And another thing…

In the light of all of the news stories about the Tories “returning” their country estate expenses, this shows the Tories in another light.

If they abolish the NMW then their parliamentary expense bills will be that much lower, right?

I’ve heard a lot of spin from all parties, so I’m usually very sceptical when a Labour MP says the Conservatives “haven’t changed” and that only Labour offer “real help”.

This bill has served as something of a wake-up call to me. I thought Compassionate Conservatism was REAL. I thought there might be a shred of substance behind Cameron’s style. Eurgh. I’m no longer a fan of Labour but these days it’s a rock and a hard place. Given a couple terms out of office, I trust the Labour party will be able to restore itself. It seems to need a bit of a shake up lately.

And as a side note, you’ll be pleased to hear that “theBNParetwats” is the fifth most popular topic on Twitter at the moment.

Hooray for Twitter!

So you prefer the poor to remain on benefits rather than get a job?

The proposal is to remove the taxation that comes with the min wage (which takes it down to around £4.83). Basically you’re supporting the taxation of the poorest in society. Another 10p tax moment?

I note that Labour have decided to put the min wage up right in the middle of a recession – that should put a few more on the dole and encourage inflation busting wage demands.

However I have a great idea- Gordons great new idea is that Police should escort people home from the cash machine. Lets employ an army of people to carry this vital job out. We may even persuade Barbara Follett to use the service.

Thanks for the support Tom! I’ll be at the rally too!

The membership of my local Conservative Association is largely the same people who were Tories during the Major/Thatcher years.

They were a nasty lot then, when they were “winning”, and no thought of a minimum wage. I’m sure if they thought they could win an election now by abolishing it they would be aboard the bandwagon before you could say “clean the moat, there’s a good chap”.

BTW, us up here in Scotialand should never forget that the SNP didn’t support the NMW either. The Nats are always painting themselves as some sort of “left” party but it’s astonishing how many Tory policies they support and even enact.

It would be interesting to know how many of these gardeners, cleaners, moat scrapers etc. were paid less than the minimum wage. Quite a few I bet. No piece of legislation that comes out of Parliament before a general election is going to have any credibility anyway so why bother turning up to vote?

There might be a bit of fun to be had seeing who votes for what on things like attempting to re-inflate the property bubble or youth training subsidies for chandelier manufacturers.

Last summer I was looking for a job (part time only) and couldn’t get one anywhere. I would have worked for less than the minimum wage.

Why shouldn’t I be allowed to?

none, Simon, you buffoon. With expenses built in they could easily afford to pay more than the minimum wage.

2.2m unemployed and Labour’s great idea is to make companies pay employees MORE?

The NMW is fine in good times, but when times are hard it makes no sense to make it more difficult for companies to offer employment.

Interesting. Very interesting.

You will recall today also, no doubt, that unemployment grew by a further 1/4 million? In one quarter.

But that’s OK because YOU have a job so you can pontificate until the cow’s come home about how high the NMW should be. Wonderful.

I, on the other hand, run a multi-national business with operations in 6 countries and four continents. In my job, I get to see jobs migrate across borders. In other words, I get to see real, hard evidence of the effects of your policies on peoples lives.

I remember two episodes of employment taxation and MW implemetations in the UK over the past 10 years that have lead directly to UK workers losing their jobs. Your policy. Their jobs.

So feel free to keep pontificating, but tell me – EXACTLY how high does unemployment have to go before you realise that it’s all been a terrible, terrible mistake? 3 million? 4 million?

Perhaps 4 million and one????

Tom. What is the point of a minimum wage if there are no jobs. It just interfearing in the free market that has done the damage, if you had left the banking rule alone we would not have the present mess. get off the backs of the people and leave us alone to sort YOUR mess out.

So can I assume that the consensus among Tory-leaning readers is against the minimum wage and for Christopher Chope’s bill? Refreshingly honest, folks, but David will not approve.

Well, I’m not a Tory leaning reader, or wasn’t, although that may well be changing.

However, I do live in the real world where the impact of fine sounding, high-minded policies are often very different indeed from those that were intended.

