And another thing…

Ironic that it’s the Secretary of State for local government who stabs Labour Councillors in the back!

I don’t think shenanigans should be indulged in at all. Your behaviour on leaving office was honourable, reflecting a deeper commitment to the ideals we believe in than some people.

self indulgent Blairite. And I had respect for Hazel before today. That’s gone. Difficult elections, made almost impossible. Cheers Haze.

But please don’t use “Blairite” as an insult…

I almost felt the need to use some stars in the word.

Ironic that it’s the Secretary of State for local government who stabs Labour Councillors in the back!

Really?

I can’t wait to see Sponge B O B ’s take on that then. )

Where is the little weasel tonight?

I may or may not be referring to the ex Communities Secretary there. Although I’m reliably informed that her usual soubriquet is “Chipmunk”. LOL

£13,000? . . . worth every penny for what she’s just done to this venally corrupt Labour government.

Can we use “Brownite” as an insult?

Taken from Newsnight (and not particularly well answered by Shaun Woodward) – how can the Government go into the elections today with vacancies at the very highest positions. It’s a situation I certainly have never known, I wonder what electoral consequences will come from this…

But please don’t use “Blairite” as an insult…

Why?

Is ‘Brownite’ any worse?

How about ‘illegal Iraq War starters’ – that’s quite an insult to humanity, now isn’t it.

Labour deserve to DIE for what they have done in 12 years – hopefully from the ashes will arise a true, left of centre party not mired in sleaze and corruption.

I disagree with Ellie: I think it’s a bit old-fashioned to call this sort of resignation self-indulgent. I don’t think it’ll necessarily lose votes. That assumes lots of people are under some sort of illusion that Labour is united right now, and that we had much chance of doing well before today. We’re in a new world where we gain voters’ respect by being honest, rather than lying for the sake of presenting a front.

It’s in Labour’s interests, too. We’re heading for the rocks, and I don’t think “steady as she goes” is the right approach now if we really want Labour to have the slightest chance of winning next year. Sometimes loyalty wields a knife.

‘politics’ has always been fun, bright and enlightening, its the current crop of politicians that are dull. You spin if you want to, but the weaving of cloth is where the profit lays.

Michael Crick on Newsnight refused to confirm who his crib sheet has down as top plotter: Tom, is it you?

Labour deserve to DIE for what they have done in 12 years

I’m no fan of Blair. But get a grip will you? Labour could and should have gone further, but with a NHS unrecognisable from the one left on it’s knees in 1997,a minimum wage entrenched in the national moral structure, Labour can be proud of our 12 years and, in recognising our shortcomings, be determined to do bigger and better things in years to come.

“I think it’s a bit old-fashioned to call this sort of resignation self-indulgent”
people in these times vote for governments and parties they feel secure and safe with, and for leaders they feel are leading. When recession hits, we want the state to take over, providing a safaty net and more. With ministers undermining what little credibility Brown has left, it destabilises the image of the Labour government.
And the ‘more time with family’ excuse that so many offer is an insult to our intelligence.
Be bold and be brave, but be clever.

There’s rarely a quiet moment in politics at the moment! Looking forward to the next week or so with interest.

We’re in a new world where we gain voters’ respect by being honest, rather than lying for the sake of presenting a front.

Well there you have it!

A Labour supporter comes out and confirms what we have all suspected all along – that Labour are a bunch of LIARS.

You couldn’t make this stuff up.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Or could you? ;o)

@fitaloon 11.01pm

I think that was a ‘no comment’ form Mr Harris!

While I’m by no means a Labour supporter (quite the opposite) I can’t help but feel a twinge of sympathy for you all. The actions of one person have caused so much trouble for your leader and will lose you even more votes at a time when you really, really can’t afford to lose any. It’s rather a sad state of affairs for the Labour party.

God, I can’t believe I just wrote that, let alone actually feel it. Ugh.

