parliament NOT being a foreign country. This was an EU leader addressing the EU Parliament and being responded to by an elected MEP.

Do you really think that under those circumstances he was not entitled to speak up for his voters?

I find it staggering that the BBC found time to run a five minute news piece (and an online article) about a Conservative councillor who’s defected to Labour and yet there’s no mention of Hannan on any of their pages.

Why just could you are abroad should you show any more respect to an unelected Prime Minister who has ruined the country through his time as Chancellor and Prime Minister ?? I don’t remember the Kinnocks holding back on their critisisim when they were both in Brussels taking in half a million each year between them.

Gordon Brown seems happy to address the world but won’t put himself up for scrutiny in this country so what options do people have? Why don’t you invite him to Glasgow South and we can tell him what we think of him face to face here !!!

With reference to your update, I think it might be more accurate to say the consensus seems to be it’s ok to citicise the PM if

a) you’re saying as an elected official in an elected chamber, representing the views of your constituents and

b) he deserves it,

both of which are true in this case.

“Criticising your country’s leader in a foreign country has been frowned upon for years.”

He’s not my leader.
If he wants to lay claim to that title let him put himself up for election.

Maybe we’re all delighted with Daniel Hannan’s monstering of Brown because everything in the Westminster Village is so stage-managed that people can’t get anywhere near letting Brown know how much he is despised.
If you’ve got his ear Tom, pass it on.
We loathe him.

Tom,

Reading your article and subsequent comments it is clear that you seem to conflate Government Leader with Head of State. Do not worry you are in good company, I seem to remember the last PM did too and this one upset the protocol chiefs with his references to ‘Barack’ instead of Mr President at the White House last week. I also happen to think that the EU Parliament should not be regarded as ‘foreign’. Election anyone?

Tom, having read your update, you’ve got to be joking. I think the concensus is, if the PM is doing a sh*t job, we don’t care which country he runs off to, we still want him to be hammered for it. Right now, we only have one PM, and yes, he’s Labour, so we are attacking a Labour PM. But from the previous 20+ posts, I don’t think many would be against attacking any party’s PM if they were in the current situation. It’s the financial mess that is causing the anger, not party politics.

Dear Tom,

I think you must realise that an awful lot of patriotic Brits hugely enjoyed Dan Hannan’s speech. Brown’s ongoing destruction of the economy for party political ends suggests a lack of patriotism to me. I know that you’re a Scottish labour MP, but that shouldn’t mean you can’t spot a dud PM when you see one. And surely you’re a tad embarassed at how Brown got to be PM?

Hannan just told the truth, very eloquently. In this case, the truth does hurt.

Ben

OK, first a couple of queries.

1) Disastrous is the word for Gordon Brown, not disasterous. If anyone calls him disasterous again they will have to answer to me. Normally, given the frequently disastrous results of my own attempts to type I wouldn’t raise such a trivial concern but there’s been far too much disasterousness recently.

I think the Cabinet Secretary is Head of the Civil Service, not the PM.

Now, Tom, this:

@ IRJMilne: “I really don’t believe that Labour MPs carefully refrained from criticising Conservative “leaders of the nation” in the past – even when in foreign parts.”

If that’s the case, then they were wrong.

But earlier this?

Criticising your country’s leader in a foreign country has been frowned upon for years. It would be no more acceptable to criticise a Tory prime minister than a Labour one in those circumstances.

He has no right to call himself our leader until her presents himself to the public and gives us a chance to give him a mandate.

Mr Harris, are you saying that Dan Hannan should only be allowed to speak if he praises the Prime Minister? Does free speech only matter to you if they agree with your doctrine?

Disaster!

My mistake Tom. Profound arporligies. As you were. Read what you said backwards.

Patriotism? We’re English, not Scottish.

Oh and as an aside your “unknown MEP” jibe:

MEPs are unknown in the UK because the European Parliament is almost never reported. This is odder still since MEPs have arguable more power than Westminster backbenchers – no names no pack drill.

The same is not true in the French or German media for instance.

I see Green party leader and former revolutionary Danny Cohn-Bendit frequently reported and quoted in French and German media. Le Pen is hardly ignored in France. Other more mainstream MEPs are reported on – as is the European Parliament generally.

OK this ’tube seems to have become some sort of a viral hit (I haven’t seen it and am not a fan of political speeches anyway).

Tory conspiracists complain loudly that it wasn’t covered by an allegedly biased British media.

In reality all MEPs and what goes on in the parliament are ignored by the British media. Ignoring it was just continuation of the usual service.

Mr Hannan has said what most people beleive, Its called the truth, you know the thing that Labour knows nothing about.

Its a pity every generation has to learn about Labour the hard way.

Brown is not the head of state, good thing too as the way he sat there self consiously laughing during both Hannan’s and Farage’s speeches was cringe making in the extreme, not at all statesmanlike. You wouldn’t see the Queen behaving like that no matter how embarrasing the situation. Pathetic display from Brown but top notch stuff from Farage and Hannan. Shame we haven’t got any politicians of similar calibre at Westminster.

Chris Burley
Thursday 26 March 2009 at 11:40 am
- Mandelson’s rise & fall & rise
—————————————

Hey, Chris, get with it, you’re a fall and rise behind the times. And you’re not going to be far out if you stick in another fall, just for good measure.

Anyway, back to topic.

Tom Harris v Commentators

0-37 to the away team I’m afraid.

Dan Hannan has had more effect with that one speech, because he is articulating what we all feel.

He is an elected MEP for the South East of England, he has a somewhat larger mandate than Gordon Brown, who has absolutely no mandate to run this country other than a shady deal that may or may not have happened in the Granita.

Brown when to the European Parliament to Grandstand, despite the fairly obvious censorship by the compliant media in this country- the message is out.

Brown should go before he does one more day’s damage, and I think Cameron will be worried as well.

Calling people ‘thick’ for daring to suggest gordy isn’t above criticism?

Shows the contempt your party has for public opinion.

Enjoy the rest of your political career in the opposition party Mr Harris. As of June 2010 that is.

Hmm. Well I veer away from all this “Gordon is unelected” business.

I violently disagree with the constitution and particularly violently disagree with our bent and thoroughly undemocratic electoral system. It stinks. No way does it express the wishes of the British people. It is designed not to.

BUT. Within the constitution, Gordon Brown has a perfect right to be where he is. It’s how the (bent) system works and it’s how it is supposed to work. The party leader who can command a majority in our FPTP Parliament gets to be PM. Ordinary voters don’t get to choose who is party leader.

No ordinary voters are ever asked who they want to have as PM except possibly the electorate of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

It’s how it works and I have never heard a Tory complain about the way it works.

Sure, Gordon Brown was ill-advised not to have a General Election soon after he took over (as I am sure even Gordon Brown now realises), but he certainly wasn’t required to.

