And another thing…

Well said.

It would have been an obscenity from whichever direction.

Tom,

I think you’ll find that Derek Draper, to coin a Whelian phrase – Doesn’t DO apology!

And to paraphrase that other well known saying –

With friends like Derek Draper, who needs enemies? LOL

I have to say that it rather looks like those in the Downing Street Bunker haven’t got a clue.

Cheer up everyone – we’ll soon be at that great marker; “less than a year left of Labour”

On a personal note Tom – welcome back & I hope you had a pleasant Easter break. )

Why, in the world, is it so hard for anyone in the Government to admit this? It’s not like it’s a new way for Brown to run his office and his politics, this kind of extreme attack-dog stuff has been going on for years.

He can’t seriously expect people to believe him when he says there’s no place for this in politics?

That said, I don’t think there’s much hay to be made by the Tories because the electorate will believe both sides are at it. A plague on all their houses.

So, do you think Mr Watson, Mr Whelan et-al should go too ?

And what if we find Mr McBride is re-appointed as an adviser during the next election ?

Well said Tom, I’m sure your comments will be well received by all sides.

This weekend has been the very first time in 17 years in the Labour Party that I have been ashamed of my party and some of the vermin it chooses to employ.

This is going to cause so much damage on the doorstep its untrue. Not the fact that its on Guido or iain dale, 99.9% of the electorate will not of evern heard of them , but 3 .4 million people will be spewing into thir corflakes this morning after reading the NOTW.

truely shaming.

I’m not downplaying it when I say it’s a Westminster Village story. We are just turning the public off discussing things they just aren’t remotely engaged with.

http://cllrtim.blogspot.com/

At last a voice from the Labour side that is genuine in explaining that this is one huge cock up. I mean.. and the… mental health!!! What would Jesus think!!!

Very Angry, especially since this whole affair appears to have been part tax payer funded .

Thankyou – a very dignified and correct response.

It’s a storm in a teacup in the same sense of that phrase as, for example, was George Brown’s infamous speech as Foreign Secretary at a reception for the Turkish President in 1967 or his behaviour a few days earlier at a dinner given by the then owner of the Times.

All very exciting, embarrassing and indefensible at the time but forgotten by all but a few politics nerds a few weeks later…

Please accept my sincere appreciation of what you have said. It needed to be said by any sane person with an ounce of moral backbone.

However.

You must realise by now that the New Labour project is systemically and institutionally wicked. There can be no other conclusion a person could make after ten years of lies and spin. The fact that the Prime Minister, unelected by the people or his party, could continue to surround himself with vicious messengers of evil, knowing that people such as McBride, Mandelson and lots of faceless ones, have form; the conduct in matters of state having fallen far below what you would expect of the office.

The only possible answer is to resign the whip and join the SNP, a party of true Socialist vision, with Scottish values and national pride, who are committed to meeting their manifesto pledges and who do not spend every waking hour plotting against Iain Gray.

If you do this, you would do the country a favour and you would do the same for your conscience, which must be tattered and torn by the contradictions of your position.

Well said Tom – are you watching the car crash that is Liam Byrne’s defence of the evil 2?

You should put yourself up Tom for an interview and you will raise the Labour Party standing up a hundred notches. Your party is being dragged down into the depths of the mire by McB, Draper, Watson and Brown.

If Gordon Brown is serious about maintaining standards in Public Office, he should call in the Police and have McBride charged with Malfeasance in Public Office. For that is precisely what it was. McBride was paid as a Civil Servant; he broke the Civil Service code; he used Government time, equipment and the Government Secure Intranet to disseminate these emails.

This is a vile Government: the sooner it is consigned to the dustbin of history, the better.

Nice to read what you said Tom. However, do you honestly think that this project would not have gone ahead?
Do you honestly think that the Dear Leader had not one inkling of what was being hatched?
I don’t and nor will many millions of people in this country.

Welcome back Tom, I agree with you here. Labour should be wheeling you out to appear on tv because you would do a far better job than some of them so far.

I don’t know if we’ve seen all the content yet, Guido apparently has said they are too obscene to print, but this ‘campaign’ seems particularly nasty.

I’m not sure I should say this, but my wife came to an immediate conclusion this morning regarding the possible implication in the Cameron ’smear’, that was sickening.

The implication may not be intentional but it does seem obvious. I only hope it wasn’t meant…

Has McBride actually left the civilservice?

Or is this another “resignation” like the head of the revenue when the 25million names were lost?

He turned up with an enhanced pension doing “special projects” in the Treasury until normal retirement

I’m sure I’ve asked you this before, but do you fancy a short walk?

My God you’re a confusing individual.

When I first found this place and started commenting back early last summer I think it was, I remember thinking what a decent, honest, sensible guy you were. I looked forward to your take on various situations that emerged because it was clear that you weren’t any kind of typical Labour shill, you thought independently, and I found myself agreeing with you 90% of the time.

In fact, I was so surprised to see that the Labour Party could be like that, as I always thought Blair was fighting the class envy and worse undercurrent, that I seriously considered joining the party and even blogging for the New Labour that I thought was dead the moment the Blair motorcade left Downing Street for the last time.

Then there were times over the last few months where more and more of your blogposts seemed to come from the Derek Draper school of political commentary. They were pretty much attack blogs that had really flimsy half told arguments to reach a positive labour and negative conservative conclusion. Your attitude towards me and other commenter’s also seemed to be far more hostile than it initially was.

I was quite disappointed. I thought i’d been quite naive in my initial assessment, and that you were now showing your true colours, that you are just like the rest of the borderline sinister attacking members of your party.

Then came a few more blogposts in the ilk of when you started blogging, and now this. A reasoned sensible blogpost that we can all get behind. You have once again shown that you are head and shoulders above your colleges and actually “get it”.

So, i’m confused again.

Just what are you Tom Harris? Do I owe you an apology for my recent passive aggressive indifference towards you? (something I thought was basically reciprocating your own attitude towards me and other commenter’s) Or, am I being naive again?

You’re a conundrum.

Well said Tom, but I am sorry we (thats all of us Conservative, Labour and non) have what is a very obvious problem at the heart of British politics, we have a British Richard Nixon sitting at the top of our political and democratic system.

Brown does not have the values fit to be in Parliament never mind in Downing Street.

The idea that he did not know about this is crass, he might not know the details but he sets the agenda, he sets the rules, everyone knows he is a control freak, he is without doubt the mind behind all this, his attitude and personality cultivate what is at the end of the day HATE.

I think the PLP are really up against time, I suspect there are considerable legal implications for MacBride actions and that off the No10 back office, between that and the Euro elections and the what is looking like triumph for the BNP, at the expense of Labour, the next month or two are going to be dynamite.

As ive said to you before IT WHISKEY AND REVOLVER TIME.

Well said – ethical politics and ethical government deserves a comeback.

This is a shameful business.

Sky describe Draper as being in charge of Labour’s online activities (or somesuch form of words). Surely he has to be sacked?

Tom, well done for standing up for what is correct and proper, just a pity that Labour at the top did not have the same principles. Hard to believe that Labour can get much lower than this and hopefully decent people in the government ( assume there are still some left ) will now start to fight against the current regime.

John at 11.48 am: A conundrum, eh? Well I’ve been called worse…

Whatever you think of various posts here, you should know that I never write anything I don’t believe, and certainly would never write anything I don’t believe at the behest of someone else in the party.

The Labour party of which I am a member has truly sunk to new lows.Draper should be kicked out of the party forthwith and please no more imbecilic comments from the likes of Liam Byrne.
Deeply shameful day.

“I wasn’t lying on purpose.”

—Derek Draper on Channel 4 News

You do understand, Tom, that this has Brown’s fingerprints all over it, don’t you? His history of smearing (even Blair) tells us that this is his baby. And you lot just opened the door for him…

Sean is right. 12.15 and nobody has said, ‘A fish rots from the head yet’. OK, I’ll take my turn to say it. I believe it too. The comparisons with Nixon are accurate. Iain Dale makes them too today.

Silver lining? Poor June results and this mess and Gordon to go? best for country and party.

If there were more people like you in the Labour government the country or the Labour party would not be in the mess that has been created. So well said Tom. The only pity is that it is now to little and far to late. Far more needs to be done to clean up the Labour party, but at the top its become their way of life so they do not see anything wrong with it.

I think the actions of Draper and McBride are despicable, but it is Paul Staines who has chosen to publish these letters for, as Iain Dale says, his “pleasure.”

I don’t even see that this is especially bad for the government. It looks like cheap students politics on TV news – the more so whenever Draper or Staines speak – and it has taken attention away from Jaqui Smith’s expenses. I bet she loves Paul Staines just now!

Happy Easter to all.

Great post Tom. As this is such an obviously massive back-fire, I can’t understand why Liam B is attempting to down play it.

WTF? It needs to be denounced for what it is and everyone involved expelled. That is the only way that Labour could possibly stop their Nasty Party land grab.

And Mr Brown didn’t know – pfft.

Thanks Tom. As a Labour blogger who has already mentioned his disgust, the more Labour Party activists who speak honestly and from a non tribal perspective about this, the more we can protect what once of dignity we have left! :/

Respect for your comments on where Labour’s position should be on this.

Although we could do without the speculation of what Conservatives might or might not be thinking (could that be called spin?).

The question is, is this the end of this sordid tale of political detritus?

Tom, you exhibit an appropriate (and unfortunatley it must be said, refreshing) sense of decency that I would expect from you (and from most in the Labour Party). So why can you colleagues not just say what you have said thus making it clear that the Labour Party – and the Government – do not think this is okay? The impression given so far is that it is okay if you don’t get caught.

The critical thing in my opinion is whether this putative RedRag site was in fact shelved as McBride and Draper are now claiming, or was ongoing. Some say it was still likely to emerge until it was bubbled by Guido. And Gaby in the Observer has been fed the line that it was only put on ice in the last week or two.

It would be some consolation if these two clowns had the sense to spike this stuff. I know it is trivialising to say this but that would surely make it a bit of a “Dog Doesn’t Bite Man” story with Guido the one bringing this stuff into the public domain rather than pre-empting Draper’s publication?

So, had this plan been spiked in January? Or not? Draper must walk.

… either way.

Please, please, don’t get Draper fired. He’s a one man election loser. Well, him and Gormless Gordon.

Thank you Tom. This has been an embarrassing situation made worse by those drawn into it by Downing Street.

I cannot read Labourlist. The site was intended to offer a balance in the blog world which is dominated by right of centre bloggers. I also recall that you were not invited to the planning meetings – astonishing given the success of your blog at that time!!! I welcomed the introduction of a labour blog. It was “official” and I hoped it would follow the example of 20-20 vision set up by Charles Clarke and Alan Milburn. It seemed an opportunity to discuss policy as well as keeping us up to date. For me it became a continual spat between Paul Staines and Derek Draper. I was often offended by the tone of the argument and felt that the site was not for me. I have no problems with political disagreement but loathe personal insult and gutter politics. I am sure I am not alone in holding these views. Derek Draper has let the party down by involving himself in the contin ual arguments, by lying about the existence of these e mails, his aggressive manner on television and his failure to recognise that the content of the email would be abhorrent to reasonable people regardless of their political persuasion.

Further, I am shocked that the PM would have an advisor with such a character as Mr McBride. They have worked together for many years and I have no doubt that Mr McBride was doing what he felt was right by his boss and the party. Somehow, I do not feel that Tony Blair would have someone of this ilk around him when he was in Downing Street.