Blears is a self-centred individual who timed this deliberately for maximum impact. And politics isn’t dull Tom you’re right, in Labour’s case its treacherous. Watching Newsnight tonight I could not believe what was going on in Labour circles. Emails and letters and promises of more to come at the weekend. Good grief why don’t they have the guts to be open about what they think instead of skulking around sneaking snippets to journalists which ultimately humiliates their own Party and no one else. This crisis has come about because of Expenses and Madam Butterfly who finally resigned today issued a speech about her resignation which was a pack of lies from start to finish. She is in it up to her neck and still she won’t admit she was in the wrong. All that nonsense about re-connecting with her roots. There are more figures kicking around tonight that she made a cool £80K out of various flats she sold! The only roots Hazel is bothered with are on her head! But what these people are trying to do to Brown is despicable. How do you feel about them Tom? Seriously?

Tom – a question.

If Gordon Brown asked you to rejoin the Government at Minister of State level or higher, would you accept?

I’m just pleased at last to hear someone in Westminster acknowledge the shafting that so many dedicated councillors have received at the hands of their Labour ‘colleagues’ in recent weeks.

Jo @ 11.37.

Well said. We seem to be witnessing the extremes. There is the attention seeking behaviour of Hazel Blears, who made a large profit at our expense, and now threatens to wipe out hours of honest toil by activists all over the country for her own motives. Did you see the brooch? Please!!!!
Then there is the blatant cowardice of plotters who haven’t even the decency to approach the PM in person, but just love to gossip with the puffed up political journalists who fill the airwaves and written press with their fatuous and self-seeking opinions. They’re even worse than posters on blogs who hide behind the “anonymous” tag.
(And yes, you may have realised that my real name isn’t Rapunzel, but it’s the only one I use, and anyway, I always wanted long hair. And a handsome prince who could climb. But that’s another story.)
I fell much greater sympathy for Jackie Smith, who has suffered months of criticism from press and blogs, and whose embarrassment at her husband’s illicit purchases must have been acute. At least she came out with support for Gordon Brown. I can believe that her reasons for quitting were genuine and that the timing of the announcement were not her choice.

You’re right Tom. It’s certainly not dull. But I bet there have been times recently when you’d wished it was!

I feel so sorry for al our candidates, sitting councillors and MEPs included, who have every right to feel let down by their Westminster colleagues, for more reasons than one.

But it’s par for the course, isn’t it? I don’t wish to make a party political point, but pretty well all these MPs are primarily concerned with themselves and their own personal advantage. And if they are secondarily concerned with anything, then after very careful consideration, they find that they are concerned with themselves and their own personal advantage.

That’s what the expenses scandal is all about, after all. Putting themselves first, and not this country, or the people who elected them, or even their own parties. It’s about looking after Number One.

And you can see it in their responses to the developing crisis. One of the not-so-astonishing features of this scandal is the ease with which these MPs force one another to walk the plank off this sinking parliament into political oblivion. Brown’s doing it. Cameron’s doing it too. But it’s never them who announces they are standing down. They’re are saving their own skins as they effortlessly foist the blame onto someone else, who may have been a trusted colleague and friend the previous week.

If they were half decent people, they – Brown, Cameron, Clegg – would all say, separately or in concert, “We are deeply ashamed to be members of this parliament, and we are all stepping down to submit ourselves to the judgment of the electorate, whom we have dismally failed.”

But they’re not going to do that, are they? They’re none of them that principled.

The expenses scandal has been bad enough. But the bitter infighting among the MPs as they try to hang onto their threadbare reputations presents a far more dismal spectacle.

@Carl
“We’re in a new world where we gain voters’ respect by being honest, rather than lying for the sake of presenting a front”.

That’s the whole point. It isn’t a new world. Honesty and transparency are all we have ever wanted.

Forget electoral reform. Forget citizens bodies (most of us are far too busy working and bringing up families). Forget every single thing that has been suggested to re-engage with the ‘public’.

Honesty and transparency…just those two will do

@Ellie
I can’t quite see how Hazel Blears’ resignation is self indulgent. She had nothing to gain from resigning. Of course, she didn’t have anything to lose either. But I suspect she realises that Brown is discredited to the extent that there is little to lose and potentially a lot to gain for the party from getting rid of him.

An entire year of Brown seeming – and I mean seeming rather than being – unable to empathise with the plight of people who are experiencing unbearably tough times would be disastrous for the party to the extent that our brand could become as toxic as the Tory brand did in the mid 1990s. It isn’t quite there yet, but it will be very soon.

The best thing for Labour, but more importantly for the country, would be for the PM to resign and be replaced by Alan Johnson.

