And another thing…

The irony of a Labour Party supporter commenting on the tribalism of others always amuses. Thanks, Tom.

Ob – if you think the two are remotely comparable, then I assume you have never lived in the west of Scotland.

As an logical and reasonable person /scientist / atheist (pick any of the above)I will never understand some peoples obsessive nature and willingness to react violently to any small perceived difference in views or opinion in other people.

no offence to any non- scientist / atheist intended of course. People are quite able to be reasonable and think things through without either of those qualities, just stating my own objective position.

Atrocious, I agree.

I don’t know what can be done about it. That it’s certainly not new -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots

- doesn’t make it any easier for its victims.

You know something, Tom, I think Northern Ireland is no more or less backward a place than the rest of the UK.

I would, however, say that Ulster has retained a culture we Brits (remember NI is in the UK, but not Britain) lost in about 1800.

There, they have an “eye for an eye” approach. Obviously this poor innocent man was not guilty of any crime, but he was a Catholic, he was a loose nationalist and he lived in a part of town which corresponded with both those things.

In the eyes of many, a policeman, 2 soldiers dead, the Irish winning the Six Nations, Celtic beating Rangers in the Cup Final all count as strikes against the Loyalist community, and demand revenge.

This revenge is carried out indiscriminately, tragically.

But it’s just the same as took place on the streets of London or Glasgow 200 years ago. A Protestant man killed in Gorbals. The vengeance? A Catholic killed in the same area.

An Englishman killed on the streets of Whitechapel. The response? A Priest attacked on the street.

So how do you move the culture of Ulster on to our standards? You don’t. It’s a unique place. They don’t take kindly to central government imposing anything on them, let alone cultural change.

Oh dear.

I fought Hiz’ut Tahir in 193-1995 at Essex Uni during the Majour Govt. I saw then how religion was a fuel to violence. When I liven in Glasgow in 2000-02, I saw how religion fueled violence. It was the only place I;ve ever lived in the UK where people asked openly what religion you were. Failing that, they asked what football team you supported. I said Tottenham so they assumed I was Jew and thus beyond the scope of their sectarian murders.

So as an Englishman who’s had the temerity to excercise his British Citizenship and dare to live in Scotland, I must say that this kind of nonsense is both apalling and beyond the bounds of acceptible behaviour, at least south of the border. If the SNP bring you out of the UK, or the Tories kick you out, I sincerely hope that you enjoy ealing with your collection of bigots, suprecimicists and reality deniers who parade up and down the streets of Glasgow proclaiming the Protestant superiority. Or did you think ‘marching season’ was an exclusively Norther Irish thing?

Because I remember how those scumbags woke me up on many a morning in my Gorbals flat with their triuphalist parades where it was a local offence to cross their path…

Good post, Tom – but don’t be too pessimistic. Scotland and Northern Ireland are just a couple of centuries behind the rest of the British Isles in this regard.
I was born in Glasgow but like you Iwas brought up properly by my parents who did not have a sectarian bone in their body. My Granny was a convert to Catholicism (and was ostracised by her family until the Clydebank blitz) but did not change her love of Rangers F.C. or indeed the Royal family. I used to be proud ( I still am, actually) of the fact that in Granny’s house there was a picture of the Pope and the Queen, there was Granny’s Rangers mug and Grandpa’s Celtic mug. By the way, don’t think it’s got anything to do with education. They have plenty of Catholic schools here in England but I’ve yet to see any sectarian graffiti.
Anyway, the big picture is that things are getting better even in the Six Counties thanks in no small part to Tony Blair and the Good Friday Agreement – not that the blogosphere is in the mood to credit him with that.

Yeah, I was going to say Josh, that whole I’m reasonable thus an atheist (as if being a theist disqualifies me from being reasonable and logical) is a tad irritating as a Christian myself.

I’ve always found it mindblowing that “servants” to “a peaceful” and “all-loving” God feel the need to kill each other, but when atheists come along and mock believers for their “delusions” and “irrationality” it saddens me. Sure being above such “delusion” removes the need to mock others as below you? Can’t we all just get along?

I think humans simply have a built in desire to place one’s self above the rest. For theists it is because they believe “God prefers them to all the others”, and for atheists it’s because they are so much more “intelligent, reasonable and logical”.