If people don’t tell MP’s this, how do they know??

If the NMW clearly puts people out of work (and believe me, it does) then what exactly is the point of slavishly following it? BTW, the same is true of rules on part-time working, home working and NI increases. All well intentioned. All lethal to employment.

In the end, most people would rather have a job. I’m not advocating exploitation. I am advocating a stong dose of reality. Global reality.

The NLP has visited catastrophy upon us. The very high price that will have to be paid (whatever you choose to say) will include a move back from some of the NLP’s flagship legislation. It’s not as though we have any choice.

Excellent news, from a small business perspective, anything that reduces costs is good and will result in an increase in employment as it becomes cheaper to employ people.

Not that we would expect anyone in the public sector to understand small business costs.

You always resort to such snideness, Tom, as an alternative to an honest answer.

This is about more than what Torybots might think. Good wages are better than bad wages, but bad wages are better than none.

By pegging the NMW at a rate well above what the market would offer, the government made it an unpopular wage, and the dole queue grew, while jobs, as has been said, went out of the country or into the black market economy.

‘If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns’. Substitute ‘low paid jobs’ for ‘guns’. Outlaws don’t pay taxes, though.

The only thing that strikes me as odd is that the minimum wage is set so low. We need a minimum wage. I write as someone who despises command economies in general and employment regulation in particular.

Low wages exploit workers, Full Stop. If an employer cannot afford to pay their workers £5.73 should not be in business. Employers who won’t pay, because they are unscrupulous gits should be hung from the flagpoles, right next to the expenses fraudsters. If the problem is that the Chinese can knock out widgets for a quid less than we can, then so be it. We are a Western Economy with Western values and we should adapt upwards, not downwards simply to give tacit support to the exploitation of workers in other parts of the world.

If you want to lift people out of the benefits trap, abolishing the minimum wage is not the way to go.

If you want a nation of people with self-respect and dignity, abolishing the minimum wage is not the way to go.

If you want a poor, hardworking underclass who work and live at subsistence level, making it possible for people like me to have gardeners and daily help, then abolishing the the MW certainly is the way to go.

Low wages are a badge of shame. They shame the nation and shame the people who accept them.

And I know Mr Chope of old, when we both lived in Putney when he was leader of Wandsworth BC. He is a serial cutter. Though not exactly Mr Popular, he did manage to curb the frightful excesses of the previous Labour administration, and his reforms have held to the extent that Wandsworth still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest council tax in the country. In 1978, he cut useless, made-up Labour jobs at the council by 700 and cancelled another planned 1000.

But on this one, he is wrong.

(nb. He may sound like one, but Wrinkled Weasel in not a Marxist. Anyone who calls him a Marxist, will get a letter from Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Runne)

Typical bloody Marxist…

“If the problem is that the Chinese can knock out widgets for a quid less than we can, then so be it”

If only it was just a quid, WW.

If only it was just the Chinese.

Andy, what you pay your moat dredging sub contractor does not always reflect what he pays his subbies or employees. I met a bricklayer the other day who had five sub contractors in the chain above him, all taking a cut, he was getting peanuts for actually doing the work. Look at the railway sub contractors if you want to see an industry really taking the mick.

I don’t much fancy going back to the days when people had to work every hour of every day for about £1 per hour just to survive. Typical useless Tories.

The minimum wage is one of few achievements that New Labour can be proud of. It all started so well for you lot. Where DID it all go so wrong?

“So can I assume that the consensus among Tory-leaning readers is against the minimum wage and for Christopher Chope’s bill?”

No.

The NMW is a great idea.

But if it’s so wonderful logic says it should be £100 per hour.

then the unemployed can sit and watch the sole worker working hard so his taxes can pay their benefits.

Any Government raising the NMW at present can only be described as moronic.

I’m with wrinkled weasel and some of the more recent commentors. The Minimum Wage is fine because it’s not at the level of a wage floor. Human dignity matters. Try living on £800 per month, before tax, and then tell me that it’s too high. Not all of us froth at the mouth on this issue, Tom.