I know that I haven’t mentioned policy once – I actually think Brown’s response to the financial crisis has been the right one – but politics is also about emotions and people need to feel that they have a leader who understands their problems. In the way he speaks, Brown does not show this vital quality. Alan Johnson does. I only hope that this all happens very quickly.

Everyone,

Please vote Labour today. No other party has done, or looks likely to do, as much for the least advantaged in our society as Labour has. Of course, things like the 10p tax issue make it difficult to argue this convincingly, but just remember that Labour has improved the NHS beyond recognition, brought in the minimum wage for the lowest paid workers and cancelled the debt of the world’s poorest countries. Getting anything like this from the Tories is inconcieveable.

So Ellie . . . do you really think that Bevan would even recognise today’s Labour Party?

NHS?

This would be the one which is currently being privatised via the back door?
Where whistle-blowers lose their jobs for exposing management failure and corruption?
Where Nurses and doctors are so demoralised by pointless targets that they are leaving the service in droves?

You’re right . . . I don’t recognise it as the NHS I once knew in 1997 or before that.

Minimum wage – yup, good stuff.

You forgot to mention FOI, although I bet Gordon is kicking himself for that now. LOL

If you can only point to TWO good things that Labour have achieved in TWELVE YEARS, then I would have to question your continued support for them.

I suppose all the sleaze and corruption can be easily overlooked and/or forgiven?

OH! You also don’t mention an ILLEGAL WAR!

Sorry . . .were we supposed to have forgotten that by now?

such shenanigans should have been indulged in after polling day in the European and local elections.

So you’re saying Hazel was right to resign and that the letter should be circulated, signed and have Gordon offed.
Understandable, the man is not fit to be PM anymore (if he ever was) and personal animosity is to be expected given he did effectively sack you merely for writing a blog and being, from all accounts a good junior Minister (for a Labour MP, that is).

Nice to know that you’re happy to clarify your position, even if you can’t come right out and say it. Much like Hazel “my-resignation-letter-doesn’t-even-mention-Gordon” Blears…

THE LAST DAYS OF THE NIXON REGIME

Tom this shambolic situation just cannot continue.
Brown will never go he will have to be pushed.
You must be all frighened of him.
It just shows how weak Labour MPs are. They are watching their party and country go down the drain, then have the cheek to call Cameron ‘do nothing’.
Labour and the Scots will never be forgiven for all this.

Everyone knows that the answer is to call a general election so the Conservatives can start the very long job of trying to rebuild our country.
The longer you stay in power the harder it will be.

I’m not surprised by H Blears’ actions.
Totally consistent with a self serving “me,me,me” bunch of third rate politicians………………….. run by a man whose speech is littered with “I,I,I” with the occasional “we” put in for the sake of imbalance.

@Jo

‘But what these people are trying to do to Brown is…

exactly what Brown and his people did to Blair.’

Sorry. Hijacked your sentence there.

Tom says he didn’t know HB would resign ‘today’. Fair enough. But since we’re back to Kremlin watching the key word has to be ‘today’. You could tell she was going to resign – she wasn’t on the Treasury bench for PMQs a couple of weeks back – she was standing behind the Speaker’s chair.

Lenin’s Tomb. Roof. It’s the same I tells ya.

So, no call yet from number ten to join the “cabinet of the damned”?

Labour’s “Go Fourth” campaign seems to have been a spectacular success, although it does rely on the Lib Dems going third…

What a mess, isn’t is marvellous that the government is riddled with infighting and political paralysis when we have men at war, an economy on the rocks and palpable public anger.
Brown has failed, simple as that. He kicked out Blair because of his blood lust for power, the only problem is he isn’t any good. Tony must be laughing, he can no longer worry about his legacy which has is improved hour by hour, day by day of this Brown premiership. Gordon is blind to the world, but I think it is a given that he will go down as one of the most unsuccessful PM’s of modern times and lead Labour into a decade of wandering the wilderness having been decimated by the culmination of the Blairite/Brownite factional warfare.

I suppose it’s poetic, two men took a broken and lost party and fixed it. On of the two helped lead it to historic victories, a real vote winner. The other will lead it back to where the party was found it but in a worse state than ever before.