I look forward to all the whining Tories signing up to Make Votes Count. And pigs will fly.

My God, have you read this mans responses? proof positive, were it needed, that Labours minions are vastly under equipped for the task at hand. I look forward to this dreadful Partys demise at the next election

Put me down as a seditionary Tom.

I’ll expect the 3am knock at the door.

(PS Pravda have agreed to give the Hannan video a little airtime at last. At 5pm on RADIO 4. You couldn’t make it up. East Germany was better than this)

1. Hannan said what everybody in this country wants to say to Brown.
2. The MSM didn’t touch it, but a lot of people wanted to see it.
3. Nobody asked Gordon Brown to be the Prime Minister. At least Hannan was elected.
4.Most of you should be hung for treason or imprisoned for fraud.
5. This is the face of democracy – it shows that politicians can no longer depend on the press barons and the BBC to do their bidding and I am highly surprised you are dissing it.

“Which is why he’s so popular in David Cameron’s Conservative Party, I suppose.”

No,Tom … he’s popular with the ‘public’ because he’s saying what many of us think.

Oh … and Brown isn’t MY Leader

Tom, ignoring all of this stuff can you just answer two questions for me?

Do you believe that our level of debt and public sector spending can be justified to generations to come?

We ARE in the worst state of any major economy in the world going in this recession, do you disagree with that?

Okay three, do you agree with your current policy to try and spend our way out of this, when that is precisely the attitude that’s caused this whole mess?

By mainstream media I guess you are refering to the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Like many of their editors, I notice you are all too happy to promote patriotism when it suits you – here it is the name of Gordon – but not when it matters. There was nothing unpatriotic about what Hannan said – he was standing up for the Island that you and your idiot leader seem so keen to destroy. If you really understood and believed in patriotism, you would do something about the anti-British agenda the BBC pursues, instead of wasting your time attempting political satire on your own website…

@ G Dawson

As I’ve pointed out (repeatedly) to new visitors, Tom has one of the safest seats in Westminster and nothing short of a meteor strike is going to get him out of his seat for the next 20 years.

It’s fairly likely he’ll be in the next Labour government in 2018 or 2022.

It would appear that on today’s efforts there is more than one member of the Labour Party who could do with some lessons in engaging with the electorate.

Of the attempts at a response to Mr Hannon’s outburst yours is quite the most dismal.

My understanding is that Europe is made up of many nations and that the Parliament, by definition of our membership, is not ‘foreign’. It may be situated in a foreign country but can it really be said that a Parliament in which we are, as a nation, represented by MEPs be foreign.

I’m not sure that the argument that Brown (or indeed any other politican) should not be criticised when in a foreign country cuts much ice in these internet based days in any event.

I’be voted Labour for 28 years. it has to be said, from the perspective of at least one Labour voter (myself) that Gordon Brown is not a great leader of our people, and may well, through the perspective of history be found out as one of the least successful Chancellors and Prime Ministers.

Apart from that, though, I’m sure Gordon is a very fine person with a sense of humour, which may be best developed in a less demanding position in these dark days?

As a legal academic, lecturer and public speaker – and from that perspective, I would say that Hannan gave a very good speech. I suspect that a lot of others, of all political persuasions, agree with this given the prominence his speech has been given in the media and on the internet.

I enjoy reading your blog but it may be, on this occasion, your finger is not (as it often is) on the pulse of pour non-foreign nation!

Look on the bright side. Only the Pope is infallible and I’m sure you would not wish to be Pope?

Funny rules this government has. The opposition isn’t allowed to talk about the devaluation of the pound (they are ‘talking down the pound’ apparently). They aren’t allowed to talk about unemployment (they are ‘praying for bad news’). Now, they aren’t allowed to criticise the PM (they are ‘being unpatriotic’).

Have you heard of democracy Tom? It’s that thing that Gordon Brown bypassed so that he could be PM for 3 years. Don’t wory though, the clock is ticking. Eventually, democracy will catch up to you.

Tom,

I respect your right to hold your view but some times people need to hear it as it is.

In the last few days we have had Mervyn King puncturing the Prime Minister’s stimulus approach, the failure of the gilts sale and the coffee house blog highlighting the FT’s analysis of the frightening amount a debt any incoming governement will face

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3478716/stat-of-the-day.thtml

Some times these things need to be said wherever the PM is

Patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel.

Perhaps critcism of our Dear Leader when abroad would not be so necessary if he had the cohones to turn up at PMQs more than once in a blue moon.

Oh and Tom, Mr Hannan isn’t particularly popular in the Conservatives. That’s why he’s a Euro-sceptic stuck in Brussels.

Dearie me, I seem to have struck a nerve, don’t I?

For those who accuse me of claiming that Hannan shouldn’t have the right to criticise the PM, can I suggest they read… oh, I don’t know – how about the original post?

I criticised Hannan for making his wee speech abroad, not for making it in the first place. As an indirectly-elected politician he could easily have made the same speech somewhere in his own “constituency”.

You don’t criticse the Queen or the country when abroad.

Politicians are fair game wherever and whenever, especially ministers.

Milliband was extremely embarassing when he had the cheek to lecture the Indian goverment, I got stick over that.

Do you think I should have defended the pseudo-intellectual jackanape? What he did was absurd and ignorant and bad mannered, he desrves to be publicly mocked for it.

Brown is a joke to the rest of the world and an embarassment to Britons, arguing against a poltroon is always warranted.

The rest of the government are little better but, thankfully, not as well known.

I don’t have any problem with the PM being criticized abroad whether it’s our current saddy or the next Tory one. If they screw up the country as badly as Brown has managed then I would expect people to criticize them for it. Saying this is unpatriotic is frankly bollocks. It would be unpatriotic NOT to say something when a politician is literally selling our country down the river..

“and for any UK politician to launch such a disgraceful, personal attack on his country’s leader — in a foreign country — is nothing short of disgraceful. ”

I fear you’re building a rod for your own back (or your parties at least) here, this comment will come back to haunt you in a couple of years..

Chris’ Wills “Brown is a joke to the rest of the world…”

Oh I don’t think so. I even heard Obama name-check him (as the Americans say) less than 48 hours ago.

Now be fair to Tom everyone. His government’s (our government’s if it pleases) economic policy is going off the rails. Added to that, Hannan’s decimation of Brown has become an internet sensation and has made headlines in the US (where the economic troubles started apparently. Quite understandably Tom is in a pretty low mood at the moment and sees this as his only means of attack. It’s sad but that’s all he’s got.

Incidently, “they don’t regard the head of government to be the nation’s leader unless he or she is also a member of their little party” – er… no. Tony Blair was my Prime Minister even though I never supported Labour. He was a stateman and a political genius. Quite why Labour forced him out and replaced him with this embarrassment is beyond me.