That said, raising the minimum wage now would be a travesty. Most of the private sector has had wage freezes (myself included), all we get told is that “we’re lucky to have jobs at the moment”. Given the Government’s decreased tax take at present, how are we supposed to pay for an increase in the minimum wage right now? It’ll only result in jobs being lost. Link the national minimum wage to the Government’s official inflation measure (so that Gordon can’t do the CPI/RPI/RPIX fiddle again) and be done with it.

Must Admit haven’t heard Dave Cameron condemn them or threaten to withdraw the conservative party whip from them either.

“That’s right, the Bill would give workers the right to “opt out” of the minimum wage. In other words, the Bill would abolish the minimum wage, and make it voluntary.”

Eh? How does that follow? No employer will be able to make someone opt-out, but if someone wants to work for less for whatever reason (e.g. their employer would otherwise need to fire them during a recession to cut costs if they continuted to demand the minimum wage) then why not let them opt out?

Andy@ 7.18 Wed

Surely if everyone else is having a wage cut or freeze, this is exactly the right time to increase the NMW, thus increasing its value long-term and injecting much needed spending into the economy?

At first I was almost viscerally against this.

But now I’m not so sure.

If the minimum wage is (somehow) to be made truly voluntary, and the competition for employees is therefore to be based on reward offered, would that necessarily be so bad?

Maybe employers would start chasing salary levels downhill. But then they’d never get decent employees and lose out to those paying more.

The advantage, on the other hand, would be the provision of employment for those perfectly willing to work for less.

The car companies are asking their employees to do very much the same thing at the moment. Take a cut or we have to lay off. Most employees seem to accept that argument.

There would need to be safeguards. And that’s the tricky bit.I haven’t the faintest idea how the mechanics of it would work.

But I don’t think it should be condemned out of hand.

Tom, this really is ridiculous! So ALL Tories now thing this? HAve you lost it? It’s a tiny minority that haven’t accepted the minimum wage, you know it is! Stop lying!

If 12 Tories back this bill, that hardly makes an overwhelming majority of the Conservative Party. If 12 Labour MP’s still support Clause 4, does that mean that Labour is committed to Marxism?

LFAT
“Eh? How does that follow? No employer will be able to make someone opt-out, but if someone wants to work for less for whatever reason (e.g. their employer would otherwise need to fire them during a recession to cut costs if they continuted to demand the minimum wage) then why not let them opt out?”

OK, here’s how the conversation would go:

Employer: Listen, I need to cut costs. You’ll need to take a wage cut to £4 an hour.
Employee: I don’t want to.
Employer: OK. Then I’m afraid you’re being made redundant.

It doesn’t need to be a small business with it’s back against the wall, it could be Asda or Sainsbury’s et al that do this, knowing that they can easily undercut their current employees.

Tories should also know that this will mean Eastern Europeans taking British jobs, as many British know they have the safety net of the welfare system to fall back on, and as such are less inclined to get pushed around by their employers.

This policy is yet another example of Tories putting employers before employees. Next it will be abolishing bank holiday entitlement, or ‘voluntarily’ giving up holiday or maternity leave.

Aside from the straight left/right political debate, there is a serious issue of certain exemptions being required which would not undermine the principle of the NMW Act.

I advise small technology/web based companies and both these examples are relevant to my clients.

First, interns. Clearly lots of young people work as unpaid interns in a wide range of industries (particularly politics!) in order to gain experience and to get something on their CVs. There are informal guidelines out there about hiring interns but no explicit exemption.

Second, owners (whether 100% or majority shareholders) and directors of small businesses – particularly in the tech sector where they are building up to being revenue positive, often do not take salaries (or pay themselves dividends) – sometimes they are taking loan repayments. Technically they are in breach of the NMW Act, but clearly the legislation was not brought in to protect this class of worker.

Both of these examples could and should be addressed.

Here we go again, another one of Tom Harris’s, ‘Time to feed the ducklings, they’re quacking’ posts.

National Minimum Wage. one of Labour’s proudest achievements.

Busting the economy and sticking 2.5 million on the dole – one of Labour’s not so proudest achievements.

Tories, boo hiss, the nasty party. They eat your young, you know.