We still need a balance of blogs. I for one will be emailing Downing Street to have Derek Draper removed. I shall be suggesting that you are given the job of overseeing the party message in the blog world. You can always say no!!!!

An admirable post.
I just hope you know who your true friends are.

You’ve been sliding down this hill for quite some time. Over a year ago I was a appointed as a special adviser to the Health Committee’s enquiry into the electronic patient record. Ministers did not want Labour MPs to listen to independent advice on their latest project disaster, and so smeared me in both Houses of parliament by selective quotation from emails leaked by a civil servant. No-one in Parliament was surprised or even bothered; civilian casualties seem to be quite OK. Yet when the victims are senior MPs, then suddenly it’s a national scandal.

For crying out loud Tom, will you stop it? I first came across you following your dismissal of the Libertarian 1984 book gift. I still think you were wrong in your response, but there you go.

Then you went and wrote that post on benefits and single mothers, I had to look again to make sure I wasn’t seeing things.

Now this.

Direct question, Tom. Why can’t everyone in your party react with the same candour?

Why have we had to see Liam Byrne looking a total clown this morning (other than the fact he is a total clown)? Why is it we keep hearing ‘it is within the rules’ and other platitudes that are designed to deflect attention away from things that are just wrong? We’re not stupid, we can see you know.

When last on here I suggested you keep close to Frank Field. I’m now seeing you edge nearer to the awkward squad. Like Skinner and Bob M-A, I may think you are wrong a lot of the time, but that beats mendacity any day and at least it shows a degree of honesty. . .

Tom,

“We screwed up, big time. We have no-one — absolutely no-one at all — to blame for this but ourselves.”

You can blame yourself if you like, but I don’t think you should, nor should you blame the rest of the Party for what McBride & Co. did. I don’t feel a sense of responsibility for their actions, and am quite happy to condemn them for what they did.

They didn’t speak for me or for the rest of the Labour Party and we should make that clear.

RJT

You might not like us having a gloat, but what would you expect us to do?

The story of the Tory MP using his position to the advantage of his partner would, quite correctly, have caused quite a stir on it’s own. It’s bad for it to have disappeared in all the smoke.

There is, however, the ongoing scandal of how shamelessly Draper continues to lie:

For example:
Mr Draper branded the idea of an orchestrated Downing Street campaign as “ridiculous” (BBC).

This plan involved Derek Draper, Andrew Dodgshon, Charlie Whelan and was led by No 10’s Damian McBride. There plainly was an orchestrated Downing Street plan. How dare he still deny it?

Draper: “I did not want these stories in the public domain”

Reconcile that with:
“These are absolutely totally brilliant Damian.

I’ll think about timing and sort out the technology with Andrew this week so we can go asap.”

On second thoughts don’t bother: they can’t be reconciled. He plainly was going to put them in the public domain via Red Rag.

You really ought to distance your Party from that man. He’s a liability. He can’t even lie convincingly.

Tom, you should probably forward your post to Pound – he’s been touring the studios embarrassing himself and your party.

Here, here Tom.

And I’d like to join those other members of the Labour Party you have already voiced their revulsion at this episode and the mode of ‘politics’ it represents.

Shamful and deeply depressing.

I voted Labour from 1997 onwards but have been drifting back to the Conservatives nad this episode has given me a big push in that direction. However, I’ve just found an honest and decent Labour politician who hasn;r tried to excuse or fudge the situation. Well done

Spoken like the gentleman You are Tom, there is no substitute for common decency.

Mr Harris

Having witnesses the pitiful sights of Liam Byrne and Stephen Pound making complete fools of themselves trying to spin the unspinnable over the last few hours it is good to read a decent, sensible Labour response that the public can identify with.

The party should now expel McBride, Draper and any other members involved in this.

I don’t believe that the PM will be able to rid himself of the stench from this.

Tom,

Why has it taken until now for you to speak out about McBride? He’s not known as McPoison for nothing, and you know it. In not speaking out until he’s finally been caught out, you show your true colours.

DPR

“it’s a Westminster Village story”

I am sorry but it takes a perverted view of the constitution to see corruption like this RIGHT AT THE HEART OF THE PMs OFFICE as “just a Westminster village story”.

This was Senior Civil Servant working directly for the PM. It seems it was done on Govermnet computers on our time and using our money – for Party purposes.

Furthermore us cretins outside the M25 do actually want to see an honest and competent government and we still have votes. As is clear from the emails we have seen, this was an attempt to fix the next election through lies and smears. The Party will pay a heavy price for this.

It was sleazy, dishonest and dishonourable. One day we say ‘Sorry Mr Cameron that you have just lost your son’ and another ‘Tee hee, have you ever had an STD David?’

The Party and Government reaction is also appalling. I just saw Liam Byrne on . He was totally utterly unbeleiveable. It was ‘ just a few emails between friends’.

Yes Laim. We believe you. Friends who developed a plan, bought a web domain last November, registered it in a false name and paid a Web design firm to create a website. Friends who were discussing not only the content of the lies they would tell but how best to phase them and when to issue them to create the maximum destabilisation in the Tory top team.

The Government line wont wash. And why I am forced to ask is the Government lying about this? What are they doing trying to hide and cover up? Why?

I can only conclude that somewhere it was sanctioned.

What I want to know is who exactly likes Draper?. He makes Iain Dale look like an intellectual heavyweight; he’s a spin doctor who can’t actually spin; and he’s caught lying about twice a week.

I’ve never encountered a fellow member of the Labour party who says, “Woah! Derek Draper! What would we do without him?!”

‘To those comrades who might feel tempted to downplay this episode……’

Tom, in what is an otherwise decent enough post saying what needs to be said, I think you do yourself a disservice by creating a comrade-based straw man.

Assuming that your use of the word ‘comrade’ is an allusion to those, like me, on the left of the Labour party – and I can’t really see why you’d use the term otherwise – I’d invite you to review any of the leftwingish blogs that you know and see if you can see any serious attempts to ‘downplay the episode’.

Sure, there’ll be a few whoch say that it’s a bit rich for someone like G Fawkes to come over all self-righteous about smears (try Bob Piper).

Sure, there’ll be some that say that, in general blogs, might be better focusing on substantive politics (try Hopi, though he’s not exactly your stereotyped ‘comrade’).

But I don’t think there are too many seriously doing the ’storm in a teacup’ thing, because most recognise that Draper et al are bad news for what should and can be the essentials of poltical debate (as in debate about policy), in just the same way as G Fawkes is bad news (see Next Left).

Remember that Labourlist is not, much as you would now like it, a creation of the Left. It is a creation of the mainstream command and control party which much of the left, even centre-left, has little time for, and has said as much on blogs unfettered by such command (see Sunder at LibCon).

Sometimes the theatrics of your anti-leftism can get in the way of what remains of your sound judgment, before it was gnawed at by the trolls who inhabit your site.

I’ve always wondered why such a nice, honest MP such as yourself hasn’t risen to the top of the Labour party. Recent events explain why it’s the scum that rises up.

You should campaign for leadership.

Tom

Maybe it’s time to consider crossing the floor (the real floor, not the one north of the border)?

Your views seem much closer in general to Cameron than Brown and one does not get any sense at all of this sort of behaviour in the ever-tightening Cameron camp. However, one gets a very stong sense that this is part and parcel of Gordon Brown.

You could do worse than to follow your nose to cleaner air……..

@ Brett-Chorley 3:04

LOL! No chance of that happening.

A good post, Tom. It shows the streak of honesty which makes you entirely unsuitable for government.

Are you sitting down, Tom?

Well said. )

It’s irrelevant that McPoison wrote these things by email and spent “only about an hour” doing so. Imagine if he had written them on 10 Downing Street headed letter paper. Writing them via a government email account is no different from writing them on official letter paper. Presumably he wouldn’t have written mere tittle-tattle on the official letter paper, so nor can this email be dismissed as such.

The Red Rag website always was an embarrassment-in-waiting. The clue is in the name (H/T Obo):

http://www.redrag.co.nz/

BTW, might I add to the comments giving you credit for not trying to spin this.

Admitting to a cock-up is politically damaging in the short term, yet it is a necessary step in the long process of regaining the public’s trust.

As another conservative, I applaud what you have written. There is some decency left in politics and I will remember your action.
Having said that, Mr McBride was a civil servant and should not have been using taxpayers’ money for political ends. It is inconceivable that others in Number 10, including possibly Mr Brown himself, knew about and condoned what McBride was doing.
I think that story has more mileage yet but your stand for decency is appreciated.

Jane @ 1.38pm.

I totally agree with you. I have been a Labour supporter in every election for nearly 40 years. And no, I’m not mental, stupid, or deranged, as is often suggested by right wing posters! But never have I been so depressed by the antics of some from within the movement.

It’s not just the puerile and distasteful tone of what has been exposed, or rumoured, or made up, but the absolute lack of both political and normal intelligence. Especially from an advisor who was extremely highly paid!

Everybody gossips. All organisations have rumours floating around, some true, some malicious. Many can be guilty at times of gloating at opponents’ failures or embarrassments. Even of plotting their downfall. But you’ve got to be particularly stupid to write your plans down and send them into cyberspace. And on a Government address?

Can these people not see how normal, decent folk are totally turned off by nasty, vicious tactics employed by any party? I have little time for Derek Draper, and think he has done the party untold damage since his return, with his pointless rows with Iain Dale and Guido, and his ill-tempered appearances on TV and radio, but there were some vile things posted on blogs about his wife. Why attack her? Why attack personality at all? There’s plenty of attacking to be done on policy issues, or lack of. On past and present record. On political philosophy. I think there’s plenty of boasting about Labour achievement to be done, although I know that many on here will disagree.

Someone needs to get a grip on the party very soon, particularly with regard to communicating with “the man and woman in the street”. I doubt how much influence the “blogosphere” has as yet, much as certain Tory bloggers like to feel they lead all debate in the country, except when it manages to get stories into the mainstream, as at present. But it’s growing! There can be very few people who haven’t seen Iain Dale or Paul Staines on TV over the last couple of days.
Although, I still don’t quite get why it is that Guido is being hailed as a hero for making smears against various Tory politicians available for publication. After all, many would talk of smoke, fire, sticky mud. Surely, if Red Rag was ready to go, the story would have been so much more damaging if he had just waited for the smears to appear on there?

In the end, most people won’t care about this particular issue, but will add it to their negative views of Labour and politics on general. At the next election, Tories will vote because they are desperate for power after a long spell in opposition.

The danger for Labour is not that folk like me will vote for another party. It is that we will not vote at all.

Sorry it’s long! Happy Easter.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the whole sordid debacle.

I wonder how many more angry citizens are going to start their own blogs and begin telling you what THEY think instead of the other way around?

60 million of us, 646 of you.

If Paul Staines can do it (and do it for free), we all can. You ain’t seen nothing yet.

There comes a point in situations like this where men of principle need to ask themselves where their true loyalties lie – is it to their party or their country? We may be reaching that point now, where there are sufficient honest men & women in the ranks of the PLP who may just think that their country should come first, and that actually an election would be no bad thing. This may also actually be in the longer term interests of the Labour party, as another year of this kind of stuff may consign it to the political dustbin of history. So let’s have that confidence vote now……

I think the reason this story has had such a resounding impact (apart from the legal aspects of taxpayer-funded Civil Servant breaking the Civil Servant’s Code and of using No 10 apparatus to send these emails) is the feeling that many have (and I speak as someone who voted Labour in 92, 97 and 2001) that this Government is not only out of touch and incompetent, but corrupt and morally bankrupt to the very core. Draper, in this sense, is the very personification of what many now feel is wrong with the Labour Party – lying, deceitful, lacking in honour and integrity. As such, to see him and McBride come unstuck seems like nothing more than karma.