Will you be waiting by the phone for the expected reshuffle? Back to transport in the top job?

Ferrets on speed in a bag. Huge fun. Amazed Brown is not charging us to watch – he could make a fortune, and after all, we need all the money we can get given that he has put us in hock till the end of time with his ideology.

“I had no idea about the mysterious letter until the BBC called to tell me.”

Don’t you think that is rather telling ? Your peers think there is no point talking to you. Perhaps never voting against your party isn’t so great as after a while you get viewed as a sheep ?

“I feel so sorry for al our candidates, sitting councillors and MEPs included,”

Terrible for them. Poor things. There they were trying to get on the gravy train and low and behold, you lot ruined it for them. Still, at least you still have your golden pensions.

You may detect a lack of empathy with your sorrow. You see, it’s the Country and people I feel sorry for. It’s a right mess now and all down to the worst post-war parasitical parliament. We’ve had to fund this destruction.

Shock Update;

Tom Harris third in Railway Eys Poll for SoS for Transport (after Ivor the Engine and Susan Boyle)

[...] On the other hand,  I am becoming bleakly amused by the details of the alleged e-mail plot that is going around, driven by breathless reporting in the Guardian, who appear to know more about the secret plot than most Labour MPs. [...]

“One of the two helped lead it to historic victories, a real vote winner.”

Roberto, I hope you don’t mean Blair? Blair was the one who started the rot actually after Iraq. Blair was the one who led many Labour Party members to resign from the Party actually. And ultimately when his many lies were exposed Blair was the one who, once found out, was forever labelled as one of the most dishonest, untrustworthy politicians ever. Try to remember that Blair went of his own will only because he was finally told they were giving him no choice. He was losing them votes then.

@Silent Hunter.
“How about ‘illegal Iraq War starters’ – that’s quite an insult to humanity, now isn’t it.”

It may have been disgusting, but it wasn’t illegal.

We had no treaty with Iraq.

Rapunzel despite my complete disillusionment with Labour for some years now I still get very angry when the treachery stuff starts. Fifth column stuff is despicable and no one does treason quite like the Labour Party. It is thoroughly depressing that these idiots will risk a General Election which they will lose just to force Brown out. One thing is certain, if we think things are bad now, we will know all about it when the Tories get in.

I’m completely delighted that Brown is getting payback for his years of disgraceful disloyalty to Blair.

One can only hope that his downfall also triggers the removal of his coterie of olden labour back stabbers and begins a renewal of New Labour in opposition.

Which is why I believe that only in defeat can Labour win the general election.

“I can’t quite see how Hazel Blears’ resignation is self indulgent. She had nothing to gain from resigning. Of course, she didn’t have anything to lose either. But I suspect she realises that Brown is discredited to the extent that there is little to lose and potentially a lot to gain for the party from getting rid of him.”

Pete, Blears thinks Brown is discredited? Blears who has been at the centre of even tax fraud in recent weeks, thinks Brown is discredited? Her own reputation is in tatters. She goes on about her working class roots yet has been exposed as a money grabbing, dishonest woman who was caught out bigtime over the Expenses debacle. She will never be free of that tag ever nor should she be while she stilld denies all of it. Her behaviour this week wasn’t based on any concern for her Party, it was a carefully planned, vindictive act, the sort of act women carry off very well. She makes Lady Macbeth look like Mary Poppins.

Liberanos good God I don’t know how anyone could have loyalty to a man who was nothing more than a war criminal who took this country down a road the Labour Party should never have allowed him to take us. Blair made all of us a target for terrorists Lib. Never forget that. Blair brought bombs to London because of our illegal invasion of Iraq. And then he pointed to everyone else as “terrorists” and ignored our own actions in kicking the whole thing off. When it came to loyalty Blair had none for this country because his only loyalty was towards the biggest control freak on the planet and doing his bidding, not ours. And his loyalty was great indeed up to and including inventing lies about WMD in order to get around the small matter of no second UN resolution. Maybe you think that’s ok but me? I find it vomit-inducing that hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died because of good old Tony’s shocking ability to stand up in the Commons and lie to Parliament and the country over something so important and something he knew would have terrible repercussions for all of us. Blair had to go because by then everything was out in the open and he was losing them votes. That’s a fact. And the nonsense between him and Brown over “ownership” of the Party should never have been allowed to develop as it did. Where were the rest of them then? Did they try to stop it? No, they were choosing a side. Real mature approach eh? Whatever happened to “Unity is Strength”?

