My guest post today, from Eric Joyce, the MP for Falkirk, tackles a subject which I know is close to the heart of many of my readers and commenters: the so-called “nanny state”, or as Eric more approriately calls it, “the new paternalism”. Enjoy. In fact, why not have a fag and a pint while you’re reading it?
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I’m the latest politician Tom’s asked to take some time out from being hated to pen a guest column for his legendary blog. I thought I’d take the opportunity to write about ‘the new paternalism’ and “prohibition-lite”. What? Well, it goes like this.
From September, tourist shops in Scotland won’t sell whisky miniatures any longer, on account of they’d have to get a liquor licence and that really won’t be worth their while. The same new licensing law (passed by Labour/Lib Dem, now actioned by the SNP) will ban the sale of alcohol from your local petrol filling station. Oh, and it’ll be unlawful to display wine at the fish counter at your local supermarket. This is all being done in the name of The War Against Alcohol Abuse (WAAA).
But wait! I checked the gifts counter at The Falkirk Wheel today – no sign at all of alcoholics queuing up with dolphin-embossed writing pads to ‘mask’ their purchase of 20 whisky miniatures, ready for consumption along the canal towpath. I also popped into Asda and couldn’t see a single shopper frothing at the mouth for a drink while perusing the evening’s fish options. And I have a hunch that there’s a reason cops sit outside pubs, not filling stations, at closing time. So what on earth is this risible cross-party legislation all about?
The answer, I think, lies in the imposition of prohibition-lite as part of the unchecked growth of a new professional-class paternalism every bit as socially unhealthy as smoking a roll-up while necking a bottle of cheap hooch is physically unhealthy. And the driving force is not politicians – of all parties – it’s the powerful professional lobbies and the influence they have on public opinion.
A significant point in the rise of the new paternalism came, I think, with the banning of smoking in adapted rooms in private clubs. That is, clubs aren’t allowed a room where people can smoke and clear their own glasses and where no-one but fellow smokers need go. This aspect of the otherwise sensible smoking legislation crossed a significant line – it banned an activity not because of the effect on others, but because it wasn’t healthy for the people who enjoyed it themselves. Here, the health argument took on an unmistakably moral tone. The new paternalists wanted to save people from themselves where they deemed ‘risk’ morally unacceptable. And they knew exactly who they were targeting. Now, once replete with that legal (yet counter-productive) victory, they’ve moved on to alcohol.
Usually, doctors or other professional lobbies get the ball rolling by making the rather obvious point that smoking, drinking too much and/or eating too many pies isn’t good for you. We hardly need doctors to tell us that, and of course once that’s been said they’re no more qualified than anyone to say what we should do about it. And it’s true, too. It is risky if your lifestyle involves any of those things and you should be encouraged to change – especially the smoking bit. Yet it’s equally true that if you climb in the unimaginatively-but-literally named “death zone”, or “solo” without ropes, or risk your spine in the scrum or your skull in a formula one car – basically do anything for fun which requires protective headgear – then your lifestyle is every bit as risky as the bloke who enjoys a port with his cigar after dinner. And the taxpayer picks up the tab, too, if you fall off: crash! Snap!
But the new paternalists aren’t talking about after-dinner port drinkers or climbers, are they? They’re targeting quite a different demographic. Minimum alcohol pricing, for example, won’t affect those who like a nice malt – it’ll only affect the less well-off who buy blended scotch for less than £11.50. Here, their “prohibition minus” takes the form of trying to price the less well-off out of the market “for their own good”. Indeed, maybe the less well off will reduce their consumption, although I think they’ll just spend more on alcohol or find substitutes. But your guess is as good as mine. Yet elsewhere, such as with fish counters and filling stations and gift shops, and banning the supermarket sale of alcohol to students and soldiers under 21, it’ll have no effect at all – it’s simply a kind of moral statement of the “something must be done” variety.
Actually, it isn’t that simple. Because it’s also a public statement of the desirability of prohibition-lite as an instrument of new paternalism. Its contemporary big brother, of course, is the after-expression of full prohibition still in place in “dry” counties in America. Yet the US experiment with prohibition failed for a reason. This was not at root because the black-market and attendant gangsterism filled the gap, but because it was inherently undemocratic to allow the better-off, who called for and passed the legislation, to use their better resources to consume alcohol legally while leaving the less well-off prosecuted for drinking boot-leg.