Perhaps you could also explain, Tosh, in what way not supporting ‘membership of Europe’ is ‘extremism’. A gem that one.

Anyway, enough of the fiddle-faddle, the ducklings have had their crumbs, let’s get back to the topic de jour – e*p*n*e*.

Your always ripping into the LibDems, Nick Clegg has promised to repay to the Exchequer (ie us) any profit on his taxpayer-(ie us)funded London crash pad.

Will you be following his lead?

Or is he a better man than you?
I hear the the Truly Wonderful Telegraph (as it is to be hitherto known) is planning a Super Saturday Spectacular including the Milibands, the Balls, and one or two unmentioned as-yet Labour MPS.

I can’t wait.

Sammy – for the record, the vast majority of Tories do not eat their young.

That may not be true, Tom.

I’ve never seen chidren on the Tory benches.

@Sammy

“Perhaps you could also explain, Tosh, in what way not supporting ‘membership of Europe’ is ‘extremism’. A gem that one.”

I was going to comment on this, but decided I wouldn’t bother, but here I am anyway.

Call me old-fashioned, but isn’t allowing foreigners to make 70% of our laws “extremism”?!?!

I don’t think this should be treated as a party political issue. I really don’t. I think Brett is wound up about this for reasons that may not have a basis in fact.

First, Minimum Wage is a reality in most of Europe. All member states in the EU operate some kind of wage floor.

In terms of uptake, we are near the bottom in any meaningful comparison, which is a combination of percentage gross national earnings and purchasing power.

Whilst our MW is relatively high, uptake is low. It tends also to favour the young, women, and those in traditionally poorly paid sectors.

More importantly, it cannot be seen in isolation; it is one plank in an overall strategy to prevent poverty, others being healthcare, working family tax credits, lower rates of tax, and even, free school meals.

It is still the case that the majority of those on minimum wage fall into the category of relative poverty. And we are still only talking about less than 2% of the population.

If wages are allowed into freefall, the state, that is, the taxpayer, picks up the tab, because somehow, the resultant impoverishment of the poorly paid will have to be compensated for in higher rates of benefit.

What Brett is asking for, effectively, is for the taxpayer to subsidise his business.

Stewart Cowan
Wednesday 13 May 2009 at 12:42 pm
@Sammy
*************************************

@Stewart

I think your ‘@Sammy’ should have been ‘@Tom’.

He may care to answer you after he’s answered my question about whether he’s going to be following Nick Clegg’s lead.

I wouldn’t hold your breath.

I haven’t read the bill, and I don’t have time at the moment. Personally I am totally against the NMW. People should be free to offer jobs at whatever rate they want, and people should be free to accept or reject those jobs if they feel the wages are too low.

NMW _can_only_ reduce jobs, it cannot possibly help.

And to increase it in the middle of the worse recession in living memory with unemployment going through the roof is insane, as I would expect from your current leader.

Incidentally Tom, did you notice the wording of Gordon’s apology for all MPs the other day, he apologised for ‘the events of the last few days’. NOT the troughing that has been going on, he specifically apologised for _the_leak_, he’s upset that we’ve found out, nothing more.

Do you now understand why most people think what they do about your leader and party?

@wrinkled weasel

“It is still the case that the majority of those on minimum wage fall into the category of relative poverty”

That’s could have something to do with the fact that despite having a NMW, we still tax those people who earn it. A person working 40 hours a week at ‘minimum wage’ pays nearly 15% tax + NIC.

@Sammy

Yes, I know, but you redrew my attention to it. I was agreeing with you.

Brett,
it isn’t just that the Chinese can make things cheaper.

It’s that Europe has spent a century putting together many protections for workers starting with decent wages and conditions of work, including decent health and safety protection, employment protection and the concommitent to a wealthy workforce that allows taxation that funds our welfare state.

And businesses have gone east because they get cheap workers with few legal protections and no welfare benefits.

I doing so they have exported not just our jobs, but our investment capital, our standard of living, our technology and our management skills. Generally speaking, our wealth.

Funny how so many right-wingers claim to be patriotic while exporting our national wealth and the jobs and living standards of their compatriots.