However, it is refreshing (sadly!) to hear a Labour MP tell it as it is.

We’ve had our disagreements before, Tom (usually smoking Ban related!) but this post only confirms what I have long thought, despite our differences…. That you’re a sound, normal chap with his head screwed on and his heart in the right place.

Like others though, bearing this in mind, I find it confusing how you can bear to have anything to do with the vile disgusting administration that now govern us.

[...] blogger thing which is terribly dull here’s a bit of a round up. It’s great to see Tom Harris talking a lot of sense: “We screwed up, big time. We have no-one — absolutely no-one at all [...]

Excellent point made over on Order-order.

“Even the mafia don’t go after each other’s wives”.

John at 1148:
I won’t comment on the whole sordid, disgusting, tawdry business of the odious McBride and the equally appalling Draper – as Tom has said it all. With regards to your ‘confusion’ about Tom, I will say this. You are making the mistake of seeing him purely as a party political animal when it’s increasingly clear to me (and I hope it doesn’t strain our friendship for my saying this, Tom!) that he is instead a strongly principled conviction politician who is unafraid to speak honestly when his convictions run counter to those which his party either like to hold the line on, or which are popularly regarded as ‘New Labour. I’ve dealt closely with countless ministers and politicians over the last 14 years as a national journalist and Tom is different precisely because of this quality. And it IS a quality. Remember the ‘we’re all too miserable’ saga?…..teenage pregnancies?….it was this honesty that probably got him sacked. So add ‘courageous’ to that list too. Humility and a willingness to admit error are not characteristics Gordon Brown would recognise if they did a little dance in front of him. In today’s increasingly sleazy times, politicians like Tom are rare and the exception to the ‘rules’ which have been clearly, and very sadly, defined in the public eye by the likes of Jacqui Smith and Tony McNulty, with their shameful ‘what’s in it for me’ approach to allowances and expenses. Once again Tom – well said. Keep it up! Your departure from Government might have been painful at the time – but it has distanced you from the dog days of a deeply flawed administration which is now clearly unravelling in a welter of acrimony. No wonder the USA limits Presidents to two terms in office!

Tom!

A “conundrum” is what you use to practice “Safe Politics” with ;0)

And some one once told me that the little bit on the end was where you placed your foot when you wanted to ‘get it off’

I’m still not quite sure about that last bit.

But I would just like to thank all of the Labour Die Hards from ‘The Left’ for the comedy value of their posts – hilarious watching them variously trying to …blame the Tories, blame Dolly, blame the media, blame the weather, blame aliens, blame everyone in fact except themselves for allowing the New Labour Cuckoo to ditch every last truly ‘Labour’ policy from the nest, whilst they all sat there doing sweet F A about the demise of a once honest party that used to represent workers rather than Corrupt Bankers.

Only the insane or corrupt would consider voting for Labour now.

It all seems to suggest Brown’s sticky fingers are all over it, but even if he had no direct knowledge of these libellous emails the simple fact remains that they were created by a member of his staff. It is merely a reflection of the culture of the man and his office that McPoison would dream up such lies. I hope those involved sue the balls off him.

As to the whole picture it is time someone quoted Cromwell at the ghastly Brown: ‘You have sat here too long for any good you have been doing, go I say, let us have done with you, in the name of God go’.

“And the people behind this sordid little mess owe everyone named in these emails a very public apology”.

The trouble is that right at the centre of events is Gordon Brown. He has known McBride for many years and he employed him to perform this job. He is well known as a control freak, engaged in everything going on around him. He knew exactly what McBride and Draper were up to. That’s why he is in hiding. Sooner or later he will have to come out and lie to the public, claiming that he “knew nothing.” Yeah, right. In case you are not convinced that Gordon is encouraging the practice of the dark arts and want a little more proof, consider the fact that he has also recently brought Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson back into the fold. Lying, spinning and pouring poison is what these people do. Indeed it is almost all they do. They are Olympic gold medalists at it. It is also telling that Alistair Campbell calls McBride “McPoison” and the whole PLP calls Mandelson “The Prince of Darkness”. If that’s what their friends think…

It seems fair to say that LabourList is a completely failed venture. And also true that in the UK the right-wing side of politics is better represented than in the left.

But the problem LabourList tried to solve was a false one. There is no shortage of places for the current Labour government to present its policies. It controls all the levers of official communications and can get its spokespeople on the BBC at any time.

The problem here is the lack of a wide-ranging multiplexed blog in which different ideas and concerns from those on the progressive left can be worked out – an in opposition to government policy if necessary. Eight years ago the earliest “power blogs” in the US were largely right-wing – Drudge, Andrew Sullivan, and The Corner.

What emerged in opposition were DailyKos and The Huffington Post. These kinds of blogs are more or less what we need in Britain now.

What LabourList had rapidly become was a more sterile and tedious version of National Review’s The Corner combined, it now seems, with an aspiration to the politics of personal destruction practiced by Drudge.

Let LabourList die and let’s try to find a more interesting and open platform for left-wing politics online.

http://englisheclectic.blogspot.com/2009/04/nasty-blogs-story.html

Tom you are a decent proper labour politician and one of the few bloggers who gives the tories and libertarians a run; but really this has been an epic disaster for the party. Who in their right mind (to coin a phrase) would have thought Draper was the right person for a serious political party to use to promote their ideas?

The problem as everyone knows is at the very top and your man (who is a bad man surrounded by bad people) has to go. If you got shut of him yourselves you would get some credit from the electorate; but if this goes on contempt, indeed odium, will be your lot for a generation.

OK

Something happened over the weekend didn’t it?

Nice response Tom, shame about the aside about the conservatives wanting McBride to stay in place. I suspect many of them would be happier to see him roasted on a spit, evil little shyster that he is.

Be interesting to see where he surfaces next, back in the treasury at his old desk perhaps?

Labour are finsihed. Im really disgusted with this whole affair. Brown, Watson, McBride, Draper – all involved in MHO.
The buck stops at the top.

John Smith Sunday 12 April 2009 at 10:10
That said, I don’t think there’s much hay to be made by the Tories

Rosie B Sunday 12 April 2009 at 10:25 am
This weekend has been the very first time in 17 years in the Labour Party that I have been ashamed of my party and some of the vermin it chooses to employ.

wrinkled Sunday 12 April 2009 at 10:36
The only possible answer is to resign the whip and join the SNP, a party of true Socialist vision, with Scottish values and national pride,

Paul Sunday 12 April 2009 at 2:52 pm
Sure there’ll be a few whoch say that it’s a bit rich for someone like G Fawkes to come over all self-righteous about smears

@ John nope – just an entire Kansas worth of wheatfields. But the Tories don’t need to do anything. This hay just grows, cuts, and stores itself.

@ Rosie – 17 years without shame? You were asleep for all of it were you?

@ wrinkled – that’s irony, right?

@ Paul – that my friend sounds like a smear itself. Could you perchance ask these ‘few’ to post with any smears that have appeared on order-order.com.

Well said, in any case, Tom, it had to be said.

Perhaps they should have had you touring the studios instead of the embarrassing attack-chihuahua that is Stephen Pound. One of his doozies from last night was, ‘Alistair Campbell was just a press officer’.

And as a PS – Those who say we are watching the death of the Labour government are mistaken.

The government is already dead – we are merely watching (and smelling) its corpse rot.

Well said To,.
All political parties (not just Labour) need more people like you – who have some absolute standards.

“The government is already dead – we are merely watching (and smelling) its corpse rot.”

And our grandchilden will pay for Gordon Frankenstein currently trying to bring the rotting bloated corpse back to life.

Bury it. Cremate it. Salt the earth. EVERY Labour government leaves us bankrupt and in misery. It’s what they do.

There are 60,000,000 of us.

Vicious, disgusting, scurrilous, reprehensible, and completely devoid of moral character.

So, business as usual in the Labour Party then. I’m staggered that McBride even bothered to resign.

According to the released emails Charlie Whelan and Andrew Dodgshon were both copied in. I think we know who the next casualties will be…

A clear voice of reason. But what, what, were people like this doing so close to No. 10 in the first place? If a government does not have moral authority, then it has no authority.

It was right to sack McBride and perhaps Draper will now be dropped by the Labour party. Smears of our politicians are just out of order- blogs are an opportunity to debate issues and policies – not to engage in personal abuse.

Perhaps the blogosphere needs to be better self regulated – sites should not indulge in childish personal attacks – Draper and McBride have been found out, but will all blogs stop personal abuse? will inuendo and personal comments about GB stop? i read on right of centre blogs vile personal attacks on the PM. for example Guido Fawkes recently blogged ” The Prime Mentalist is an emotionally retarded weirdo.”
he tags any blogs to the Prime Minister as “Twat Watch”

This is as equally offensive as McBride and Draper.

Do you reckon blogs could desist from this sort of offensive nonesense?

I suspect that i will wait with baited breath for that sunny day when we debate policy and not the personal.

Err Tom.I haven’t come across anyone in the Party defending Draper over this- nor should we feel responsible for it.That’s simply playing into the Tory trick of “Brown must know” .I don’t believe Brown checks the e mails of every civil servant at number 10 nor should he.It was right McBride was fired and Draper should go too.I notice your new pal Iain Dale is praising you to high heaven.I suspect Dale wouldn’t have done his lightning tour of the media this morning had this happened while a Tory PM was in number 10.And half the pro Tory comments on this post would have been spinning for their lives.

I suppose you get marks for at least being consistent.

@Yozza

Kevin Maguire has come closest to a defence.

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/maguire/2009/04/spare-us-the-hypocrisy.html

Tom

Good post, but you should speak the more fundamental truth. This incident has Gordon Brown all over it. McBride was No 10 Strategy and Policy Adisor, hand picked by Brown, groomed from total obscurity in the treasury. Brown had 60 million to chose from and picked McBride

He also picked Wheelan, and futher back in Scotland as you will know Tom, Tommy Graham and John Rafferty. He always has employed a state fybded smearer – he’d be nowhere without out them

And for those praising Tom, remember Brown saxked him as Transport Minister under a year ago. But brought back Mandleson and Draper, and has Liam Byrne leading his defemce

Over to others – but Brown is unfit for office, any office

Message to Damian McBride and the remaining Labour Party spin-machine: Barack Obama, arguably the most respected politician on earth, said of himself: “Junkie. Pothead. That’s where I’d been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man. . . . I got high [to] push questions of who I was out of my mind.”

His admission of cocaine use – but not crack – won him more votes than it lost him. Would we have cared more if he’d taken crack, say, than we did about the difference between Clinton’s usage of pot and Obama’s use of cocaine, I don’t think so. More…

http://paulseaman.eu/2009/04/only-nlabour-thought-thered-be-mileage-in-gossipe/

This story nicely encapsulates everything that is wrong with NuLab. Draper and his ilk just didn’t get it. His Labourlist was a joke, the only comments he would initially allow were ‘approved thought’ ones. Everyone knows email is about as secure as a postcard, apart from this incompetant idiot.. The gut feeling we are left with is, that there are some very nasty people at the heart of Brown’s government.Whatever you think about Guido Fawkes, it is one outlet for the mass frustration and anger many of us feel. I must commend you Mr Harris for your honesty here, if only more of your colleagues would show some of the same independance of thought.