“this comment will come back to haunt you in a couple of years..”

I fear you may well be right, Z.

“I criticised Hannan for making his wee speech abroad…”

And you were wrong on both counts. There is no such convention as you claimed and never has been and the European parliament is our Parliament in any case.

Simon: “There is no such convention as you claimed and never has been”

I assume you’re too young to remember the furore in 1987 when Neil Kinnock, during a visit to Washington, DC, criticised Mrs Thatcher. He was pilloried by the media and by the Tories for criticising his country’s PM from abroad.

@ … Richard

Brown’s meteor perhaps?

Dammit, Tom. Not two days ago I posted here that you were becoming too rational for Labour. I realise now that you just had a fever.

I was not aware that Brown had been gifted with the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility or is the Divine Right of Kings?

Since he spends far too much of his time out of this country may we then take it that he is deliberately avoiding criticism by doing the MacAvity?

“I criticised Hannan for making his wee speech abroad, not for making it in the first place. As an indirectly-elected politician he could easily have made the same speech somewhere in his own “constituency”.”

Eh? He was addressing the Prime Minister in person, in session of the European Parliament. As an elected Member of the European Parliament. Seeing how hard it is to track GB down to the House of Commons these days, it seems harsh to criticise a politician who has managed it.

And I don’t see too many commentors arguing that it’s wrong to criticise a British PM overseas at all – Labour or otherwise. And not much pro-Europeanism either. Just a consensus that the leader of a political party is not immune to criticism because the speaker isn’t in the UK

Sign you up? You should be beamed up.

Unpatriotic?
Is that the best you can do?

Not only is it a weak reposte its quite insulting and hypocritical.
GB has ruined the economy and the livlihoods of countless British citizens, and signed away our sovereignty to an undemocratic and unaccountable foreign institutions.

The nerve of you man!

Hilarious !

What’s the matter Tom?
Shoulders not so broad these days? LOL

As Corporal Jones would say –

“They don’t like it up ‘em; they DO NOT like it up ‘em”

Have you thought about running for the leadership yourself? ;o)

Of course Tom, sorry. You’re right. MEPs should come back home if they wish to criticise Brown, rather than say… in the chamber they were elected to, when the target of their criticism is sat in the front row.

In your example, Kinnock would have been pilloried because Thatcher was not there. Are you seriously suggesting that if Cameron and Brown went on a synchronised tour of the world, that Cameron wouldn’t be allowed to criticise Brown until they got back?

“Are you seriously suggesting that if Cameron and Brown went on a synchronised tour of the world, that Cameron wouldn’t be allowed to criticise Brown until they got back?”

I’m not suggesting that anyone should “not be allowed” to do anything, and I’m not suggesting Hannan should not have been “allowed” to make his speech. All I’m saying is that in exercising his judgment, in choosing to make this speech in the way he did and in this location, he chose self-publicity over any sense of loyalty to his country.

And no, of course Cameron wouldn’t be gagged in those circumstances (did you even read my post? I thought I was a competent enough writer to get my point across clearly. Obviously not), but my view is that if it were Cameron who was abroad, he should choose to desist from attacks on GB while he was there. And you know something? I bet he would. Desist, I mean.

“I assume you’re too young to remember the furore in 1987 when Neil Kinnock, during a visit to Washington, DC, criticised Mrs Thatcher. He was pilloried by the media and by the Tories for criticising his country’s PM from abroad.”

Alas not too young by any means. I recall Alec Douglas-Home as if it were yesterday. I have far-too intimate memories of Harold Wilson and Ted Heath.

And no I certainly don’t recall it and the Tories would, wouldn’t they? And the point about it being our Parliament?

“And the point about it being our Parliament?”

Whether in the European parliament or in the UN, personal attacks on the British PM by other British politicians leave a bad taste in my mouth and do a disservice to our country.

Aaaargh. Tom. The European Parliament is not “abroad”. It’s OUR Parliament.

The European Parliament sits in France and in Belgium, neither of which are in the UK (last time I checked).

So British MEPs are not allowed to criticise the British Government or Prime Minister while attending the European Parliament? That’s palpably, gloriously ridiculous.

Forgive me please….

Gordon Brown decided that he was going to address the European Parliament and protocol allows MEP’s to respond. Gordon Brown must have known that there was a risk that he would be criticised, some would have said it was a racing certainty, but I shall be kind. Gordon Brown may be able to dictate and lecture his own party, but he cannot expect to get away with it elsewhere.

Perhaps he thought, that if he carried on spouting the same tired old rubbish abroad, that, by convention, he would be immune from criticsm. That would be cynical. I am glad that Hannan articulated what many people in this country feel, using his democratic right to free speech. God knows, millions of us feel that MP’s of all parties are failing to engage, listen or understand the mood of the public.

Personally I fully endorse every word Hannan said.

“For any UK politician to launch such a disgraceful, personal attack on his country’s leader — in a foreign country — is nothing short of disgraceful”

Ok, lets go from this position, and I shall try not to use language that cannot be misinterpreted (When I said “would not be allowed” before I wasn’t referring to being gagged, I meant morally he shouldn’t say anything). Oh, and buy a thesaurus. It’s disgraceful .

What you are saying is that an MP (or MEP) should not criticise his PM when he is in a foreign country. The implication in this convention is that the PM is not present when the criticism is given, and thus is unable to defend himself. However in the Hannan case, Mr Brown was in the very same room, and to say that he should not criticise a man in the same room is equivalent to saying that David Cameron should not criticise Gordon Brown on any stage throughout this hypothetical world tour even though both are stood side by side.

I agree one probably should not bad mouth the PM on a foreign trip when the PM isn’t around. I don’t agree though, that one should bite one’s tongue when in the same room as the PM on the grounds that we are in a foreign country.

What’s all this “British” nonsense about? I thought we were all Europeans now. In this incident, one European politician (DH) has criticised another (GB) within our country’s parliament. Which is in Strasbourg. Your anti-European “patriotism” is most untypical of New Labour.

Tom, you have received the absolutely deserved thrashing for your stupid comments. It is ludicrous even if Brown had been elected , as it is he is only MP for Kirkcaldy and caretaker PM as Blair stood down. He has never been and never will be elected by a vote. The fact that there are no labour MP’s with the decency to tell him that he should have gone long ago is the real scandal here. If he chooses to go and pontificate in Strasbourg then he deserves all he gets when he is told a few home truths. Afraid you cannot defend the indefensible. As you have seen not a person has agreed with you, time to eat humble pie and admit you were totally wrong and stupidly tried to defend the oaf.

“The European Parliament sits in France and in Belgium, neither of which are in the UK (last time I checked).”