So it’s not the NMW that costs jobs, it’s shareholders.

Mark, you are so right. I was trying to avoid getting party political, but since you brought it up, the fiasco over the 10p rate kind of demonstrates the utter confusion New Labour has when it comes to its own putative core values.

I am inclined also to agree with Alex, except that I am not a Marxist (see Weasel passim) (Are we doing irony today?) (Tom is already in trouble)(I am using too many brackets)

Weasel
“I am inclined also to agree with Alex, except that I am not a Marxist”

It’s not whether I’m a Marxist, or you are, but whether what I say is right.

So you can agree with me.

Anyway, I’m not a Marxist either.

Alex
It’s that Europe has spent a century putting together many protections for workers starting…
**************************************

Psst, fella, have you seen where a century of ‘putting together many protections for workers’ has taken the French and Spanish unemployment numbers.

You will also find (but only if you look)that western companies generally have no wish to ‘transfer’ technology to China, they transfer the low and semi-skilled jobs. It’ll be a while before you travel in a jet propelled by a Chinese engine.

The west can not compete with Chinese wage costs (or work ethic for that matter) so the low wage jobs go to China and workers in the West move up the value-added curve. Or if they’re in Britain, throw in the towel and go on the sick.

Well Wrinkled Weasel – I reckon these are weasel words….

“I think Brett is wound up about this for reasons that may not have a basis in fact”

Let’s deal with some facts.

1/ I employ 4000 people (personally). Today only 120 of those are in the UK. There’s a good reason for that relatively low percentage (see earlier)

2/ I do not compete with Europe. I compete Globally. Really, it doesn’t matter all that much what they do in Europe. You may recall that two wrongs don’t make a right.

3/ This is likely to be our most successful year in 20 years of business. I’m extremely pleased to be able to tell you that I really don’t need any help from the British State. Actually, my experience of State Aid in the UK is probably unprintable. In any case, let’s face it, the taxpayer is NOT going to subsidise my business – I’m not a Bank.

4/ When I say it’s not just China, bear in mind that I refer not only to the Far East. Also, N&S America, Eastern Europe etc. There is no point anyone banging on about European employment protections. We live on planet Earth.

Just so you can all start to get your heads around this (!); let me point out to you something that you already know full well. The world has changed. What that means is that policies that were designed to operate well in the good times when we had abolished boom and bust (remember?) look distinctly ropey at a time of great strain. I know of a number of companies in the UK that have cut wages by 20% with the agreement of their employees. That’s right – 20%. Why has this happened – it’s because the choice is s**t or bust – and people choose to survive.

Now, the NMW WOULD be a great idea if politicians had the minimals to take unpopular decisions. So, how many politicians do you know (of any party, let’s not be partisan here) who would have the gumption to say the following…..

“”OK. We realise that things are pretty bad in the economy and that really tough decisions have to be made. In the light of exceptional circumstances, we’re going to mirror the actions of businesses trying to survive in the current downturn and have decided to cut the minimum wage by 15%”"

Chances of that? From any politician of any party? Less than zero. Yet this is what great UK companies like JCB are having to do. In the absence of any politicial with the b***s to do such a thing to preserve jobs, it then follows that th NMW is a terrible idea. It destoys more than it creates.

Look, it must be considered an absolute anathema to labour politicians (of all people) that unemployment is increasing at a breathtaking and frightening rate. It’s a total betrayal of the workforce and it requires an incredibly difficult adjustment to the new stark reality. The reality is, quite simply….

BOOM TIMES – NMW – GREAT IDEA
BUST TIMES – NMW – TERRIBLE IDEA

Ergo, you need to think again. Don’t forget, unemployment is a betrayal.

And another thing….(great title)

Just a couple of things that you might be interested in that I’m seeing out in the marketplace (and then I’ll shut up. I promise).

1/ Went to see a client on Tuesday. When I got there, only one contact remained. They’d made 30% of the staff redunadant (compulsorily) that morning.