I’m not arguing here that there’s no place for morality in political debate. Nor, by the way, am I suggesting the inclusion of speed smoking or drinking in the 2012 Olympics, even if that might well help the UK’s medal tally (albeit the Russians would field a strong team too). But I am saying it’s important to recognise what’s going on with the new paternalists’ moral separation of “good lifestyle risk” and “bad lifestyle risk”, according to whether or not there is some kind of “noble”, “morally sound” physical endeavour involved. All that will lead to is bad and ineffective outcomes.
Ask yourself this; have you ever seen miniature abuse (I’m not talking the harming of smaller people, here)? Or watched someone neck a bottle of wine as they drove off from a filling station? Or gone mental in the aisles having had Pinot Grigio and a nice bit of haddock in the same field of vision? No, you say? How about folk smoking at home in front of the kids because they can’t do it at the bingo or social club now? Or people spending too much on alcohol because those who aren’t price sensitive think it’s a good idea to keep the prices high? Or independent garage owners of impeccable record losing their alcohol licences and possibly their livelihoods?
I went to see the unbelievably brilliant Moscow State Circus the other week. The central point of the entertainment was that the acrobats were often flying 50 ft above the ground without safety ropes or nets. These people were receiving rapturous applause for their inherently risky lifestyle. It seemed to me that a high proportion of the applauders were from precisely the price-sensitive demographic targeted by the new paternalists. Yet it was fairly clear, I think, that they would not have been applauding at all as rapturously had Aldo the Amazing sat down and showed us how quickly he could make rolly-ups out of half an ounce of Golden Virginia; or if Coco the Clown sought to mesmerise us with his ability to drink two litres of fortified wine while maintaining his one-legged balance on a tightrope. Holding an umbrella. That is to say, everyone manages risk in their lives, knows some things aren’t good for them and is open to education and change. It manifestly isn’t just the better-off. Yet the central feature of the new paternalism, virtually by definition, is that it’s patronising. It says some folk aren’t open to change so we’ll target them and make life difficult for them. This seems to me to be the apotheosis of bad legislation.
On the contrary, good legislation balances how people’s lives can be made better with a practical and democratic view of how people actually do live their lives. The new paternalists seek to upset that balance. The result is that they victimise the least well-off and encourage silliness of the variety I describe above.
So, what to do? Well, recently sheriffs in Aberdeen and Glasgow have savaged the new licensing legislation. Essentially, it’s in pieces owing to poor drafting and opportunistic political compromises. The Scottish Government will have to choose to let much of it fall or take it back to the Scottish Parliament and seek cross party support (whether or not it actually requires a vote) to pass “regulations” to change it. If you agree with me, write to your MSP and tell them you want your aunt to be able to pick up a bottle of sherry when she’s filling her car; to be able to note interesting wine suggestions at the fish counter; to be allowed to buy a miniature for your granny at the incredible Falkirk Wheel; to not be patronised by the new paternalists; to reject prohibition-lite.
And if you don’t agree with me, you should definitely write to Tom. It’s his blog, after all.














Monday 17 August 2009 at 9:18 am
Errr… it’s “Nanny State” (rather than nany).
Monday 17 August 2009 at 9:30 am
Just a typo. Now fixed.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 9:45 am
Well said!
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:09 am
Very well said, Mr Joyce – and thank you for voting against the smoking blanket ban in England and Wales.
I have already taken your advice and wrote to my own MP (Labour)some time ago. She firstly denied that the comprehensive ban was a breach of Labour’s manifesto promise (even though it quite clearly stated that it was in the highlighted paragraph of the manifesto which she helpfully enclosed) then advised me that a complete ban had been decided upon to ‘ease the burden on future taxpayers’.
I wonder if other MPs who voted for the ban were equally confused. They were certainly ill-advised that ETS represents such a danger that 25% of the population must be denied the right to socialise, in public, in comfort.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:11 am
We had a lot less of this sort of thing with the Tories. Why do you MPs not do something about then.
Less government, less interfearing in our private lives.