Very good post, and the only line that should have been taken by no.10 if they wished to maintain a veneer of credibility. The reaction of decent Labour activists and backbenchers to this has put their leadership to shame.

The trouble is, Tom, that in spite of your candid and therefore welcome comments, one only has to visit LabourList to read that Draper is still spinning sanctimonious, disingenuous bollocks in his own defence and that of McBride. His explanation is embarrassingly pathetic and undermines the sensible response by yourself and others in similar vein.

Well said Tom.

I’m frankly amazed that anyone in Labour thinks Derek Draper should continue. I’m sure the Tories would like him to stay but I think he’s _too_ odious.

To be honest, although he will damage the party more by staying, and that would make me happy, I just _cannot_ stand to see the irritating git on the TV any more. Please have a word in Gordon’s shell-like… Thanks!

The irony of Draper complaining about Guido hacking into his email (a serious accusation btw I wonder if he has any evidence?), in the very week the govt introduced legislation meaning it can read all of _our_ emails is just _too much_!

@ Demetrius “But what, what, were people like this doing so close to No. 10 in the first place?”

Well, they helped Gordon get the job in the first place and they were doing (until very recently) exactly what they’re supposed to; namely spinning the truth and crafting news stories.

The fact that they’ve decided to move from spin to outright lies shows the desperation that’s being felt inside the Number 10 bunker.

If I were David Cameron then I would call a vote of no confidence in the PM

And for the record, as a Conservative supporter I’d love Draper to carry on as editor of Labourlist.

The man’s a train wreck and has done more to further the Conservative cause over the past year than any ten Tory backbenchers you care to name…

@ Tom.

Why are you still linking to Labourlist if you think that Draper’s conduct was “inexcusable”?

Politicalbetting and a bunch of other sites have delinked him. I think you should follow suit.

Very well said, Tom, but how disgraceful that you should have had to say it in the first place.

I can’t remember a more discredited government and I wish that it would do the decent thing and just go.

I’ve decided that the reason that you’re still in the Labour Party is because you believe in the original principles of Labour and the commitment to welfare reform of the grassroots membership even if, just as in the making of stock, scum rises to the top.

And now, of course, comes the inevitable “Downfall” video.

Warning, some sweary words.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrBqrNhdGU -

Tom,

Having read your piece in the Guardian and your post here, one thing occurs to me……..you’re clearly far too honest an individual to be involved with the Labour Party. Let’s gloss over the times when you felt you had to support yet another reprehensible thing that your party did just to show unity.

Have you considered leaving the corpse that is Browns Labour Party and setting up a fresh (I hesitate to use the word ‘new’ for obvious reasons) left of centre political party?

I’m sure Bob Marshall Andrews would join you – but there really are precious few others in Labour that I would call ‘decent’, but a they say……from little acorns etc.

Some have likened Brown to Nixon. Perhaps not.. here is an alternative personage.

http://wrinkledweasel.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-brown-another-nixon-or-is-he-dorian.html

It’s nice to see a posting of some integrity and honesty without any excuses being made. Having seen attempted apologists for this exercise, then it’s refreshing to see.

However, I think the worry that I have most of all is not that this particular unpleasant episode is a one-off, but more that we in the general population now find it very difficult to believe anything that comes from official government sources (whatever party might happen to be in power).

The whole process of parliamentary lobby briefing is suspect. It seems that there is a cosy, incestuous relationship between journalists and politicians. This apparent swapping of journalistic and political adviser roles is corrosive of trust and media independence. The humbling of Greg Dyke and the behaviour of the BBC governors after the Kelly inquiry did nothing for that organisation’s independence. The fact that everything that Kelly alleged appears to have been true held no sway. The great machinery of party and government just steam-rollered anybody in its way. To my mind, a much more corrosive affair than this one.

So what we are left with now as any form of “independent” journalism is the blogosphere. Of course there was previous little sign of independence from Draper, but then if there is an attempt to “engineer” a nominally independent left wing blog, that’s what you’ll get. The libertarian wings is always going to go its own way – I can’t imagine what sort of government would satisfy them. There’s precious little readership in this country for real left wing politics, rather than the rather corporatist, institutionalised bureaucratic side which seems to be the natural line for much of what passes for the liberal consensus in this country.

I rather suspect that the real problems are due to the nature of people attracted into parliament. Far, far too many lawyers and increasing numbers of career politicians. The very nature of the legal profession is such that (for barristers at least), the aim is to marshal evidence for a position already established rather than genuinely analysing circumstances. From this, the manipulation of information and statistics follows naturally. What we are getting is, I feel, a consequence of this heavily distorted parliamentary body. In that respect it is profoundly unrepresentative.

Iain Dale in tomorrow’s Telegraph:

Transport Minister Tom Harris, who committed the cardinal sin of being a Blairite and an entertaining blogger, found himself dispatched to the back benches after being overheard at the Labour Party conference by McBride and his Downing Street acolyte Tom Watson saying something less than flattering about the Dear Leader.

Oh Tom, do tell!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/5145463/Damian-McBride-scandal-Fatal-flaws-of-the-PMs-pitbull.html

Tom I am impressed and fair play to you for not doing the same rubbish I’ve heard other Labour MP’s put out about this. I can’t remember the last time I said it but I’m impressed with a Labour MP.

There’s no doubt in my mind that these 2 low-life would have carried on with their “joke site” if Guido hadn’t blown it for them.

My personal feeling is that Brown was at least aware of this even if he didn’t sanction it.

At this rate there will only be a handful of Labour MP’s left come June 2010.

Weasel I understand your point, but the analogy I think is correct regardless of their underlying moral code. That is they are both partisans, who see everything and anything that is not them as the enemy.

Well said Tom. But what’s a nice man like you doing in Brown’s Labour Party? It’s not the place for decent people.

[...] from Labour’s rank-and-file is admirable.  Nobody’s trying to defend the indefensible, and Tom Harris and Labourhome have not tried to equivocate, prevaricate or generally defend the [...]

Is this true Tom (well obviously the ‘entertaining blogger’ bit is)?

From Iain Dale in the Telegraph:

Transport Minister Tom Harris, who committed the cardinal sin of being a Blairite and an entertaining blogger, found himself dispatched to the back benches after being overheard at the Labour Party conference by McBride and his Downing Street acolyte Tom Watson saying something less than flattering about the Dear Leader.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/5145463/Damian-McBride-scandal-Fatal-flaws-of-the-PMs-pitbull.html

Saying uncomplimentary things about the Dear Leader when his attack dogs were in earshot doesn’t seem like the best career move.

You should count yourself lucky you didn’t find yourself in a gulag in Siberia.

Tom, this love in between yourself and fans of Iain Dale is getting embarrassing. You’ve even allowed yourself to become part of the official Tory spin on this issue. The Tories don’t do ‘honest’ without wanting something in return. McBride has gone, Draper apologised on the news and will probably be shown the back door soon.Next you’ll be joining John “I demand an enquiry whatever the issue” O’Donnell in wanting an official enquiry into how on earth someone was allowed to e mail someone else without the Prime Minister knowing.

Yozza, have you ever heard of the offence off “misconduct in public office” ?, Yep that’s right, there is the law.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/misconduct_in_public_office/index.html

[...] post on the Damian McBride scandal appeared earlier, but it’s worth rounding off the afternoon with the words of Tom Harris, a [...]

Had the Government in general adopted your line, the general public reaction would have been “oh well, that was all a bit silly, but it’s water under the bridge now, let’s move on”. Instead, it looks like your party is lined up to receive another day’s worth of absolute kicking in the press tomorrow. Has any political party ever been forced to endure a worse Easter weekend? Guido’s timing of his story was an absolute master-stroke.

Why you are on the back-benches while Tom Watson is safely enshrined in his Downing Street communications role is beyond me. It is clear that in this case, an intelligent, honest and enthusiastic “amateur” (not to demean your previous PTE experience) such as yourself would have made a far better fist of the media handling than the so-called media professionals advising our Prime Minister.

“Yozza, have you ever heard of the offence off “misconduct in public office” ?, Yep that’s right, there is the law.”

Really?And this has what to do with Tom allowing himself to be played like a fiddle by Dale and his sock puppets?

@ Yozza – good post. I think Draper and McBride are a disgrace, but the Tory spin that it’s all ultimately Brown’s fault is demented. Brown is a person of genuine integrity and dedication, who is working flat out for this country. If they can’t or refuse to see that, then it says more about them than him.

I don’t think the right-whingers who hang around blogs such as Tom’s are in any way representative of the population at large. They are just frustrated and obsessive political anoraks with too much time on their hands.

In fact my friend’s husband is such a person – a life-long Tory bigot, he long ago realised that nobody in his immediate circle was interested in his misinformed rants. So since he retired, he has been practically glued to his computer where he has a captive audience for his particular brand of Tory tripe.

Tom

Frankly I agree with Yozza.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of McBride (and it’s mostly wrong) your symbiotic relationship with Iain Dale is extraordinary.

This is a guy who is thick as thieves with Guido Fawkes who regularly insults comrades in the most sickening way.

Of course it is perfectly appropriate to collaborate with members of other parties (’some of my best friends are Tories’) but Dale??

If people like Charles Clarke and yourself were half as vocal about the appalling abuse doled out from the fringe right as you are about this you’d have a lot more credibility.

And I don’t want to go on and on – but have you read your comments section? Does the fact that it’s mainly full of admiring Guido-supporting Tories not give you any pause for thought?

I just feel so very sad that a Labour Government should have come to this. I remember how I felt on May 7th 1997 and I just feel so sad.

If Gordon Brown had any integrity he would not have bought mandelson back into government, still less rewarded him with a peerage.

If Brown had any sense of decency he would have sacked Tony McNulty and Jacqui Smith from government.

If Brown had any authority left he would sack Draper or close down Labour List.

Red Rag by the way still exists as a domain. Only a ‘hello world’ message on it, it’s true, but it is, indeed, “ready to go”.

New Labour – a government of “all the talents”?. No: only right-wing ones, and some of them (e.g. Myners who signed off Goodwin’s RBS pension)not very talented at all.

Brown will no doubt hold a public enquiry “There can be no whitewash in Whitehall”

Goodbye

It was 25 years ago that high Tory Sir Frances Pym self destructed his own career, perahps knowingly, when he stated in the middle of an election campaign, that large parlimentary majorities were unhealthy for democracy. I think this latest sad tale is another illustration of his wise words. Surely this sort of tactic is a product of years of huge Labour majorities that destroyed accountability. The hand over and the drama surroudning the Blair Brown transition was conducted in the atmosphere of a one party state, with the country largely ignored and the parliament sidelined. McBride’s and Draper’s behaviour is a product of a system which needs reform. I hope for a hung parliament and an ending of the damaging Tory Labour duopoly. Its the system that produces the “dark arts”. It also produces lower ans lower cirizen participation in every elecrion which in itself is a vote or statement of sorts.
The sooner proportional representation is tried, the sooner it can be seen what alternatives there are to a system that whatever its pretensions, leads to autocratic and unaccountable backroom figures to operate like this.