Of course, I’m glad to admit there are many exceptions on both sides. I for one have no problem with anyone else and their beliefs as long as they don’t force theirs upon me.

“That grown “men” would get so upset about the result of a game of football that they would commit assault on the person they married?”

A bit like the pending result of the next general election.

Its fear Tom that one section of a community is going to overwhelm you and opress you . Its a bit like a Labour government, it does not see other points of view, and just imposes its dogma. We of course can vote you out, but if we could not then you could see that trouble would break out.

Yes I am afraid that outside their benighted section of the west of scotland and sundry folly in NI no-one in the rest of the UK, but no-one, gives a stuff about any of it.

Can they not see that? Or do they think that their low-rent sectarianism somehow makes them ‘important’. What it is to be the toughest (ie loudest) guy in your local pub eh. Is that really the height of these people’s ambitions?

A very good post.

And IU agree that thanks to John Major and the Good Friday Agreement things have improved.

And little is done about it in the west of Scotland because the bigotry runs right up the power ladder across the spectrum from professionals down. We’re not just talking about the working class here.

I knew a young Spanish chap who came to live in Glasgow and something happened, I forget what, but I said to him, “sometimes I’m ashamed of this city,” to which he replied, “sometimes?”.

Fortunately for him, I am not one of those Scots who can’t take a joke. When I was young I could get very annoyed if anyone dissed Glasgow or Scotland (or Rangers, for that matter). I used to think that if Celtic supporters liked Ireland so much, why didn’t they go and live there.

And the most vile and inexplicable creature on earth was a Proddy who supported Celtic.

I have since grown up and see it for what it is. It might be a ‘religious’ war, but those doing the killing aren’t singing ‘Onward Christian Soldiers’.

@Harry T – too right, or at least it was many years ago. I was once called into my boss’ office and asked why I was recruiting so many ‘papists’ (he could tell from the names)!

I’ve lived in England for over twenty years and only once has my religion been asked – by a fellow Glaswegian in a pub who wanted to know which school I’d attended (another giveaway).

In Glasgow you just live with it, but it’s lovely not to have to.

A serious question out of curiosity: What happens if you are a Glaswegian atheist? Presumably there must be some, but is it in any way socially possible NOT to ‘pick a side’ in Glasgow, whether in religion or in football?

I live in the west of Scotland. I’m being raised in a Catholic household. My parents feel strongly about catholic values as do I but they wouldn’t expect me to be hateful towards someone with different beliefs. I don’t approve of the Orange Order parades disrupting the community ever year and they only add to the problems we have here. The theological differences aren’t worth falling out over but it’s important to recognise the differences and know what you’re standing for.

After Rangers won, I had the misfortune of driving by a car which was playing sectarian songs and its passengers who were displaying a Union Jack flag out the window for all to see. These are the type of people who don’t understand and are pursuing a worthless cause. The flag has nothing to do with football or religion and it’s the reason why so many people here are turned against it.

I can’t see this geographically unique issue being resolved anytime soon.

To the person who compared getting upset over football to those getting upset about the elections, what utter nonsense you dribble.
The election of a public official matters a great deal; if you elect a completely different government, your taxes may rise or fall. Your wages may be forced down or pushed up. You may find some of your hobbies illegal. If you’re the “wrong” colour and the party in question were racist thugs and skinheads like the NP, you might get deported (although I’d severely hope no matter what their various main parties have done, the populace aren’t driven to vote for the neo-nazis).
If the government voted in were a socialist one, you might find your company nationalised. If it were a conservative one, you might find your public agency privatised. Hell, if (and Gods willing, soon) the election were instead a referendum, you might find the country you live in is now a seperate country.
Elections matter.

22 blokes running around a patch of grass kicking a bit of leather around? No, not really.
Personally, I quite enjoy the rugby; the fun of the tactics, the cheering and singing of the crowd, whether I should support Wales or Scotland (really hard in the 6 nations I can tell you)…

I wouldn’t ever fight anyone over it. Or even call them (serious) names, or promote racism because of it. Why? Because I’m a rugby fan. Just like no-one who is a football fan would do so either.
Anyone who does isn’t a fan. They’re a criminal, and deserve to see the inside of the local nick, closely followed by the local Sheriff’s Court, followed by the local Gaol. For some considerable time.
If they try and invoke religion as well, then they are truly sickening. No words I’ve tried to conjure forth can describe how low, contemptible and disgusting I find such people.