LESS LABOUR.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:23 am
Miniature abuse – hell yes ! Big style – quite a lot of it. Driving off necking a bottle of wine – again : Yes , more than once. Fish counter binge drinking no not really. What I’d like to see challenged is the idea that you have to drink alcohol to be normal. The M&S meal deals including wine for instance are not useful for non-drinkers.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 11:27 am
Absolutely nothing wrong with smoking or any other drug taking if it’s indulged in by consenting adults. I’m in favour of total legalisation. We can do what we like to ourselves so long as it doesn’t adversely affect others.
My objection is in being forced to share the habit. For instance,being near someone smoking in some public enclosed space.
Far worse than standing near someone quietly fixing…which wouldn’t intimately involve my lungs or bloodstream in an assault by a lethal substance.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 11:29 am
In principle a good blog, especially considering it came from an MP of the paternalist party.
You imply that a line was crossed with the blanket smoking ban.
I would say the line was crossed by allowing extremist lobby groups masquerading as charities, dictate legislation in the first place.
The government uses tax payer’s money to fund groups like ASH to lobby for the policies that set the ball rolling towards general prohibition.
The fact that you support smokers having to be separated from other folk, demonstrates that you have bought into the paternalism thought your blog intends to oppose.
The lobby groups who campaigned for the ban were in the main the members of the SCOTH committee that was meant to provide an objective view on the evidence of passive smoke harm.
The result being a foregone conclusion.
What do you think the results would have been if a tobacco company conducted the report?
That said the damage is done, and there does need to be an amendment at least for starters.
What’s more the smoking ban has served as a useful experiment for the paternalists.
The same tactics (‘passive drinking’ for one) are being used with alcohol. Only with lessons learned and techniques honed, similar restrictions could be in place within a much shorter timespan than it took with tobacco.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:07 pm
I am now waiting for a BBC2 docu-drama entitled The New Paternalists, where self-righteous members of the Victorian Temperance society stride amongst improbably clean streets and denounce the poor people who succumb to the evil vice of alcohol and tobacco.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:26 pm
This is a great article, Mr Joyce. That liberals in all parties have started talking about the proble
is cause for a little optimism.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:31 pm
A sensible post, gosh! There are _two_ labour MPs with some common sense. Who’d have thunk it?
However I have to ask, guys, this has happened almost entirely on your watch, whether you personally voted for or against the total smoking ban, what’s your excuse? Your party did it…
And I think AJ makes an important point that you didn’t specifically mention, although I guess to some extent it’s covered by ‘powerful professional lobbies’ – although I’d question the professionalism of people like Ash. They are nothing but fascists.
These people are the problem. Liam Donaldson and Ash etc. In fact most of the companies listed on the Fake Charities site. (Note I deliberately call them companies, I don’t consider them charities. IMO Charities are organizations that exist solely [or at least mostly] on contributions made by individuals).
And where do these people get the bulk of their funding?
Yep, Government.
So (you’re) government pays Ash money to lobby government to impose stricter and stricter anti smoking laws, against the wishes of a significant proportion of your voters.
So the fix is simple. Let these companies go back to being real charities. Stop giving them OUR TAXES. Let the public choose which charities to give our money to, and then see how much lobbying Ash can afford.
If only there was a vaccine against Liam Donaldson…
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:34 pm
In my opinion a very stylish and witty blog. Without wishing to offend Tom, it’d be great to read more of your stuff, Eric. A couple of points though?
The smoking ban adversely affects the health of the children of smokers who can no longer play bingo and smoke? Eh?
Isn’t your concern here just a tad, paternalistic? What about those who work in Bingo centres are their lungs of less value than those of the abandoned children which itself raises another point at the risk of seeming very paternalistic indeed shouldn’t we all be more concerned about the neglect of children whose parents abandon them to play bingo than the parents right to smoke and play bingo at the same time?
By the way have just returned from my ‘homecoming’ holiday in both of your wonderful constituencies.
Highlight for my son included seeing the Dr Who exhibition at Kelvingrove.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:47 pm
This is an excellent post.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:51 pm
Could someone please explain why you
can still smoke in foundries
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:53 pm
The government funded lobby group propaganda has worked its magic hasnt it!