Have you been offered a new job yet Tom?

Quick question Tom (before the results come in) …

if Labour are beaten into third spot would you agree you have lost the mandate to govern by the people ?

If yes, I assume an election will be called.
If no, what will it take for you to hear the voices of the public ?

@Jo

Blears being discredited does not prevent her from recognising that Brown is discredited as well. Blears was Communities Secretary and Brown is Prime Minister – it matters far more for the future of the country that Brown has not shown what is needed to govern effectively than that Hazel Blears has been morally dubious with regard to her taxes.

I see no reason to believe that Hazel Blears would put at risk many years of her own work simply for the sake of vindictiveness. After all, she isn’t a complete idiot (even if the tax thing was idiotic) – she’s worked her way to the Cabinet.

I agree with you mostly re Blair and Iraq – I do think, however that the bombers on 7/7 were the ones responsible for the bombings, not Blair (he was responsible for what happened in Iraq).

And as for this Blairites v Brownites, New Labour v Old Labour, business it makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. All it does is alienate people. I want workable ideas about how we can improve the quality of life for people in this country and around the world, not about how to undermine another side of the party. Brown should go because he simply does not have the political capital to execute the policies the country needs for issues beyond the economy, not because of the side he has taken in some petty little squabble.

Triffid100: “if Labour are beaten into third spot would you agree you have lost the mandate to govern by the people ?”

Do you anything at all about Britain? Are you seriously suggesting that every government which becomes unpopular at any time during a parliament has to call an election? Following that logic, Thatcher would have been forced to call an election in 1980 and 1981, 1985, 1986, 1988.1989 and 1990. Major would have had to call an election in 1991, 1992 (twice!), 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.

I am an ex-pat based in Toronto. On this morning’s business news, the key point on the European market round up was how the ‘Gordon Brown Crisis’ was destabalising the UK markets. References made to open disagreements in the Cabinet and dissatisfaction amongst Labour MPs.

For that reason alone (and there are many more)there has to be an election; otherwise the damage to the UK economy will be continue and responsibility for this will solely be down to one person.

All I will say is that such shenanigans should have been indulged in after polling day in the European and local elections.

You’re right there, however I’m a tad amused that you seem more worried by the timing rather than the shenanigans themselves.

I think Blears’ has been treated shabbly compared with others in the Cabinet so I can kind of understand her ‘woman scorned’ moment, but my sympathy only goes so far given her ‘flipping’ antics.

She mentions ‘ordinary people’ and ‘getting back to the people of Salford’, but had produced, at the drop of a hat, a £13,000 cheque which she proceed to wave about on TV. Out of touch? Surely not?

Although Brown is in a bit of a hole, I still remain unconvinced that he will be toppled. Labour MPs seemed to have as much clue regarding conducting this coup as trying not to lose people’s data.

It’s hard not to think of the phrase which contains the words; ‘organise’, brewery’…etc

@Liberanos hursday 4 June 2009 at 10:48 am

@Silent Hunter.
“How about ‘illegal Iraq War starters’ – that’s quite an insult to humanity, now isn’t it.”

It may have been disgusting, but it wasn’t illegal.

We had no treaty with Iraq.
//

IRRELEVANT. This was a war of aggression; the only threat Iraq was to us was that made up by Blair, Campbell and co. This was a war of Aggression, and it was that crime which saw various Nazis strung up at Nuremburg for. The very selfsame crime. All this shows is that the “International Community” is a sham – Blair is a war criminal, the same as Milosovic, the Darfur guy, Taylor from Sierra Leone, etc. No different.

Zimbabwe UK!

From Guido

UKIP are complaining that ballot papers are being handed out folded over and people don’t realise their name is over the fold. Supporters are complaining to their party HQ that UKIP were not on the ballot paper…

The SNP are demanding the immediate cessation of automated marketing calls by the Labour party – using the voice of Coronation Street actress Liz Dawn. The calls directly market the Labour party – a breach of the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations 2003. Desperately deprived of supporters willing to knock on doors the Labour Party is willing to break the law…

Sergeant Plodder: You need to calm down, mate. The fact is that your blind hatred for Tony was never reflected in the wider nation. How frustrating for you that no-one takes seriously any claims that Tony is guilty of war crimes.