You represent a Scots constituency. The UK Parliament sits in England.

We have direct elections for our European Parliament and everything. We can all vote. You have doubtless helped and taken part in them.

(I know the British media ignore it. It’s not the same elsewhere.)

It’s our parliament every bit as much as Westminster.

Dear Mr. Brown,

I am writing to inform you of my decision to dissolve Parliament and call for a new General Election to ascertain the wishes of my people in selecting a new Government to replace the failed administration that you presided over.

Having seen and heard quite enough over the past few years, I consulted with the Governor of the Bank of England on the real state of the economy and the country’s financial position, and the situation is simply so bad that it cannot be tolerated any further. Your insane borrow and spend policy is bankrupting my country and my people, and I am not prepared to allow that to happen.

I have reminded the Chief of the Defence Staff who his oath of allegiance is sworn to, and he agrees with me that constitutionally I am within my rights as Monarch to dismiss you and your appalling and inept shambles of an administration.

Please do not bother to reply, one would prefer that you went back to Kircaldy and prepared for oblivion.

Your gracious Sovereign,

Elizabeth Windsor (Queen)

@ Tom – “he chose self-publicity over any sense of loyalty to his country”.

Perhaps he, like many many others, feels that getting rid of this ridiculous disaster of a PM is the perfect way of showing loyalty to the country.

Get a grip Tom.

Your just giving us manufactured outrage because Dan scored a knock out.

By the way leaving your country in debt for the next 50 years just to hang onto a few more days in power and keep a few Labour MPs away from their richly deserved P45’s isn’t patriotic – its collusion and betrayal, ie distinctly unpatriotic. Just a shame we don’t have many patriotic Labour MPs who will put country before 2nd home allowances.

By the way the Queen is head of state not the unelected man who pushed the elected prime minister out of office in a coup.

So its never unpatriotic to criticism a prime minister – especially this one.

H.M. The Queen is my leader and always has been since she ascended the throne after her father’s death. I have never, ever considered a Prime Minister to be my leader whatever colour rosette they wore at election time. You are muddying the waters by trying to equate the post of British Prime Minister with U.S. President. Perhaps politics is not your strong point?

There is one (very) high-profile commentator who shares your view.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2009/03/triumph_or_treason.cfm

I can’t stand by and see a good guy like Tom take a kicking from absolutely everyone on this issue so in defence of Tom’s point I’d just like to say

The Queen is my leader.

Hannan is there to represent his constituents as best he can in that House. Deference to Brown is not called for and respect is something that must be earned.

The setup of that House allows criticism to be levelled at visiting speakers.(As it was at Vaclav Klaus. A President! Presumably you find that episode equally repugnant.) That House allows directly addressing the person you are robustly demolishing rather than the pathetic pantomine of having to address a partisan Speaker.

It is far more of a disgrace that one Parliamentarian should attempt to dictate what a Parliamentarian of another house can and cannot, should and should not, say when in their own Parliament.

Shame on you.

Tom,

YouTube stats show Dan’s speech up to 783,00 views.

Do you remember the words to “Ballad of a Thin Man”?

“Something’s happening but you don’t know what it is. Do you Mr Jones?”

@Simon Gardner

Is the same Obama who gave him a set of region 1 DVDs?

What is this name check?
A check list of names and pictures so he doesn’t make a faux pas?

Also, Obama isn’t the USA and the USA isn’t the rest of the world just a small part of it.

Dan Hannan simply articulated the feelings of very many voters.

A very great number of us neither like, trust nor respect this arrogant, mendacious man. (and that is just Labour supporters!)

The sooner we are allowed to express our opinion at the ballot box the better, before Brown does any more damage to this Country.

@Zorro 4.19pm
“……. If they screw up the country as badly as Brown has managed then I would expect people to criticize them for it. Saying this is unpatriotic is frankly bollocks. It would be unpatriotic NOT to say something when a politician is literally selling our country down the river..”

Precisely.
Hear! Hear!

Tom,

Do you not find it ironic that Hannan can make that speech in Brussels, yet would not be allowed to make it within one mile of the UK Parliament without being arrested and his DNA taken?

And now you want to shut him up where free speech is still allowed?

East Germany was better than New Labour’s Britain.

Don’t be silly, there’s a good chap.

Oh dear Tom!

Looks like my last comment touched a nerve eh?

So now you’ve taken to censoring out any criticism.

But then again – you are a Labour MP.

Labour don’t DO criticism.

The mainstream media are being criticised for not giving the same prominence to a speech by an unknown MEP as they did to the speech by Gordon Brown. Hmm…

Erm, no. The MSM are being criticised because they only told half of the story. They reported on Gordon’s speech. Check. They reported on one of the positive replies. Check. Anything else? Nope, nothing else happened, nothing at all.

If they had told the whole story they would have reported that both Dan Hannan and Nigel Farage responded with hostility.

As it stands however, people relying solely on MSM would have absolutely no idea that Gordon received anything other than a positive response, which is a lie.

Btw, since you find the idea that Gordon was barracked by his own side in a foreign country so abhorrent, and since you’re keen to mention that it’s always been historically so, surely you can see the newsworthyness of Dan Hannan’s speech? Care to join us therefore in slating the MSM for their selective reporting?

I can think of nothing more likely to turn moderate voters off than his strident, smug, arrogant neo-Thatcherism

If that were true, why is it that i’ve yet to read or hear of ANY condemnation of him or his message that didn’t come from someone holding Labour Party membership? Surely you don’t seek to label and dismiss every single one of his supporters as rabid right wingers? I think you’ve really misjudged the mood of the country if you think his message was a turn off to anyone.

What was truly repugnant about his speech was the total absence of any sense of patriotism.

for any UK politician to launch such a disgraceful, personal attack on his country’s leader — in a foreign country — is nothing short of disgraceful.

Utter bollocks! And disingenuous to boot!

Where was all this held? That’s right, the EU parliament. IN the chamber.

Those present were from a range of countries, and were there because it was their job to be there. To represent their large constituencies on the European stage. As part of their job, they had a right of 3 minutes to respond to a speech that was addressed to them and their constituents.

Everything that happened was part of their job.

I’d agree with you if Gordon was in the states say, and some Tory rent-a-quote MP decided to tear into him on CBS or FOX News during his trip. Then you’d have an argument of a disgraceful lack of patriotism. That’s the historical connection you’re looking for.

In the EU Parliament however? Not even close to being similar situations.

Painfully weak argument overall.

You confuse me. There are times when you’re independent, where I often agree with every word you type, and there are times like this when you’re a NuLab apparatchik with a painfully weak argument. I suspect you’re looking for balance between independence and defending the party, which is understandable.

I have to say though, your defence of the party does leave much to be desired on occasions, this being one of them.