Tom, while I can appreciate your outrage at the current revelations, (they are damaging of course), I find this post disingenuous at the least.

How do you think that Labour has behaved over the last 12 years? Do you think this is a new phenomenon? No, this has been the pattern of behaviour right from the start, smears, lies and spin. Dr Kelly, the Paddington rail crash survivors, even members of your own cabinet have been on the wrong end of the Blair/Campbell inspired dirt digging machine. We all knew, how come so many on the labour benches were so blissfully unaware?

Your outrage, and that of others such as Charles Clarke, is years too late. And the PM’s press release was laughable.

This whole stinking mess just confirms what I already knew. Derek Draper is just absolutely vile.

Please, please dont get rid of him, we need more whinging, lying performances from him on the BBC. Another episode closer to D Day for these fowl, corrupt morons!

Tom your post is honourable and decent. Unfortunately for you though you are the exception to the rule.

Yozza at 10.49 pm: “Next you’ll be joining John “I demand an enquiry whatever the issue” O’Donnell”

Getting our Johns mixed up are we, Kevin Yozza? (That IP address looks awful familiar, btw…)

@Nicky,

‘Brown is a person of genuine integrity and dedication, who is working flat out for this country’.

There’s not really much to be said to that. I fear you are beyond hope.

And unsurprisingly I agree with Tony, Yozza and Nicky – oops! the only Labour commentors Tom? On a LABOUR blog? – but then on a site that’s morphed into Maguire light, I’m not surprised.
.

Tony speaks for me loud and clear when he says:
“If people like Charles Clarke and yourself were half as vocal about the appalling abuse doled out from the fringe right as you are about this you’d have a lot more credibility” (“Guido Fawkes recently blogged ” The Prime Mentalist is an emotionally retarded weirdo.” he tags any blogs to the Prime Minister as “Twat Watch”)
and frankly, if I were GB’s wife I think I’d be ‘emotionally upset’ too at the sh$t posted there.
.
“And I don’t want to go on and on – but have you read your comments section? Does the fact that it’s mainly full of admiring Guido-supporting Tories not give you any pause for thought?” (Like your admiring friends Old Holborn and Obnoxious? Who I understand to be libertarians, but don’t want to know about Cameron’s ‘private past’ while happily laying into every gesture and word from GB whose life is an open book?)
.
Richard – “Vicious, disgusting, scurrilous, reprehensible, and completely devoid of moral character.” (Like Osborn suggesting that GB was autistic?)
.
Richard – “Even the mafia don’t go after each other’s wives”. (Rapunzel –“ but there were some vile things posted on blogs about his (Drapers) wife
.
Richard – “Why are you still linking to Labourlist if you think that Draper’s conduct was “inexcusable”? Politicalbetting and a bunch of other sites have delinked him. I think you should follow suit.” (Like hell! It’s filthy fatman fawkes who should be delinked from every Labour blog, and if that ever happened, it may go a little way to me regaining some respect back for Tom. But it won’t happen, and I don’t expect any favours even as a core Labourite, and certainly not above the cyber Tories here who keep Tom’s numbers going up)
.
Tell me Richard, was it you who posted a typical holier than thou toffy nosed comment to Sadie, and received a typical Sadie robust response? Such respect to her! Serves you right. HaHa.
That woman could set up a gossip blog with her insider connections, no problem – go on girl – do it! You and Chris Paul – a fierce. frightening, investigative combination that would have the Tories in a right spin. Time to fight back.

Yozza, You see in life there is this big important thing called TRUST.

Now to live in a CIVILIZED nation we need this, we need to be able to argue and disagree without the other side fearing us, and thats why this magic thing called TRUST is important.

Dale and Tom understand this, the disgraced Mcbride working as a public servant, for public money, in a public building did not. He and it seems the people around him would prefer a state of mistrust.

What would you prefer Yoz? and what actions and behavior of government would you think lead to it?

Tom,

You think Yozza is Kevin Maguire?

No, wrong Kevin

I have always liked Tam Dalyell – having once run through his estate..

Tam Dalyell, the ex-Labour MP and former Leader of the Commons, described Number 10 as a “viper’s nest” and criticised Mr Brown’s decision to employ Mr McBride

Mr Dalyell, respected on all sides of the House of Commons, said: “It looks to a great many members of the Labour Party that Downing Street has become a viper’s nest.

“The difficulty is, how do you employ a man like McBride in the first place? Do you think that Jim Callaghan would have given such a man the time of day? No.

“Or, for that matter, Harold Wilson? Or John Smith? Certainly not.”

Mr Dalyell added: “I am very upset on behalf of the Labour Party, and so are a great many other members of the party. If I was a Labour MP at the moment, I would be as sick as a parrot.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/5148175/Email-scandal-has-brought-shame-on-Labour-says-Alan-Johnson.html

It’s now being reported that the Government is rejecting calls for Brown to issue a personal apology.

Personally, I think that this is a grave error of judgment. Even if you accept that Brown has nothing to apologise for, were he to do so, rather than implicating him (which I imagine is what he fears)it would enhance his moral stature. I think that failure to apologise calls into question the moral compass of which he is so (inappropriately) proud.

Ani at 11.41 am: “And I don’t want to go on and on – but have you read your comments section? Does the fact that it’s mainly full of admiring Guido-supporting Tories not give you any pause for thought?” (Like your admiring friends Old Holborn and Obnoxious? Who I understand to be libertarians, but don’t want to know about Cameron’s ‘private past’ while happily laying into every gesture and word from GB whose life is an open book?”

Ani, I’m sorry you judge an article solely by the responses to it, and not by its content. Which part of my post did you disagree with?

Yes, Guido and all the others on the Right regularly attack GB personally. And we don’t because we’re better than that. Or at least we’re supposed to be.

And you honestly think that Guido can be compared on an equal basis with a highly-paid civil servant, one of the Prime Minister’s closest aides?

The response I wrote yesterday was one which, had it been the party’s line, would have helped draw a line under this mess an awful lot quicker. But oh, no – some cyberTories agreed with me, therefore I’m just doing the Tories’ dirty work for them!

Ani – there are no circumstances in which I would try to excuse this behaviour, and I’m absolutely convinced that the vast majority of Labour Party members agree with me.

But I think your description of me as “Maguire Lite” is misplaced. In fact, Maguire has come out with the line which I assume you would have preferred me to take.

Bottom line: as long as I’m writing what I believe to be right, I couldn’t possibly care less who out there, Labour or Tories, agrees with me.

Tom
Some of your detractors apparently believe that the prospect of a Conservative Government justifies ANY tactics.

Hmmmm, an interesting little can of worms Mssr. Fawkes has served for the massed ranks of journos & bloggers we have before us….

First off, there needs to be an inquiry. Stat. A good one, not by some labour or labour-friendly peer, or a Tory one for that matter, but some fairly neutral one. May I suggest a lib-dem one? No one really cares about them…

Draper needs to go, quickly. He said “Brilliant” to the notion of deliberately putting false rumours about an MP’s wife out there in the hopes of unbalancing her mental state for political capital. Government has no place for that sort of scum.

Brown needs to make a full, complete and public apology, not when he’s asked to by Parliament, not because he may be forced to by the CoSIPL, but because it’s the RIGHT THING TO DO!!!
His immediate underling was caught comitting an offence! Trying to knowingly slander the Leader of the Opposition! There are just some things you can’t do.
This isn’t some wee nyaff in the postal room. This is a Senior Advisor to the Prime Minister!! He (Draper) needs to be sacked. Not allowed to resign, but very publicly handed his P45, and be told to forget about any other involvement in Government. He should also be expelled from the Labour Party (I take it he’s a member)….
Watson and Whelan should also be seriously considering resigning. If I were Brown I’d already have sacked them.

Do me a favour Tom. When you find your backbone, and with it the backbone of a few score of your fellow MP’s, do be a good fellow and hold a vote of no confidence. Brown’s a dead duck; the stench coming from Downing Street is getting unbearable, and it’s coming up to summer….

It’s so much fun watching Ani desperately trying to reconcile the Labour Party that she clearly loves and supports with the Labour party that smears its opponents with filthy lies.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again; If Labour want to avoid electoral slaughter at the next election then they need to grow some cojones and get rid of Brown, closely followed by all of his deranged acolytes.

-=-=-

Personally, I’ve no love for the Labour party and I rejoice that Brown has now (apparently) ordered his followers to spin that he doesn’t need to apologise because he didn’t know what was being done in his name.

There was a time when the commercial world thought that it had something to learn from the political one about how to manage PR: no longer.

Though I’ve never considered voting Labour and never will (I saw Kinnock’s false energy and Blair’s transparency from their beginnings) I do have some hope for the sake of politics that you and some other Labour politicians (Jon Cruddus, Bob Marshal Andrews, Kate Hoey et al) that have some semblance of Westminster integrity will make a stand for what’s right to Mr Brown. He needs to be put in his place and read the ”Riot Act” before he sinks Labour into third place at the next general election.

@ Analogue Junkie “He [Brown] needs to be put in his place and read the ”Riot Act” before he sinks Labour into third place at the next general election.

-=-

I’ve heard that Gordon isn’t terribly good at taking criticism. Perhaps Tom can give us an example of someone criticising him and how well he took it…?

Oh, I should have noted in my post that of course Draper isn’t actually a paid advisor, so he wouldn’t get a P45.
Still, should be sacked, post haste.
I read on the Beeb that GB has sent a personal letter to those people victimised by the slander. A nice start, but a public apology in the House would be the next step, followed by the independent resignation from government of Watson….

Wrong and disgraceful as these e mails were, the Tory party hardly has a track record of decency and compassion.
That party clapped and cheered as the right wing thugs called for Nelson Mandela to be hanged and through the 80s their then leader backed Pinochet. Genocide is a bigger issue than a few unseemly e mails! What happened to The Monday Club by the way? Have they tucked it away until they get to power in their attempt to dupe the public that they are now cuddly and nice?
The Tory leader and many of his MPs support chasing wild animals to exhaustion before tearing them apart for kicks, signs of a very disturbed mindset of cruelty and sadism.
They paint themselves as cuddly but many of us wont buy that EVER.
Yes these e mails were totally wrong but the Tory hypocrisy is huge!

Richard. …”the Labour party that smears its opponents..”
But it wasn’t the Labour ‘party’ was it? What a pitiful exaggerated comment from an alleged experienced political know-it-all. Get a grip.
.

And predictably, there’ll be a tory story coming along the tracks any time now – there always is – but not until we’ve all been subject to yards and yards of faux tory outrage – yawn.
.

And as if by magic – Bingo! – your top tory boy blogger and that nads woman may even yet be swinging in the wind as apparently they’ve been up to a bit of smearing themselves – against Tom Watson. Tut tut.
.

It’s all on Chris Paul, and on Dale too, but only if you can catch it quick before he drowns it in lots of other posts.
Crikey, as Bozo would say – will it never end?
Keep smiling. ;0)

@ani

Speaks wonders about your amoral attitude, perhaps you could replace mcbride in your dear leaders inner circle.

If a conservative government did this what would your reaction be?
Faux outrage I expect as you obviouslly support and encourage vindictive, lying smears by governments.

@ani – “But it wasn’t the Labour ‘party’ was it? What a pitiful exaggerated comment from an alleged experienced political know-it-all. Get a grip.”

No Ani – you’re right. It was a civil servant paid by the tax payer to do the Labour Party’s dirty work. So that makes it ok then.