2/ I get e-mails from recruitment companies detailing staff availability (technical, technical sales and commercial sales) in our industry. A year ago, I was probably receiving one relevant e-mail per week of the type of person that we might be interested in employing. At the moment, I’m getting so many PER DAY that I’ve had to divert the e-mails to a special folder.

3/ I have a whole bunch of contacts in the industry that I’ve cultivated over the past 20 years, in different organisations, clients, competitors etc. This year (since January) most have lost their jobs. Many of them are late 40’s – early 50’s. It is highly unlikely that they will find the sorts of jobs that they have been forced to leave. Quite a number of them will need to take very sizable salary reductions. It takes quite a while to make the necessary mental adjustment, that’s for sure.

I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom by any means. However, it’s certainly not normal……..

Brett, you did not get where you are today without thinking globally. You are a wealth-creator and a taxpayer, so you have every right to moan.

But I think you have piled on a whole raft of compelling but irrelevant examples which amount to a general moan about the economy, not the substantive issue; for example you cite redundances and “sizeable salary reductions”. This can have nothing to do with the less than 2% of the British working population who earn a fiver an hour. And unless you are prepared to back up your arguments with actual data, as I have done, the argument is weak. Invite me to your HQ and enlighten me.

Whilst the contraction is global and catastrophic, it has a knock on effect of making us re-evaluate the moral repercussions. As I said, the MW must be part of an integrated plan which takes into consideration, not only the fiscal consequences, but the social ones.

We have effectively de-valued the pound by about what, 20%? Leaving aside the international ramifications, right here, in Britain, it means that we shall pay for that de-valuation in a raft of punitive taxation.

You have a right to be angry. I am f angry. But not about people who struggle, with dignity, to work for less than £200 a week.

(nb.Eddie Stobart is in the news and I commented about the firm over on my blog. It seems Eddie is able to cope very well with the economic downturn)

Yorkshire Terrorist:

“OK, here’s how the conversation would go:

Employer: Listen, I need to cut costs. You’ll need to take a wage cut to £4 an hour.
Employee: I don’t want to.
Employer: OK. Then I’m afraid you’re being made redundant. ”

Employee: OK. Then I’m afraid I shall be suing you for unfair dismissal.

Psst Sammy,
French and Spanish (and UK) unemployment numbers are no worse, probably better, than they were 100 years ago, but the unemployed are not starving or “on the parish” or languishing in TB infested slums, as they were 100 years ago (interestingly, as they are in China and other “tiger” countries, much beloved of western shareholders).

So my case stands. We in “the west” have made great progress in understanding the symbiosis between granting workers better conditions and those better conditions being the bedrock of our wealth and improved social standards, indeed our democratic bargain.

But business doesn’t care about peoples or countries. The current drive for short term profits is designed to undermine that progress by exploiting peoples and countries that have not developed those rights and standards.

In short, the “rights” of industry to make short term profits have been elevated above the rights of people to earn a decent wage and have decent social conditions.

Which brings me to the question I asked, but which you have not addressed: Isn’t it funny how so many right-wingers claim to be patriotic while exporting our national wealth and the jobs and living standards of their compatriots?

And my conclusion “So it’s not the NMW that costs jobs, it’s shareholders.”

As for the idea that only metal bashing jobs that are exported: wake up. India is the powerhouse of computer software develpment and, as sure as night follows day, Asian governments will (indeed are) demand joint ventures and R&D and Design jobs as part of any continuing relationship.

Shanghai Motors wants plants in Oxford, not for the production capacity, they’ve got plenty of that, they want the designs and the design capability. And when they have them, we won’t.

Abolish the minimum wage and raise the tax free personal allowance to £18000 a year, taking 6,000,000 out of taxation altogether. Also, if necessary, do what Milton Friedman advocated, and implement a negative income tax to help the very poorest in society.

Excellent Idea.

Without the Minimum wage maybe Britain can get some industry going again…

“The allure of a minimum wage is deceptive and should be resisted … Fostering a high wage, high skill economy is the only way to reverse Britain’s relative economic decline and to generate the resources to eradicate poverty. But the minimum wage is not the answer. If anything the minimum wage will make it even harder to achieve these ends.”

Ed Balls, 1991