Tom, You talk of Hannan’s lack of “patriotism” & claim he was disrespectful, but what do you think of Hannan’s opinions? Was what he said right or wrong?

What are your opinions on the subject?

Speaking as a floating voter, I would love a reply.

Thanks.

Aw didums….poor Mr Brown. Unfortunately everything Hannan said is true. The truth hurts. It’s criminal how a nation has been bankrupted and our grandchildren’s futures mortgaged off to stroke the ego of a non elected Prime Minister and his insane global debt campaign.

Mr Harris

I note with interest the only criticism you seem to be able to level against Daniel Hannan is that he was unpatriotic, not that he was misguided, misinformed or flat out wrong, just unpatriotic.

I also note with interest your dismissal of a number of other posters in somewhat rude & insulting terms.

At the risk of indulging in a straw man argument myself, if the level of thoughtful discourse you show today is at all representative of currently sitting Labour MPs then we are well and truly screwed.

K.

So a Prime Minister can’t ever be criticised, is that what you’re saying?

The truth is over the term of this Labour government it has turned it’s back on Westminster to a great extent. Just look at how little time was allowed to debate the huge, expansive CJ&I bill.

The fact is that there is no opportunity in the UK legislature to directly challenge Gordon Brown in the way Dan Hannan did in Strasbourg.

PMQs is a sham, Gordon Brown refuses to directly answer questions directed at him from the opposition. The only time we ever get anything close to approaching this is during the run up to elections, when we have staged-managed debating sessions.

Democracy, the legitimacy of Parliament and the standing of MPs in the public’s eyes is cheapened by the lack of true debate and accountability in England.

Brown is lucky he didn’t bump into me in Brussels Tom.

He got off very, very lightly compared to the “quantitative easing” I would have given him.

Ok, let’s say you’re right and Hannan has been unpatriotic. Is your beloved leader a true patriot then? Is your government?

I would like to add that in 1997 I went knocking on doors for Labour in Bermondsey to help get the vote out. I am not a Tory

1. A true patriot would look after British troops whilst on active duty.

So why did Major sebastian Morley quit the SAS because of the MoD’s failure to buy better equipment which he described as “cavalier at best, criminal at worst”?

2. A true patriot would safeguard our ancient liberties?

“World leading surveillance schemes….
Plans are emerging regarding surveillance of communications networks for the protection of copyrighted content….
Identity scheme still planned to be the most invasive in the world, highly centralised and biometrics-driven; plan to issue all foreigners with cards in 2008 are continuing” )From Privacy International).

How about freedom of speech and protest?

“At first light yesterday, Brian Haw was dragged from his slumber by police officers and arrested. His crime was that his bed – or to be more precise his sleeping bag – is within shouting distance of the Prime Minister’s bedroom.” (from the Independent)

3. Would a true patriot wreck our economy?

“PUBLIC borrowing soared by nearly £9 billion in February to reach record levels and plunge next month’s Budget into disarray.”

4. How about your former leader’s wife, you know the PM people actually elected? Is she a patriot, does she do the right thing?

“Sex: it’s a topic most political memoirists skate around. Not so Cherie, who even discusses the conception of her fourth child, Leo, during a trip to Balmoral, the Queen’s Scottish retreat. On the Blairs’ first visit to the castle, valets had unpacked Cherie’s toiletries, including what she refers to as “contraceptive equipment.” On a subsequent visit, she left the equipment at home to spare any blushes. That’s a courtesy her readers should definitely not expect.”

That’s from Time magazine.

5. Do true patriots criminalise their population, en masse?

“A woman whose dreadful singing drove her neighbours to despair has been silenced with an Asbo”

These a just a few of the things you have done to this country.

I am never voting Labour again. Nor will any memeber of my family. They are at a loss who to vote for. But don’t bother trying to win them round their hatred for Labour is beyond repair/

The only people who will vote for you are the vast armies of public sector sinecurists; the client population.

Of course it’s not in NuLab’s makeup to change. You better get used to being out of power for years and years and years.

I suggest you go look for someone else to have a pop at. You’ve wrecked the country. It’s about time someone did the patriotic thing and hauled Brown over the coals for his recklessness.

Silent Hunter at 7.43 pm: “So now you’ve taken to censoring out any criticism. ”

I’ve taken to deleting coments that are abusive of me or other individuals. Read my comments policy.

Delphius1 at 8.18 pm: “So a Prime Minister can’t ever be criticised, is that what you’re saying?”

Did you actually read the post?

So, British PM goes to European Parliament to make speech. This is a political act.
Members of that Parliament are then called on to reply.
Are you seriously telling us that there should be no criticism of the PM or his speech by British MEPs in those replies?

@Old Holborn
Brown is lucky he didn’t bump into me in Brussels Tom.

He got off very, very lightly compared to the “quantitative easing” I would have given him.

My my, aren’t we the big scary keyboard warrior today!

Just how pathetic and attention seeking do you get?

Grow up. There’s debate, disagreement, and there’s being outright stupid. Guess which category you fall into?

Gordon Brown doesn’t have a personal mandate. He is not our elected Prime Minister – in fact the only thing he is elected for is to represent his Constituency in Fife. Labour fought the last election with Tony Blair as Leader/Prime Minister promising that he would serve a full 3rd term. When Blair, under pressure from his Party, decided to step down he should have called a General Election.

Until we have a General Election we do not have a Prime Minister. I have NO respect whatsoever for a man who assumes the role without having the decency to go to the Country and get a mandate to govern.

Hannan was superb.

Labour have been given a very easy ride by the media. But when the truth is out as expressed by Mr Hannon, for most of us. just look at the reaction.
Labour have tried to crush England and it can be seen by just how much frustration there is out here.
Will you be able to stick it out till June 2010. Events dear boy events.

I did read your post Tom and think your point about it being “abroad” is spurious.

I think its spurious, because the EU legislature makes legislation for us as EU citizens and is by default an extension of the UK Legislature. Dan Hannan is an MEP elected in this country and has every right and responsibility to take the Prime Minister to task. I’m not playing party politics here, I would expect the same to happen if the parties were reversed.

Tell me where in the English Parliament can Gordon Brown be taken to task directly face to face like that? Certainly not during PMQs, protocol doesn’t allow it.

The fact Grodon Brown sat there grinning like a simpering chimp shows just how arrogant and out of touch the guy is. Some say delusional and the only thing that stops me agreeing with them is the lack of hard facts.

Dan Hannan isn’t unpatriotic. Its the duty of every person in this country to hold our leaders to account wherever the opportunity lies. For most of us that comes only at voting time. Dan Hannan was lucky in that he had an additional opportunity and rightly took it.

Tom;

To argue that Hannan was “unpatriotic” seems a bit thin on the ground.

Why don’t you do a post PROVING what he said was wrong?