Yes, Iain “sanctimony” Dale has rather back tracked on his suggestion that Tom Watson knew.Of course now it’s already been used in the media and Watson’s name has been linked to the issue it’s very much job done for Dale and the Tories.

Thank you for highlighting part of my comment Richard.
My point is that any man (or woman) who cannot accept constructive criticism and not learn from past mistakes is doomed to perpetual failure.
Better that such voices do not have the ring of putsches or personal criticism but to render the fact that Gordon Brown will sink the party along with himself if he doesn’t listen to wise heads and for your party (not Gordon by himself) to regain the trust of the voter…..

I understand the mea culpa, Tom but I don’t think it’s necessary.

So much of the reaction to this story is dishonest and hypocritical. This story just reveals the nature of politics and society. It’s not pretty, but it’s the way it is.

http://blog.matthewcain.co.uk/damian-mcbride-reaction-dishonest-hypocritical/

And as to what Tom Watson knew (or didn’t know) I suspect that he’ll clear himself, if only because the smearmail wasn’t carbon-copied to him.

Having said that, he still has a lot of questions to answer about what he did know about the redrag blog and its contents.

Nicky
Monday 13 April 2009 at 1:12 am
Brown is a person of genuine integrity and dedication, who is working flat out for this country.
—————————————–

If there’s one thing better than comedy, it’s unintentional comedy. My whole household roared at that one, even the two-year-old (tho’ I think she was just laughing because the rest of use were).

Tom your reaction is admirable, and I would disagree with Matthew Cain.

But there are deeper questions raised. So the attack dog bit someone. Why is that surprising ? Isn’t the real issue the judgement of giving people like Damian McBride taxes raised from hard working people to do this sort of thing ?

You know where this is leading and it won’t be comfortable for you.

@Mathew Cain

How awful we must be and so ignorant, eh mr cain.

We get upset just because a civil servant is used (he’s employedby the taxpayer of course) by a government to spread lies. He resigns and a labour MP calls him honourable, obviously labour MPs get confused as they’re also called honourable.

The liar should have been fired not allowed to resign from his position (we’ve still to find out if he is still employed as a civil servant at another desk).

How stupid you must think us all to believe that honesty or morals have any place in government or society any more; we’re so old fashioned, not as wise and all knowing as your amoral self.

Morals, honesty no need for them in your sad, delusional, new labour world.

Well said Tom. I’ve read many times, but never commented. As is said above, you should put yourself forward for interview on this. I don’t support your party, but can’t help but wish there were a few more like you, and a few less like our PM. His reference to unsubstantiated claims, and his belief taht expressing regret equals an apology, may yet allow this story to run. And run.

@ Ani.

Saying it “ain’t so” doesn’t make it true.

This was the work of a Labour clique, a well connected cabal of Labour insiders with prominent links to both the Party and the Labour leadership.

They knew they were doing wrong and were loving it.

Keep trying and hoping Richard.

And actually I’ll accept no censure from pathetic idiots who read, quote and relish extracts from the fat fawkes blog. My standards are far higher than that, so look to yourselves – tory hypocrites.

Tom,

Can you think of an example of a Blairite who lost virtually every policy battle he fought with GB and whose bitterness now manifests itself in an unwise belief that the enemy of his enemy is his friend?

That’s right – Derek Scott is a prime example of how ludicrous and marginalized one can appear in these circumstances. His hatred of Gordon is manifest in his recent comments.

I respect anyone, from any side, who stands for election in the miserable race-to-the-bottom sh*t fight that characterises much of politics in the internet age.

But I do get worried when Labour figures in particular decry any fraternal duty towards colleagues and simply take any opportunity to stick the knife in.

And I get alarmed when they start gazing into the middle-distance and going on about being true to oneself – lining up beside some of the most malign forces in politics today and conveniently absolving themselves of any wider responsibility for the misery caused.

What does Lord Maxton think? What would he do?

Does anyone else think that Nadine Dorries is SUCH a poppet!

I’m sure she’ll go far! Home Secretary? Minister for Health? Education? I doubt Cameron will be able to ignore her many talents when/if he becomes PM.

I for one, shall be watching her career with interest.

“I have also written personally to all those who were subject to these unsubstantiated claims.”

Not lies, not slurs, not madeupfilthandscum…

“unsubstantiated claims”

Oh dear…I wondered why this story has dominated the news for three days. Now I know. He BELIEVES Damien McBride spoke the truth but can’t substantiate it. He ACTUALLY BELIEVES IT.

[...] Harris, with his press officer background, has a deft analysis of exactly how much of a f*ck up this was (my terminology, not his).  And blogs across the [...]

@ani

Your standards are higher than Guido Fawke’s you claim.

Perhaps you need to show so then rather than supporting people who lie and smear using the taxpayers money to do so.

Just because your dear leader and new labour are the villians of the piece, shouldn’t mean that you discard any semblance of morality or a belief that honesty is a must for society to prosper; rather than just something you do to fool Santa Claus to give you extra presents.

You know things aren’t going too well when Parmjit ‘Don’t Let Anyone Comment In My Quarterly Blogs’ Dhanda is bigging up your pronouncements on morality.
http://parmjit.wordpress.com/

Yes, it’s very courageous to join the stampede running pell mell away from Damien McBride’s dirty deeds. The idea that anyone might seriously entertain a hope of McBride surviving is rather fantastic, though. Put bets on Draper’s position, if you are inclined to flutter. As Perry said, he’d be enough of an election liability.

Gordon could never apologise, they said, yet he did. He didn’t even use the Blair dodge of ‘regrets’. This tightening of rules thing, though, looks like closing the stable door after the horse has been put down and carted off to the glue factory. The system works. Special advisors who do unbelievably stupid things get the sack when they’re caught. If anything needs doing, it’s to catch more of them, but there aren’t enough rightwing bloggers who like to refer to themselves in the third person for that…

I think the biggest apology should go to all those Labour activists who have been knocking on doors in preparation for the June 6 elections. Their hard work, their decency and honesty, is yet again undermined by the scum at the centre. Last year our efforts were thwarted by 10p tax, this year the emails. No wonder so few bother.

@Chris’ Wills 9.02 – I heard someone confirm on the Today programme that Damian McBride’s departure is from the Civil Service and not just No 10.

There is now talk that this episode will cost the Government the next election – so much for this being a ‘Westminster Village story’ as claimed by a previous poster!

Any opinion on the lack of apology from our beloved leader ? What exactly did he regret ?
Also, any thoughts on Watson (who seems to be in hiding at the moment) ? How about Draper or Whelan ?

Two slightly oblique things have struck me about the Draper/McBride/others-to-be-revealed story. The first is that a significant number of Labour supporters have condemned it and the second is the extent to which the Main Stream Media are so in thrall to Downing Street that, not only were most of them gagged for fear of being denied other stories, they actively campaigned to take the sting out of it. There are, in particular, some people at the Telegraph whose professional standards should be questioned, as Guido already has.

We have a weak opposition and we apparently have a weak press. They represent the standard behind which legitimate protest should be able to rally, but so far their showing has been woeful.

Are we seriously to believe that the only true voice of opposition to the Brown tyranny is from the ranks of Labour itself?

Triffid

Watson?

The Sun has a very clear idea..(So clear that they must have some evidence or Watson could sue?)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/columnists/fergus_shanahan/article2375497.ece

…(must we call it “Smeargate”? Really?)

Er yes you just have:

Yet what “smeargate” has shown is that…

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featuresopinon/display.var.2501773.0.Latest_scandal_must_not_deter_Labour_from_the_blogosphere.php

“A Labour MP universally respected, possessing a moral compass and integrity.”

Maybe an MP who is prepared to stand up for morals and decency in public life, and is prepared to put his/her moral outrage at the cancer eating his party from the top down before his/her own paychecks and expenses claims for the next 12 months, at which time most of his peers will be joining the dole queue in the great inevitable obliteration of Labour at the GE.

Marginal Seat optional (as a tempter?)

Is there a Labour MP out there with a burning pride in his/her party’s heritage, possessing unequivocal shame and revulsion at the current state of affairs in 10 Downing Street? Or, are you all praying for a miraculous silver bullet to turn the overwhelming opinion of Joe Public from one which collectively despises you all? Despises you to a degree where even the BNP are gaining support at your expense?

The Labour MPs have 3 very stark choices, all will hurt, but decide for yourselves which is the least painful for the good of Labour, and more importantly the country:

1) Sit idly by and collect your pay (and expenses/pension top-ups)for a year. Pretty much what is going on at present.(self interest – guaranteed oblivion)

2) Remove the aforementioned cancer with direct action from backbench MPs – as canvassed for above, if there is such a person. (Result: Gain a modicum of respect from the public and you may get back in within a generation).

3) One MP – with qualities as canvassed for above) crossing the floor in disgust to any other party – it doesn’t need to be the Tories. (Result: Gain a modicum of respect from the public and you may get back in within a generation).

I’m guessing Option 1 (the “heads in the sand” and “self-interest for a year” approach) would be the choice of many, as it is consistent with what they have been doing for 12 incredibly long years. However, surely there is someone of conviction and a good testicular disposition (apologies Harriet) in your midst, Mr Harris? Frank maybe?

Just to put my cards on the table, I am not a Labour, Tory or LibDem voter.

My wife and I are emigrating next year irrespective of who wins. Why? We look at the sub-standard education our kids are receiving – what my 16 year old is being taught these days is just plain laughable and insulting to her intelligence. We look at an NHS which has failed both our wider families in the worst way on too many occasions to mention. We don’t like paying the equivalent in council tax overseas (3 bin collections a week) to that part of our council tax here (5 times higher and 1 bin collection every 2 weeks) which is used to fund the gaping hole in their (local council’s) index-linked pension funds. Bearing in mind that at the same time in the private sector final salary schemes have been destroyed by Mr Brown. (Err..my wife would like to thank our great leader personally for killing hers off).

We now look at our Prime Minister’s right hand man dealing in sewer smut. Any Labour MP who believe Gordon had no knowledge of the tactics employed by his enforce should really make an appointment with Derek Draper for some psychotherapy (its potentially a win-win situation as I think Derek needs the work these days).

The former “Great” Britain that we knew and loved has been utterly destroyed both fiscally and socially by an incompetent Chancellor/PM who’s only strategy for re-election appears to be swelling the public and welfare sectors with potential voters reliant on the rest to pay their way.

There was a teacher on R5Live this morning justifying a 10% wage increase because…giving teachers more disposable income would help re-inflate the economy with their spending. And this person is responsible for teaching our children??? Probably the same idiot who gave Gordon his introduction to economics… Many years ago, if he had been forced to write 500 times on the blackboard in Economics class “Sustainability: I cannot have what the tax payer cannot afford to fund for the next generation” we wouldn’t have been in the dire mess we are in as a nation now.

You’re an OK bloke, Tom. Unfortunately, unless either yourself or someone with an ounce of courage doesn’t step forward and slay the dragon you and your fellow back benchers will only be viewed as impotent and spineless in the anals of poltical history…and time (for all of you) is short.

Whatever – the June election and party conference season will be a blast for those of us who are past giving a damn.

Kind Regards

Dave Balkwill

Smeargate is a good name and long may it stay.

I also like to describe McBride, Draper and Whelan as the “Axis of Smearvil”.