“It may have been disgusting, but it wasn’t illegal.”

Lib it WAS illegal. End of. Those who still lie about that delude no one except themselves. We cannot attack another sovereign country that is not attacking us. Iraq was not attacking us. Straw had already said publicly we could not legally attack Iraq without a new UN resolution. That was the legal way to go, via the UN. The Security Council wasn’t going to for action against Iraq however. Vetoes were going to be used against Bush and Blair’s wish to invade and what did they do? They walked away from the UN and went on their own. That was illegal too, pure and simple. Until of course the imaginary WMDs turned up. How anyone by this time could still be whining that we did nothing illegal is beyond my comprehension. Only a fool could take such a position. It has cost us dear Lib in terms of our international reputation because ultimately we became no more than terrorists ourselves because of Blair’s lies except we were better equipped than the average terrorist.

Oh and Tom, plenty of people take seriously the idea of bringing charges of war crimes against Blair because he is guilty as sin of the charge. The sad part is that the Labour Party stood by and let him drag all of us into it. Iraq is THE single issue Blair is hated for and his lies over WMD were exposed. Even then you all sat back and allowed him to stay in post when his terrible lies were made public. And when honest people in this country marched against the war in Iraq clowns like Reid came out and labelled us guilty of treason. That is the sort of bile New Labour brought us Tom and it sickened many Labour people to their stomachs. Those guilty of treason are those governments who send their own soldiers to their deaths to a war that was based on the lies of a Prime Minister. That’s treason.

@Jo
Lots of people have memory lapses about terrorist outrages. You are not alone.

What brought bombs to London was an ideology which promised eternal paradise to those who killed unbelievers for Allah.

The same ideology which killed a few thousand in New York, BEFORE the invasion of Iraq.

And it’s the same ideology our security services are trying to us safe from, every day of the week.

Please don’t give these terrifying people any comfort, even unintentionally, by positing a bizarre equivalence of their actions to western civilisation.

@Jo

It clearly doesn’t mitigate one’s disgust for it, but the war with Iraq was not illegal.

It would only have been illegal if a treaty had existed and been unilaterally abrogated.

It wasn’t.

Liberanos,

I missed an IRA bomb in London by a matter of minutes. Heard three others go off. Still not prepared to trade my freedom for “protection” from loonies. Especially when those “protecting” us are as loony as the extremists.

Tom – EVERYONE knows the books were cooked over Iraq. Except you, apparently. Blair, Straw, Hoon, Brown are all war criminals.

Liberanos.

We know iraq did not foster Alky Ada (until we went in). We know they were not a threat to us.

Treaties are nothing to do with it. It was a war of aggression, and therefore illegal. Quite simple, really..

Rapunzel
I fell much greater sympathy for Jackie Smith, who has suffered months of criticism from press and blogs.
***************************************

So the fact that poor Jackie failed to take up a grace-and-favour apartment and tried to pretend that her sister’s spare bedroom was her main home so she could trouser an extra twenty thou a year tax- free and on the taxpayer…

This doesn’t worry you?

A Labour Party faithful tells it like it is

And this is where we are now

Pretty pass, you’d have to say.

Anyone got any thoughts on turn-out today? Quiet when I went, with a skip in my step and a tra-la-la, but then we’re country folk and do things at leisure down yer.

Tom,

Regardless of legality, Iraq was a supreme fuck-up, and a warning to be diligent around people who smile too much. The reason I no longer vote Labour, Tom, is Blair. Brown has merely reinforced that. Spectacularly, you have to say, but Blair is a smile too far, that invites one of those kisses your fellow countrymen from Glasgow are renowned for.

‘Are you seriously suggesting that every government which becomes unpopular at any time during a parliament has to call an election?’.

Quite. Certainly not. Times come though when parties have to ditch their leaders. This is such a time. A collapse of support for either of the two big parties is not likely to be a good thing for any of us, however we vote, and Brown has now become a guarantor of such a collapse for Labour.