Are you able to?

From 1979 to 1997, Labour MEPs have used their positions in the European Parliament to criticise Conservative Governments.Nothing new there, then!

Were you to make a speech is say two years time condemning say a Conservative Prime Minister from abroad, I would not call you unpatriotic. You would only be being true to your beliefs and acting in what believe to be the interests of your constituents. As it is reasonable to assume Daniel Hannan has.

Well, I agree with Tom. I think Hannon behaved disgracefully.

And given the Tories’ record in economic competence, they are absolutely the last people to criticise Brown’s handling of the economic crisis.

@ John

“My my, aren’t we the big scary keyboard warrior today!

Just how pathetic and attention seeking do you get?

Grow up. There’s debate, disagreement, and there’s being outright stupid. Guess which category you fall into?”

John, the OH blog is currently the 12th most influencial blog in the UK (Wikio) for a good reason. Millions are unemployed, our soldiers are dead and our currency is worth nothing. Our savings are decimated, our children are uneducated and feral and crime is rampant. Our every move is monitored, as if we were inmates in an open prison. Our mail is read, our phone calls listened to.

There are 646 of them. There are 60,000,000 of us.

It’s time they realised it. This really is a warning. When MY views (and trust me, you ain’t seen nothing yet) get more traffic than Tom’s blog can ever dream of, it’s time to wake up and smell a little coffee.

People have had enough. Not just my people. People.

If you really want to be patriotic Tom why don’t you and a bunch of Labour MPs cross the floor or renounce the Labour Party (and form Old Labour)?

If enough of you do it you can force legislative changes or even a General Election. Party loyalty cannot be stronger than loyalty to the country, surely?

Own goal Tom !

You’re proving yourself, surprisingly, to be as out of touch on this issue as the Great Gordon himself…

Well Tom,
I did read the article AND more importantly, all of the comments which all seem to point in one direction – namely that you have completely misjudged the public mood; but that’s OK, so has most of the Labour Party, which is why you should all be looking to your next career outside politics.

I was referring to my post which clearly didn’t make it past your moderation; whilst criticising your stance, it did not indulge in foul language or personal attacks as you disingenuously imply.
But I suppose, as you control what people see on your site, it makes it rather difficult to defend my position when ALL THE EVIDENCE is withheld from public gaze…………..a bit like the “evidence” for WMD when YOUR party lead us into an illegal war.

I used to think Tom, that you were one of the more ‘rational’ Labour MP’s, not quite in the league of the excellent Bob Marshall Andrews, but at least fair in your outlook – I was wrong it seems.

You may find that life in the Downing Street bunker (to paraphrase a well known campaign song) will only get bitter.

Prepare your exit from power. You are out of kilter with the electorate. You will not be required any longer.

Everybody should take every opportunity possible to criticise the unelected buffoon that we have as a PM. His list of faults is well set out above. maybe, if he was forced to sit & listen (not play around like the class pratt as in the Euro Parliament) he might come to realise it is time to go.

John, the OH blog is currently the 12th most influencial blog in the UK (Wikio) for a good reason.
—————————————-

Hey, fella, stop deluding yourself, and learn how to spell inflooenshial.

Out here (in the real world) your blog has zero repeat zero inflooens.

Get it. Got it. Good.

Tom Please respond to Lukes request. Please tell us about you views on the content.

I love this response to Chris Burley -

Lots of time on your hands, I assume, Chris?

There will be lots of time for all of us to reflect on the last 12 years. Quite a legacy.

Keep responding Tom.

No chance of Tom responding to the content, is there? Likewise he’s reluctant to post critical comment without censorship. As always, attack the man not the ball.

From Nicky@1024pm:

“Well, I agree with Tom. I think Hannon behaved disgracefully.

And given the Tories’ record in economic competence, they are absolutely the last people to criticise Brown’s handling of the economic crisis.”

At last.

A commment agreeing with Tom’s position.

One out of what…a hundred odd posts?

Did it take you long to type, Tom? Or did you ask your secretary to do it?

1. “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it”. But, of course, that basic tenet of our freedom and democracy has been eroded – if not removed – by this maladministration.

2. So your logic is that if the European Parliament was sitting in Strasbourg, only French MEPs could criticise Sarkozy? So what is the point of the institution as a multi-national assembly if its elected members cannot criticise its component nations’ policies and politicians as they see fit? It’s called democracy.

3. If Hannan had no right to criticise Brown – or any other politician from an EU member state, what is the point of any of us voting for MEPs in June?

4. And Tom – your responses to the replies to your post sound increasingly like those of a petulant child, rather than reflecting the (hoped for) objectivity of an elected legislator.

Tom,
Well at least you let that one through – more like the old Labour Tom ;o)

I like to pride myself on being fair and equitable and I hate to see the underdog getting such a good kicking (well deserved as it may be for your original comments) but would you not now consider that your knee jerk defence of your leader is somewhat out of step with the people of this country?

Just put aside your party allegiance for one moment, and think…..is Gordon Brown “doing all this” for the sake of the country…………or for what’s best for………..Gordon Brown?

Come on Tom!

Time to wake up!

Tom, you are as out of touch as Gordon Brown is with the british people, I have voted Labour all my life and will be voting Tory.

Hannan’s speak was exactly on the page of ordinary british people thinking.

Maybe NOW you lot will listen to the people… Read the comments.

YOU work FOR the PEOPLE. Now the people are having THEIR say.

The question is “will you listen”?

Mr. Harris, why the sniping at comments? You could answer the points substantively; or just let them stand without responding.

It is this government’s pathological aversion to questioning and doubt of its policies that have caused it to blunder from one policy disaster to another. If you, and politicians of all colours answered questions openly and honestly that might be a start to restoring some trust in politics.

For your party it is all the more important, you are in government and we, the people, are entitled to hold you to account and question your actions. We are entitled to expect opposition politicians to take part in that process. It’s what democracy is all about.

Here’s a bit of perspective for you:

“A new directive on unfair commercial practices require businesses for the first time to act fairly towards consumers and will outlaw disreputable trading activities. Fortune-tellers will have to tell customers that what they offer is “for entertainment only” and not “experimentally proven…Those who break the new laws will face fines of up to £5,000 and possibly up to two years in jail…”

Does it not strike you as odd that we live in a country where Gypsy Rosa Lee can go to prison for telling you that you might meet a tall dark stranger who will cross your palm with silver and yet politicians routinely answering any questions about how they are governing the country? Has Gordon Brown ever answered a question put to him at PMQ’s.

Derek Draper, Peter Madelson: all you really need to know when it comes to what lies at the heart of this government.

Coming rather late to the debate, I saw some of the stuff on telly last night.

Have to say I thought Hannah was rude, crude and cowardly.