Smear deceit and divisiveness is what Labour is all about and has always been about

“Of course, McBride had to go — that was obvious to everyone with an ounce of judgment… But what on earth was Draper thinking when he told various media outlets yesterday that he didn’t think McBride should have had to resign?”

I rather think you’ve already answered your own question there, Tom, don’t you?

Oh sorry Tom, forgot to let you have Alex Salmond’s telephone number. The SNP is a broad church. Maybe you could sort out their transport policies.

0131 525 8900

I am happy offer my services as blind mediator if you like, and there is a nice oyster bar near Loch Fyne where discretion is assured.

It would appear Tom is not alone…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/14/labour-party-damian-mcbride

The root of the problem is that Labour put their party first and never the country. the path they will always choose is the one that they think will benifit the party even if it is of damage to the country or any individual.
They are openly interested in power for powers sake.
Every generation has to learn the hard way about Labour.
Most Tories would put their country before party, thats the big difference

@Silent Hunter unday 12 April 2009 at 10:09 am
//
Tom,

I think you’ll find that Derek Draper, to coin a Whelian phrase – Doesn’t DO apology!
//

He did apologise for lying when he didn’t mean to. Sounds like what a five year old might get up to. Given Brown’s viciousness, I’m surprised Draper isn’t in Baghram prison by now.

By the way Tom, what do you make of this comment on Labour in Scotland?

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/04/browns-thugs-at-work.html

have just discovered your blog this week-end, excellent stuff. I am not sure if you are aware it is also very educational, an aspect of some blogs which is often missed. I have supported Labour for over forty years but since Blair and Brown I have moved further and further away. I live in Scotland and if you wish to observe the real evil of Brown at work (and I mean it) you should investigate the going ons over many years here. Utterly corrupt and vicious in their practices it requires the exposure to the sunlight that you have achieved south of the border to bring Brown and Scottish Labour to book. Have a look at the fixing of selection meetings to favour Brown supported candidates. Constituency chairs will tell you how they have been bullied. Ask activists how they are marshaled when Brown’ fixers come calling, and ask failed candidates how they are smeared before selection meetings. All done by Brown’s thugs. Remember Scotland is Brown’s fiefdom, it will also assist in his downfall.

@Rapunzel

I really do think she’s a poppet. I don’t know what it is about a certain type of Tory woman.

This is what purports to be an apology.

”
I enclose a letter sent to Gus O’Donnell to revise rules for political advisers. The political adviser concerned has apologised unreservedly and left his post.

He sent these prank emails without the knowledge of anyone in Downing Street.

I understand the embarassment caused, and any activity such as this that affects the reputation of our politics is a matter of great regret to me. As you can see, I have taken action to do all I can to avoid this happening again.”

Gordon Brown’s letter to Nadine Dorries

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Smear-Emails-Gordon-Brown-Furious-With-Ex-Number-10-Aide-Damian-McBride-Over-Smeargate-Scandal/Article/200904215261310

Frankly if I has sent that, I would cringe…..

@chris’ wills

Oops – hit a nerve have I?
You one of the saddoes who relish reading and commenting to filthy fawkes then?
Huh – well, a shiver of excitement has to be enjoyed wherever one can obtain it I suppose, and whoa! those comments are so educational and enlightening, but if that’s your sad bag….Needless to say fat filthy fawkes and his acolytes have no place on my favourites list – once was enough eh?
.

But tell me this Mrs moral high ground. What precisely is your involvement in politics – what have you actually done/worked/offered/volunteered? – because I’ve gained the impression (not a strong one admittedly because I do tend to scroll past most of your tedious comments) of nothing very much, except endless complaining and moaning, though am I right in thinking you’re an expat – my least favourite type of poster?
Know what I mean? – all gab and no action.
.
I’m hoping you’re going to convince me, not that you have to, I hasten to add, that you’ve put in at least as many hours as I have, and are prepared to admit that sh$t happens at every level of politics, and frankly, I’ve encountered plenty of it, and not from Labour

@Andy
An apology for those canvassing for labour, I don’t think the dear leader even notices them.

As they have been canvassing for a corrupt party, shouldn’t they be apologising to those they’ve helped dupe?

I do hope all their canvassing activities come to naught.
Apologies to Tom, but I’ld be happy if every labour PPC lost their deposit at the next GE so I’m not much fussed about those who canvas in vain (been there, done that; admittedly not for labour).

Suggest you also read from another Labour MP Frank Field. He says what we all know. What a pity real men like Tom and Frank are on the back benches.

http://www.frankfield.com/blog/q/date/2009/04/14/darkness-at-the-heart-of-the-labour-party/

Why does this buffoon Brown believe that such assurances – even if it were possible to give them, will make the slightest difference to the behaviour of his henchmen? What kind of behaviour did Brown expect when he filled No. 10 with aggressive, thuggish, and unprincipled characters like McBride.
His only “regret” is that the whole nasty mess, inspired by Brown’s skewed personality, was ever found out.

Did anyone hear Harold Wilson’s old press officer talking about this on Radio 5 today? When asked if it resembled the Tories in ‘97′, he said no. It resembled, he said, the NIXON administration!!!!

This from a labour press officer. As I said, it may be high time to cross the floor……

@ Brett – Chorley
“It resembled, he said, the NIXON administration!!!!”

Come on now. Let’s be fair to Nixon. He was, at least elected to the role (twice). As far as I’m aware “Bottler” Brown has never been elected for anything other than his own safe seat.

Six impossible things Labour supporters have to believe before breakfast.

1. He new nothing about the emails.

2. Neither did he.

3. It was just an innocent exchange of emails between friends.

4. The ‘unsubstantiated claims’ were never going to be published.

4. It’s all Paul Staines, the NOTW’s, and everybody else’s fault.

5. The Tories are just as bad.

6. It hasn’t done for the jobs of another thirty Labour MPs.

Labour MPs are left staring into the abyss
Frank Field

Sorry, Frank, mate but not true. They were staring into the abyss, but then the abyss stared back, got disgusted at what it saw, and hightailed it out of town.

@madasafish – an alternative letter of apology:

I hope that you will accept my personal and sincere apology in the wake of recent events.

I deeply regret the distress that you have experienced and I hope that you will accept my assurance that such disreputable activity will never occur again.

———————————

Would that kind of apology have been better? How hard would it have been to write? If Gordon Brown is incapable of sincere apology or doesn’t feel the need, then does he have the stature of character, morality or judgment required to command respect?

ani
Oops – hit a nerve have I?
You one of the saddoes who relish reading and commenting to filthy fawkes then?
—————————————-

Hey chillax, Ani, sounds like someone’s hit your nerve with a piledriver.

Can you not see that Paul Staines has done the country a great service.

“You one of the saddoes who relish reading and commenting to filthy fawkes then?”

Guilty as charged.

Words have actually failed me.

http://tinyurl.com/dorriesletter

@Jim Baxter

I really do think she’s a poppet. I don’t know what it is about a certain type of Tory woman.

I …..

No! …….

Have you? …..

No. Words fail me. Even after thinking about a good reply since 3.47 pm.

Ahah! I have it.

Margaret Thatcher?

Teresa May?

Anne Widdicombe?

Really?

Poor you.

No. Words fail me.

@Sammy

“Can you not see that Paul Staines has done the country a great service.”

Who would ever have thought that such a question could have appeared, presumably in all seriousness, on this or any blog?

However, one can only hope that as his blog is now “out” across all the main stream media as a Tory supporting blog, deny is as he will, that newcomers to this odd little world will read it and the comments, and have their pre-conceptions of the Tories as the “Nasty” party, heartily confirmed.

Tom. I’m sorry that your Easter break has been spoiled by all this. Staines may be a deeply unpleasant character, but you can’t fault his timing.

Now. What about the Doctor Who special? I have it taped, still to watch. Will I enjoy?

@ani

Oh yes I’m an ex-pat, given the attacks on contractors by labour I had little choice if I wanted to retain some of my earnings.

You might try competing against all comers in an open market some time, see what value you can claim for yourself in the real world.

I suspect you work for either local/state governments or a quango.

As for being an activist, I was a while back in the old Glasgow Central, pre Tom even being an MP.
Being a contractor means moving around so also canvassed in Aberdeen, and Birmingham.
Getting old now so haven’t walked the streets for a while and just visit to pay my council tax and other bills.

Please note; I have always paid local taxes on the money I earn in that locality.

I do read Guido, why not?
I’ve also read labour list, not a crime (except in your world) to read a diversity of views.

Finally, I don’t have to claim a moral high ground; you dug a pit and jumped in so I just have to stay above sea level to decry what you write.

Rapunzel. Even on Conhome they are bored with nads, and concerned that this issue is being milked for all it’s worth. They want an end to it, asap.
Cameron will no doubt do his jutting red faced, finger stabbing faux fury at the next PMQ’s, to which GB will respond politely, (and the country will think ‘for God’s sake, hideous behavior that’s been acknowledged and apologised for, move on you shower of greedy boring self obsessed idiots’) but Conhomers want Cammers to concentrate on the country’s problems, and not embark on another futile type ‘Damiengreengate’ that they completely majored on, and which gained them no political advantage at all.
We’ve yet to see how that develops of course, but that incident, Bob Quick, Boris et al, no wonder I was reading somewhere that the police are rapidly cooling towards the tories…
.
I completely endorse your comments re sammy, and I have to say ‘chillax’ and ‘piledriver’ didn’t exactly make me ‘roar’ but raise an eyebrow ever so slightly, and just make kindly allowances for age and experience. There – aren’t I nice?
.

You are right too about about filthy fatty fawkes blog. The more the general public read it – fantastic! – the more they’ll be sickened at its content and association with the tories, and the light shines horribly down on folks like Richard and Chris’Wills our boringly regular expat commenter.
I do wonder what sort of sad lives some of these expats live, who leave our country for their personal financial advantage, and instead of spending all that spare cash on enjoying themselves and involving themselves joyfully in their new adopted country, it’s customs and politics, they are sadly compelled to haunt our papers and blogs, whining pathetically from the sidelines. Mind you, these types, invariably tory, are all over our blogs – best ignore them, their opinions are irrelevant – just loads of sad/lonely verbal diarrhea.

“You are right too about about filthy fatty fawkes blog. The more the general public read it – fantastic! – the more they’ll be sickened at its content and association with the tories,…”

You reckon? Guido has no association with the Tories. He just (quite rightly) despises all politicians, especially those in power.

See his campaigns against Tory MEP’s, Spellman, Conway etc for further “enlightenment”.

People read Guido because it is funny, his commentators are hilarious and he is not controlled by any party or filthy lucre. He does it for pure fun. The exact opposite of any politician in fact.

I still can’t think why anyone thinks it took courage to decry McBride. There have been two viewpoints expressed about this affair. Derek Draper’s, and everyone else’s. There’s a third possible viewpoint, that of people who still think it would have been a good idea if DMcB hadn’t got caught. They’re smart enough to keep their mouths shut, though, or pretend to be in the second group. And politicians are really good at pretending.

The tragedy of Damian is that he may really have believed that the opposition deserved what he had planned for them. That could have been down to projection, the psychological explanation, or it could have been a little more complicated. The film ‘Watchmen’ is probably the best realisation of an Alan Moore story to grace our screens yet, but constraints on length still led to the sacrifice of the ‘Tales Of The Black Freighter’ storyline. This features the macabre tale of a sailor who, after surviving the massacre of his shipmates by the ‘Black Freighter’, desperately tries to return to his hometown to warn them of the Freighter’s coming. In the end, it isn’t the dreaded ship his loved ones have to fear, but he himself, having sacrificed his humanity in persuance of his mission, and he realises that the Black Freighter was coming for him all along.