Sergeant Plodder:

Thanks for that – saved me the bother )

And Tom! . . . you’re dead wrong about the public hating Tony Blair – why else did you replace him with a completely useless pratt.

Sergeant Plodder
“Treaties are nothing to do with it. It was a war of aggression, and therefore illegal. Quite simple, really..”

Quite untrue, really. Treaties are everything to do with it.

The confusion arises when morality and legality are conflated.

An action may be deeply immoral and perfectly legal. And vice versa.

Clearly, it makes little difference if you’re dead.

But as the word is so constantly and vigorously applied to this situation, one might as well take the opportunity to correct it.

What a joke!

Hazel did the country a favour.
It’s not the candidates, sitting councillors and MEPs you should feel sorry for, it’s the honest, hardworking people of this great country who’ve been shafted by Labour over the past 12 years.

I hope Labour in all it’s entirety disinegrates over the next week!

Tom says “Do you anything at all about Britain?”

I assume the missing word is “know” ? Yes, I think know something about Britain. You see I don’t refer to myself as a “brownite nor “blairite” but “British”.

I would like to think I know a fair amount about my nation, including incidentally, the text of the speech given by Oliver Cromwell on 20 April 1653.

“Are you seriously suggesting that every government which becomes unpopular at any time during a parliament has to call an election?”

Why is that such a shocking idea ? If the people no longer wish you to be in power … why not ? Why do the people not have the power to sack MP’s ?
What makes MP’s believe that once they are through the door they can claim what they like and are untouchable from the law or the public (for up to 5 year period)?

From your comment, however, I’m guessing that you mean it doesn’t matter to you if you are unpopular. It’s MP’s who decide who rules the country until you grant us an election (or it’s forced upon you as you’ve run out of time.)

Would it help if we all doff our caps to you as you walk by ? Perhaps, we could grow our hair a bit longer and tug our forelocks.

‘Why is that such a shocking idea ?’

Sometimes governments have to push measures through which may not be popular or resist measures which are. The alternative is government by tabloid opinion. Be sure you really want that.

‘If the people no longer wish you to be in power … why not ? Why do the people not have the power to sack MP’s ?’

We do. Every few years – five max.

Jim Baxter: “The alternative is government by tabloid opinion. Be sure you really want that.”

Ahh, the old – “beware what you wish for” scare. Tabloid media … next we’ll hear the “Daily Mail” mentioned.

I hardly think having tabloids is a reason to avoid democracy (in the literal sense of the word).
It may actually lead to better journalism (can’t get much worse after McBride era of journalism.)

Jim Baxter:”We do. Every few years – five max”
Yes, I already mentioned the flexi five year limit. A couple of times.
Whilst I may not know as much about Britain as particular MP’s (tug forelock) I still don’t understand your reasoning that the people shouldn’t be able to sack their MP.
Last time I looked I’m pretty certain we pay the salaries. Any other jobs with no termination conditions ?

Dear Triffid,

There might be a difference between tabloid media and tabloid opinion. Today you opinion gets made law. Tomorrow, mine does. The day after that, it’s some other nutty opinion

MPs are elected as our representatives, not our proxies.

… oh and, as for mentioning the limit a couple of times, yes, see if you can get your foliage round why it should be that way then.

There’s a good plant.

“It clearly doesn’t mitigate one’s disgust for it, but the war with Iraq was not illegal.

It would only have been illegal if a treaty had existed and been unilaterally abrogated.”

Lib, rubbish. You’re making this up as you go. Are you Blair per chance? Check out what we signed up for under the UN banner. We were not to attack any other country that was not itself attacking us. So you’re quite wrong.

We were already in talks at UN level, we were a member of the Security Council for heavens sake, and Blair walked away because he had to follow the biggest terrorist threat on the planet at the time – Bush – and do as he said. They rejected the democratic, legal way to deal with Iraq and chosen the illegal route. So you just keep posting drivel on this subject. For no matter how many times you post it, you still won’t be right about it.

Jo

I think perhaps your views, which are perfectly respectable, would carry more weight if you managed to make them without using words like ‘drivel’ and ‘rubbish’.

Nevertheless, before I leave this subject, I’d just say that the UN has no fully accepted, international legal authority in this area.

This is deeply unfortunate,I’d agree, but I’m afraid it remains the fact.