Rude because the PM was a guest in his chamber and it is just plain bad manners to invite someone into your house and then launch such a porsonal attack.

Crude because he could have made his point with more intelligence and sublety, if he had been more intelligent, of course….

And cowardly, because he knew that GB, as a guest and a Prime Minister, had no recourse to any meaningful reply or response.

Personally, I’d have biffed him….

You wrote:

“What was truly repugnant about his speech was the total absence of any sense of patriotism. Some Tories on the extreme right of the party share the problem of some Republicans in the States: they don’t regard the head of government to be the nation’s leader unless he or she is also a member of their little party.”

I did not like Hannan’s speech, but to call it non-patriotic misses one of the huge virtues of the system of constitutional monarchy. We in the UK can feel free to attack any political heads of government without being unpatriotic precisely because our head of state is the Queen.

liam Hemmings at 1.15 pm: “Mr. Harris, why the sniping at comments? You could answer the points substantively; or just let them stand without responding.”

Of course, I could answer the points substantively, but you miss the point of blogging if you think that, just because I happen to be an MP, I have to dance to others’ tunes on this blog. I blog what I like and on any subject I like. And if I want to mock people who leave silly comments, that is my privilege. Check out the Comments tab at the top of the page – you were well warned in advance.

An MEP’s Chamber is the European Parliament. They can’t talk as Parliamentarian’s anywhere else, and if a Prime Minister (who is not a Head of State) comes to their Parliament to give them a lecture they are entitled to respond as they see fit within the rules of their House.

Hannan’s speech was very well delivered, but it was opportunistic, it did contain inaccuracies, and was hardly a blueprint for getting us out of the mess we’re in.

It’s true significance is that he had a chance to do something seemingly denied to anyone in the UK and he did so with panache and Brown’s demeanour showed how foreign it was to him and how much he disliked it.

The real news story is the response of those in the MSM and Politics such as yourself who seem to think that Gordon Brown should continue his disastrous premiership protected from any public criticism by his opponents.

“The real news story is the response of those in the MSM and Politics such as yourself who seem to think that Gordon Brown should continue his disastrous premiership protected from any public criticism by his opponents.”

Please point out exactly where I have said so and I will immediately apologise. The point I was trying to make (and which you obviously missed) was about attacking one’s country’s prime minister while in an another country. Disagree with that view by all means, but don’t try to claim I said something altogether different.

@Alex,

“And cowardly, because he knew that GB, as a guest and a Prime Minister, had no recourse to any meaningful reply or response.”

GB had his speech. The MEPs in the chamber then get the right to reply. I’m not aware of any Labour MEPS standing up to support him, but then maybe they didn’t do it with such style.

Alex said:

“Coming rather late to the debate, I saw some of the stuff on telly last night.

Personally, I’d have biffed him….”

How terribly brave of you.

Rude? The treatment of Brown was far more respectful than the treatment meeted out to Vaclav Klaus not so long ago. I do not recall many on the left crying out that it too was a disgrace, and Klaus is a head of state.

Crude? Testing times call for plain language, not the mealy mouthed weasel words and empty promises that come from most UK politicians on all sides.

Cowardly? I guess you missed the response Brown was allowed after all the other speakers had finished.

“….if you think that, just because I happen to be an MP, I have to dance to others’ tunes on this blog. I blog what I like and on any subject I like. And if I want to mock people who leave silly comments, that is my privilege… ”

That’s about what I would expect. After all it is your ball and you can play with it just how you like.

I reckon you might have been rumbled: you act like you’ve a choice in mocking the commentators. I don’t think you have that choice: mockery is all you have left; all the substantive comments are probably a bit to difficult for you to deal with.

Rather than resorting to low-rent politics why not address any of the specific issues that Hannan raised?

I’d say it was because he was right. I’d say it was because statism has again been proved to be a an intellectually and financially bankrupt policy.

And BTW Gordon Broon isn’t my leader. I never voted for him nor did anyone else outside Lanarkshire.

“Disagree with that view by all means…”

I think, Tom, that we comprehensively have.

Fair play to you, though, for sticking to your guns.

@ Alex:

“…peronally I’d have biffed him…”

Really?

I thought it was more like a Labour supporter to use one of the 60,000 tazers that Jacquie Smith has equipped the police with to …er?…..’protect the public from all those terrorists’; which no doubt we will see being put to good use at the G20 ‘afternoon’ LOL summit, when they mistake all those people protesting against Gordon Brown for “trrrsts”

BTW I like the flower you have as an avatar – what is it? A weed dipped in the blood of murdered Iraqi children?

@patrick mockridge

Lanarkshire? Don’t blame us in the West. It’s people in one part of Fife who keep voting for him. Talk about an Iron Curtain.

Tom,

Thank you or correcting my spelling of the Home Secretary’s name ;o) prior to posting my comment. I’m sure she would appreciate it.

Happie too hellp

@ Jim Baxter

Well said. The people who voted for Gordon Brown live in a particular part of Fife. Although they are obviously not very particular.

““The real news story is the response of those in the MSM and Politics such as yourself who seem to think that Gordon Brown should continue his disastrous premiership protected from any public criticism by his opponents.”

Please point out exactly where I have said so and I will immediately apologise. The point I was trying to make (and which you obviously missed) was about attacking one’s country’s prime minister while in an another country. Disagree with that view by all means, but don’t try to claim I said something altogether different.”

Granted – the explicit focus of your remarks was the absence of ‘patriotism’ inherent in a British politician chastising Brown abroad.

My point is that Hannan’s debating chamber as an MEP is in Strasbourg/Brussels and the restriction (of honour and patriotism) you would impose effectively prevents him from responding as he is entitled to as an MEP when a Member State’s PM turns up in the MEP’s Chamber to deliver a speech. I think that’s nonsense in this case when the context of both Brown’s speech and Hannan’s reply was the debate raging across Europe as to whether more borrowing is the answer to the current financial crisis. Hannan effectively said not, and that over-borrowing in the UK was in fact the problem the blame for which could be put very personally at Brown’s door. On that basis he urged that Brown’s message should be rejected and said that Brown lacked moral authority to deliver it. You don’t have to agree with everything he said, but that was a legitimate response to Brown’s speech made in the appropriate forum, indeed argualy the only, if not the most, appropriate forum.

You conflate that very specific situation with the totally different one of a Westminster Politician using the occasion of a visit abroad for electioneering or making party political points. That would indeed be off and I wouldn’t expect Cameron, Clegg, or Brown or any members of any Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet to do that. I agree that there is a convention that Westminster Politicians do not do that.

Hannan was nowhere near that position, and I cannot help wondering if you would see that more clearly if this little episode had not landed a blow on Mr. Brown, as it undoubtedly has. Your response, like so many others, is merely making it a bigger deal than even Hannan accepts it deserves to be.