“In the eyes of many, a policeman, 2 soldiers dead, the Irish winning the Six Nations, Celtic beating Rangers in the Cup Final all count as strikes against the Loyalist community, and demand revenge”
I’ve lived in Northern Ireland all of my life and I can honestly say: the VAST majority of people don’t think or act that way. We’re all sick of this and we want REAL peace but unfortunately we’re being held back by these bigoted thugs. I think the real feelings of everyone in NI was shown after the terrible deaths of the 2 soldiers and the policeman: everyone was devestated, not just protestants, but everyone.

For the record – the murderers were “celebrating” Their team, Rangers, winning the league over Celtic. Who knows what they’d have done if they had lost.

De-facto enforced segregation of children in schools in Scotland and Northern Ireland serves to promulgate our own form of apartheid on those who could have the power to stop it in its tracks.
I’m an atheist and former Catholic. For my sins, I follow Airdrie Utd.

Fighting over your football team is far more respectable than fighting over who has the best imaginary friend.

I think the whole issue of sectarianism is vastly exaggerated. Scotland has a serious problem with alcohol and violence – the same is probably true of Ireland, both north and south. Let’s focus on that, back what the Scottish Government is trying to do about it and stop obsessing about religion.

When drunken bampots square up to each other and someone ends up dead or seriously injured it is nothing whatsoever to do with religion or indeed sectarianism. Religion may be used as the excuse but it is not and never has been the reason. The reason is drink and a culture that equates being a man with being a hard man.

Incidentally Shaun if I were you, I would be a bit less smug about your lack of understanding of bigots, supremacists and reality deniers. So that sort of thing is unacceptable south of the border is it? Then perhaps you could explain to me why England has BNP councillors and Scotland doesn’t – who voted for them if you are so immune to bigotry I wonder – and why everyone is so worried about the BNP/UKIP doing well in elections down south? That doesn’t really make much sense if what you claim is true.

It’s obviously disappointing that in the twenty-first century there are still those whose continuing belief in magic allows them to posit gods and devils, and to talk habitually to invisible dead people, and not in any way appreciate the nature and depth of their delusion.

But disappointment becomes abhorrence when they actually come to blows over it.

My iron age superstition is superior to your iron age superstition.

Ye, to coin a phrase, gods.

Somewhat Miffed – Partick Thistle.

Ruaridh/Somewhat Miffed – the 50% of Glaswegians who are women really couldn’t care less whether Rangers or Celtic are ahead and believe it or not there are actually large numbers of Glaswegian males who don’t care either!

Indy – I really, wouldn’t bet that there are no Glasgow women that care, all the Celtic season ticket holders I know are women.
Also, FWIW, I think you’re wrong about the sectarianism being exagerrated: round here you can tell when Rangers are playing & whether or not they won by the noises the drunks make as they come off the last train. Sure the alcohol is a major factor in the violence but the sectarianism gives it a focus and an outlet.

Somewhat Miffed: atheism is irrelevant – if you don’t support either Old Firm team then the supporters will assume you’re the opposite of them – the huns think I’m a tim & the tims think I’m a hun.

One of the joys of going to an English university was realising, about half way through the first term, that no-one had yet tried to find which religion I was and that no-one cared either.

In the eyes of many, a policeman, 2 soldiers dead, the Irish winning the Six Nations, Celtic beating Rangers in the Cup Final all count as strikes against the Loyalist community, and demand revenge.

I cannot believe that Ireland winning the six nations can provide any justification for taking an innocent mans life. I believe the Irish rugby team is made up of both catholic and protestant players and represent all of Ireland including Ulster.

It is time for the people involved with there dated opinions, that are based on historical events to grow up and join the 21st century. All you have to do is measure international opinion regarding this event there is no doubt that this behaviour is deemed backward and does nothing to enhance the reputation of either Scotland or Northern Ireland.

It is very sad that this man has lost his life when he was neither involved in the recent killing of the policeman or a member of the Irish rugby team, in fact he had no control over either of this events, his only crime, being a catholic.

An eye for an eye makes the world blind.

Somewhat MIffed, its ok to be atheiest because the sectarianism of Old Firm supporters is nothing to do with religion or Christianity. They are scum and a disgrace to Scotland.