A cautionary tale, indeed.

Ani

I reckon that your response to this crisis is pretty much exactly what the Tories want to hear. Nothing could possibly damage the Labour party more than 1/ an underestimation of the damage that this causes and 2/ an attempt to slide it all on to some kind of Tory plot. It’s laughable.

Try to get your head around this. It’s just not about this incident. It’s not about a single demanded apology. It’s about a clear pattern of unacceptable behaviour, now starkly illuminated, over a long period of time.

Up here, in the Labour heartlands, this is not playing at all well……

Just spotted Derek Draper’s desk for sale on Ebay

@OH.
That fatman fawkes (such a disappointment to see him in the flesh on the telly eh? – that straining t-shirt, the incredibly neat hair, the surprisingly stuttering responses, when one reasonably expected something at least…sort of…dashing…cavalier…) ‘is funny, his commentators are hilarious’ Phew! I don’t think everyone would agree with you there, batman.
.

‘He does it for pure fun. The exact opposite of any politician in fact.’
Blimey. It’s to be hoped that even the most razzled of old politicians, even the discredited ones, don’t do it for ‘fun’ – though on second thoughts – cough…
.

As for ‘attacks’ on tories…hasn’t there been some… hesitation… there? No?
Rather think there may have been times when the excellent Chris Paul – who takes a forensic interest in ‘Mr. Guf’ and his ankle adornments may have occasionally thought a gentle nudge was in order? (order)
Ah! Perhaps it was Dale then – defending his friends?
.

Btw. Didn’t I read a rather bragging comment from you on Labourlist regarding the Dale/Thatcher/golliwog furore stating that you were unashamedly and proud to be *******? You fill in the gaps.
Tories and hypocrisy…..Sigh.

@Ani – why are your comments on Guido Fawkes so personal and downright nasty ? Are you Damian McBride in disguise ? Or can you really not come up with anything better to say ?

Tom

You have correctly summed this whole thing up – it is inexcusable.

I am a Labour member who believes that the PM should have apologised. I can accept that he did not know anything of these emails. But, he is a leader, and as such it is his responsibility to establish and instill in people a doctrine whereby they have an (instinctive?) knowledge of what is and what is not acceptable.

It’s all just desperately disappointing, I thought we were going to take the fight to these people on issues?

What about we get John Cruddas, Alan Milburn, Frank Field and yourself into the government to fight the next election?

Rapunzel.
Can I draw to your attention the excellent and hilarious post by Chris Paul titled
‘Private letter from GB – sound as a pound’
with a picture of a very disappointed and pouting nads holding the GB apology – but by God she’s not having any of it!
And to add insult to injury – GB’s handwriting has been analysed (natch! Bit of a challenge there to Cammers) and not found wanting. Double dissatisfaction or what?
I highly recommend Chris Paul – put him on your favourites, you’re guaranteed not to be disappointed – like poor sad nads.

@Simon.
Think I’ve said plenty, and not all about your hero.
But sorry? Isn’t Fawkes fat then?
Doesn’t he have neat hair?
Wasn’t his performance on TV rather pathetic and disappointing?
Just saying it how it is.
What I think.
My opinion, admittedly for what it’s worth.
Doesn’t everyone here?
Remind me – are you Simon the foxhunter?

@rapunzel,

I have confessed my idee fixe for Theresa May on here bfore. I did once have quite a dream about MT and me. It was all very respectable as far as the linen went, I should say.

Anne W? I’ll need to, er, mature a bit first.

Justine Greening is one to watch. Out of my league though (like the others aren’t). I’d say a man can dream but after what we’ve learned about the Home Secretary’s husband I’ll not bother.

@Ani – not a fox-hunter, just someone who understands the issues involved in controlling the fox population.

@Ani.

Hi! I found Chris Paul’s article about Nadine this morning. Times Online has the story.

So, you receive a letter tagged “private,” show it on the telly, allow it to be published in a daily, send it off to a handwriting expert, then allow another daily to print the results. There’s clever! Her idea, would you say? Or one of her friends.

Strangely though, no mention on her blog, although there have been many, many, many posts on there this week about numerous media appearances and how she’s going to sue and how regret isn’t apology etc etc etc.

Methinks the expert’s findings were a tad disappointing.

@ Jim Baxter

I forgot about your feelings for the fashionably shod Teresa.
Do you think A.W. would fancy you? Plenty of women like younger men.
One of the upmarket mags did an article some months ago about several Conservative PPC’s. If/when they win, there are some good looking lasses in the bunch. So much to look forward to!

@Rapunzel,

My fear is that I would be beneath AW.

I must check up on Dave’s Dolls now that you have awakened my desires.

[...] him to just bite the bullet and say sorry. From the grassroots and back benches of his own party, too (yes, those are four separate links to four separate Labour blogs). And Guido’s not laying [...]

[...] Labour should consider doing the same and Tom Harris MP seems to be the obvious candidate. His rapid denunciation of McBride and Draper’s activities highlights he has the moral compass to drive Labour’s online [...]

@Ani

I wish people did not feel so free to attack people, including Paul Staines, for being fat. If he is fat, I am heffalump. I really don’t eat a lot, and am desperate to lose weight.

But you know, in my case, the anti-HIV meds play a big role in keeping me heavy. You really don’t know why anyone else looks like they do. And it is not grounds for political attack.

http://englisheclectic.blogspot.com

@Ani – BTW. The mother of my three children is my hero. No-one else.

@ani
….Mind you, these types, invariably tory, are all over our blogs – best ignore them, their opinions are irrelevant – just loads of sad/lonely verbal diarrhea.

So that is a considered a reasonable response in your world?

Insult and smear those that don’t agree with you.

The dear leader’s fourth reserve attack chihuhua strikes again )

@Paul Halsall.
I apologise unreservedly to you or anyone else reading my comments here who thought I was criticising overweight people in general.
I had absolutely no intention to offend anyone whose weight problems are related to their poor health, and I’m also aware that mental health medication has the same – in some cases – really disastrous effect.
.

In the case of Staines, yes, I was being harsh, and why not? It’s not like personal and crude remarks are an anathema to him or his audience is it? And its common knowledge, from what I’ve read on various blogs, that he’s a serious drinker, which has brought him into conflict with the law on more than one occasion. The consequence of his drinking appears to have resulted in a ‘beer belly’ which was very evident, judging by the tight t-shirt when he was on TV recently.
.
He may be admired by some for his blogging skills, but dress sense, and how to disguise that unfortunate shape is sadly lacking.
And please – don’t think for one minute that I’ve any sympathy, or that I’m about to apologise to the likes of him for my remarks after some of the hideous rubbish that emanates from his blog!
But to you – I do.

@Jim Baxter

“My fear is that I would be beneath AW.”

There’s a thought!

@ani

Thanks for a graceful apology. [I Don't like Staines any more than you do.]

“Insult and smear those that don’t agree with you.”
Insulted and smeared?
I would have thought that any comment from me was pretty innocuous compared to what you enjoy over at the stainsies blog (damn! I’m having to be reasonably polite now Paul – Aaargh!)
.

“The dear leader’s fourth reserve attack chihuhua strikes again )”
Ah! No need to big me up Chris, though it has been said that I can be as cute, sweet and harmless as a dinky little puppy. ;0)
Until I’m seriously bored – like now – with you.

An interesting article on Labourlist by Ed Mayne in relation to smearing, and a reminder that only last June the tories produced a 32 page glossy brochure full of smearing/lying stories against the PM which were sanctioned by Cameron himself.
I’ve posted the urls though I’m certain you can find LL without any help from me.
.

http://www.labourlist.org/ed_mayne_in_place_of_smear
.

http://tinyurl.com/cxrtnq

@Paul Halsall

One doesn’t have to be ‘PC’ to think it in poor taste to make comments about other peoples’ personal appearances, but Ani doesn’t appear to have a problem with that. When I first heard about the Guido Fawkes blog, I was much taken with the idea of it, but when I first visited it, the personal jibes and apparent vindictiveness expressed by the author and in comments put me off continuing to go there. I have the right to choose not to, without telling other what they should do, or calling for the blog site to be censored.

It should be obvious, though, that higher standards are practised, and expected from contributors, on this blog. That’s the crucial difference which seems to elude Ani.

And beer belly or not, you can’t fault Staines for the ‘tache and goatee. Well, you can, but that’s another story…

Re your last comment, Ani, were these unattributed ’smearing/lying stories’, intended for publication on a website the Labour leadership could claim wasn’t connected to them? Or were they very different?

@Joe – they were different because they were true. They were stories about GB’s behaviour towards his staff, his hatred of Nokia mobiles etc.

That wouldn’t surprise me. I could tell a tale of my own MP bullying me, in his surgery, no less.

Madasafish, and a few others, got to post on his blog entry about the emails (I suspected it would be hard to refuse them), bu my own post still awaits moderation, as ever. Maybe it’ll just turn up, any time now…

‘Of course it goes beyond ‘party politics’. It goes to the heart of government. This is a man working for the office of the Prime Minister, a close associate and personal friend of Gordon Brown. If he heard the equivalent of ‘Who will rid me of these troublesome Tories?’, that still calls into question the judgement of a person who keeps drunken knights around, and then makes such remarks in front of them.

‘And the Gloucester Constituency Labour Party has it’s share of people who should go back to campus. Cry ‘Cotswold Cavalry Dumping Giant Incinerators on Privatised Royal Mail’ for Gordon, England and St Jude!’

Gordon Brown, PM: “I take full responsibility for what happened. That’s why the person who was responsible went.”

Parmjit Dhanda, MP: “Well, that’s cleared that up, hasn’t it?!”

@ani
Until I’m seriously bored – like now – with you.

There’s a ’seriously bored’ state?
How does it differ from just being bored?

Feel free to go and insult someone else then; I’m sure you’ll find someone else who’s choices and morals offend you.

Now that your dear leader is reported as actually uttering the dread word (sorry is the word, in case it wasn’t clear to you what word I was referring to) you might re-consider your defence of him not saying it?

No, I thought not.
Rabid response force members just parrot the message of the day.

JoeK. “poor taste to make comments about other peoples’ personal appearances, but Ani doesn’t appear to have a problem with that”
When it comes to old stainsie – no I don’t. Shocking eh? But continue to feel free to be holier than thou and criticise me for the few posts yesterday where I called him fat (which he is) – and remind me how many years has he been handing out degrading abuse/captions/comments to others.
But, as one of his devotees, OH, had already said, “He does it for pure fun”
And so did I!
I slapped back for couple of hours – get over it – I assure you, I have.
.

“without telling other what they should do, or calling for the blog site to be censored”
I do hope all those commentators here who’ve called for the delinking, removing and abolition of LL since it began will take note! Compared to old stainsies it’s a paragon of virtue.
.

“you can’t fault Staines for the ‘tache and goatee.”
Well hardly, as he sports neither. It’s just a disappointing facade – remember?
.

Paul Halsall was understanding and kind enough to accept my apology, which is all that matters to me. So anything you say just pales into complete insignificance against that.

Simon. “they were different because they were true”
Really? I was unable to read that 32 page glossy. Were all the stories attributed then?
I suppose they must have been if Cameron endorsed it….