Tom,

Although I cannot agree with your politics – I like a man with a sense of humour. )

Patriotism is the love of one’s country, not the love of some politician. Hannan was being patriotic by pointing out that Brown is intent on bankrupting the country, which he doesn’t want to happen.

You have to be kidding me. Why shouldn’t political leaders be questioned on foreign soil when they are running their countries into the ground. I might understand the complaint if the offending criticism was to the benefit of an enemy country in a time of war, but this is to the benefit of the UK.

“What was truly repugnant about his speech was the total absence of any sense of patriotism.”

Says the Scot, representing a Scottish seat, ruling over the English.

Tom, with all due respect (none), please sod off back to Scotland and then I might listen to something that you say about patriotism.

But probably not.

DK

By the way, what is more unpatriotic — criticising the PM in a foreign country, or giving away the sovereign powers of this country to a foreign country.

The Tories are guilty of this too, but your party most certainly are… EU Constitution, anyone?

DK

In case you missed it here is the earlier one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDwQEEAZhWM

Hannan is an elected member of the Parliament and it’s as proper for him to criticise Brown as it would be for a member of the parliamentary opposition to criticise Brown.

I used to me a member of the LP – I was a member in ‘97 when Blair was elected. Brown has had two jobs since ‘97. If anyone can carry the can for this mess it’s Gordon ‘we will never return to the old boom and bust’ Brown.

I will never vote for the LP with Brown in charge, McNulty and others behaving in the worst possible way, and you calling someone ‘thick’ just because they disagree with you.

Dan Hannan’s excellent anti-Brown speech now has been viewed over 1.5 million times on Youtube and has inspired over 10,000, largely positive, responses there.

I understand it is the most popular political video ever posted to YouTube. Many of the comments I’ve seen from Americans invite Dan to stand for US President.

That’s an astounding accomplishment and one that hardly accords with your description of Dan’s speech, Tom. Well done, Dan!

‘From the comments received so far, the consensus seems to be that it’s not on to criticise the PM while abroad, unless he’s a Labour PM. Oh, and suddenly every commenter has turned rabidly pro-Europe‘

You can’t even represent your own blog comments accurately, can you?

Your alarming attempt to rule criticism out of order in the European Parliament sits well with the authoritarian tendencies of your Party.

As for being pro-Europe, let’s see what the voters of this country actually think by letting them vote on the Constitution – something your party promised it would do.

You’re no democrat. Call an election and get the hell out.

Just to sum up: the Queen is the leader of the country; the PM is the servant of the people, who, despite doing an awful job, cannot be fired.

Tom with reference to “UPDATE at 12.48 pm: From the comments received so far, the consensus seems to be that it’s not on to criticise the PM while abroad, unless he’s a Labour PM. Oh, and suddenly every commenter has turned rabidly pro-Europe. Go figure…”
I think it is you and your colleagues who need to “go figure” exactly why you and your (sorry our) illustrious leader are held in such low regard and what to do about it. You have no understanding of the feelings amongst the electorate who are sick and tired of Brown, who frankly,is so far below the level of Prime Ministerial material as to be virtually off the radar. His succession, to Blair, was (with hindsight I admit) a glaring mistake. He just is not cut out for the job – not up to it. He cannot even control his own party with any degree of dignity as the antics of Smith, McNulty and Griffiths illustrate. Moral authority – he has none. I want to vote Labour – desperately so – but would not vote for the shower they have in cabinet now. You can add Milliband Balls Cooper Vaz Mandelson and many others to the list of those who are undersuspicion for one thing or another. Its to many.

I’m amused how Tom Harris thinks recognizing a fact automatically equates to supporting it.

The bald fact is Hannan had every right to make that speech as we are, like it or not, part of the EU. It isn’t a foreign Parliament as such, and Hannan is supposed to stand up for his constituents.

Tom, stop digging. You’ve made a lovely hole for yourself, we all do it at some time or another, but most of have enough sense to stop digging and start to recognize how wrong we are. Might want to give that a try.

Oh, and your lovely snarky comment to Chris Burley was brilliant. The strategy of chucking people on the dole and then being patronizing to them is certainly a brave one, not sure how you plan to make it translate into electoral success however…

The Queen’s our national figurehead, not Gordon Brown.

Hannan was speaking as a representative of a British constituency in a legislature he was elected into. He was doing what he was elected to do. The EU Parliament isn’t the same as, for example, the UN General Assembly.

Sorry to be bringing up the rear on this, but I didn’t get to hear what Hannan had to say until the BBC (yes, the BBC!) showed some of it.

Hannan even appeared on Newsnight. I thought that what he had to say then was just as powerful. A political star is born.

It goes to show that when Auntie hitches up her skirts, she can run just as fast as anyone else.

But it also goes to show that the real debate is increasingly taking place online, and that the BBC is following the news rather than leading it.

I have nothing to add to what the other commenters here have said. I personally don’t have anything against Our Great Leader. He got the job of PM because it was buggin’s turn. And he certainly does a very good job of playing the role of an East European Party Leader.

But (and nothing against your fine writing, Tom) as ever it’s the comments that are more significant than the blog entry, the audience more important than the play.

I thought the whole point about the EU was supposed to be that they weren’t foreign any more. Isn’t that what Labour, the LudDims & even to some extent Conservatives believe?

In any case the argument still falls if Hannan genuinely believes that the mess Brown is making of things is not in our best interests. Supporting the best interests of your country IS patriotism.

[...] a big admirer of Tom Harris MP – a sentiment which, as far as I can tell, is wholly unreciprocated. One of the things I enjoy is that he’s unpredictable. He is easily the best Labour blogger, [...]

Blimey, just found this blog. What a kicking your readers gave you, Tom.

And what a ridiculous argument, that he was being unpatriotic-Brown hasn’t been crowned yet.

I have never known a sadder time in politics! Our so called leader has totally lost all semblance of leadership, his party is in freefall with ministers embarrassing themselves and the party daily. We have utterly weird performances on You Tube (how on earth did ANYONE think that expenses performance would win over ANYONE??? How out of touch is Brown and his advisors to think that would work????). Yet in the middle of this we have a man so convinced that he is correct and right on all issues that he simply cannot see any criticism? Such a public humiliation, such desperation to hang onto power and such a mess they are leaving behind.
This one time Labour supporter has given up hope, and is now a conservative. The current labour party is in such a mess, how could ANYONE vote for them now…?

Well done, Daniel Hannan. You are speaking as a true Conservative as regards the unelected EU. If Cameron wants to sit on the fence, he should join the Liberal Democrats, but of course they are not democrats as they fully support all the EU Treaties that have not been ratified by the British People. I call it a Lefty Liberal Dictatorship. Good luck to Daniel.