Even someone liberal enough to advocate legalisation of drugs still thinks that passive smoke is a significant health risk. I could tear the entire argument apart. but instead will suggest that smoking should be allowed where there is a choice to permit/enter/work within, and that air management technology negates the concerns of those that forget the basic principle of toxicology.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 12:56 pm
Absolutely agree with this. Not enough of us in the Labour Party making this kind of argument.
We need to stop believing that just because we disapprove of something doesn’t necessarily mean it should be illegal. And silliness like this makes good people dislike us.
RJT
Monday 17 August 2009 at 1:36 pm
Some revealing facts about the “prohibitionists”, the public have the right to know.
By Patrick Basham
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/7262/
By Chris Snowdon
http://www.velvetgloveironfist.com/darkmarket_display_ban.php
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/FreedomOfInformation/Freedomofinformationpublicationschemefeedback/FOIreleases/DH_101835
Monday 17 August 2009 at 1:55 pm
This post and some of Tom’s serve to remind us that, generally, politicians are human beings too. The mystery, therefore, is that you have allowed your party and thus our country to be run by:
a) Government-funded ‘charities’ whose main/only purpose is ‘astroturfing’, i.e. creating fake grass roots support to sell ideas* to the public.
*i.e. instil fear and/or guilt, usually.
b) Big Pharma, who seem to have the ability to make the government buy millions of flu shots that haven’t even been properly tested.
Big Pharma, whose contraception and STD divisions are seeing boom times thanks to New Labour policy.
c) Traitors, who have used mass immigration to engineer the destruction of our way of life; have created a highly objectionable system of alleged ‘equality’ and ‘rights’ which have acted as a divide and rule mechanism; have dumbed down education to dumb down future society for easier control.
d) The US Administration.
e) The EU.
f) Any global organisation to do with population reduction or environmentalism.
g) Fear.
The “War on Terror” is being used as an excuse to restrict everyone. Environmental issues are used to restrict and tax us. Health and safety issues are used to prevent people meeting together – like the smoking ban; public events cancelled due to fear of being sued. There’s that word, ‘fear’, again. It’s how we’re being manipulated and made to comply.
What is happening is that the people of this country, indeed the world, are being bossed around to prepare us for enslavement into a global system.
The fact is that Eric Joyce and Tom Harris don’t really control anything at all, because the New Labour leadership dances to the tune of a global elite.
This is the reason you had to renege on your promise to hold a referendum on the EU Constitution/Treaty because the elite knew we’d vote contrary to their dream of a new ‘Roman Empire’ as a bloc of a unified global system of government.
It’s why people like Peter Mandelson get to make decisions and not the Harris’s and Joyces.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 2:07 pm
The UK is the leading nation in prohibition surpassing Russia and China. This is why The International Coalition Against Prohibition was formed and now boasts a global network of member organisations.
Soon we will launch the Brussels Declaration on Scientific Integrity and will request that all polititians become signatories to the document (failure to do so will obviously raise questions on political moral judgement)http://www.data-yard.net/brussels_speeches/brussels_declaration_announcement_presentation.pdf
Monday 17 August 2009 at 2:18 pm
RJT You only have to visit working men’s clubs(those that are still open) to see Labour members and voters deserting the party in droves because their lifestyle choices are restricted by the very party meant to represent them. A recent survey of the clubs showed that over 80% no longer trusted the Labour government!John Reid had fought against this, but he was replaced by Patricia Hewitt in the DoH. A middle -class holier than thou doo-gooder, who brought in the ban and now has a directorship with a pharma company,her reward for coercing people onto their nicotine products.
What is the point of having better working conditions, longer holidays, higher living standards, an end to a system based on privilege for the few, if life is a prolonged proscribed mix of dullness and sterile risk aversion?
Monday 17 August 2009 at 2:28 pm
Fringe point, but the thing that really annoys me is the applicability of the smoking ban to shisha bars. Thanks to water filtration, shisha smoke is practically tar-free and low in nicotine. the vast bulk of the smoke is produced at inhalation, it’s not so much ‘free burning’. This means that danger from passive smoking also becomes pretty much a non-started.
Shisha bars have special importance to many larger muslim communities as they provide a focal point for people to chat, much in a similar way that the pub does for non-muslims and liberal muslims.
The whole arrangment as it stands is, in my view, a bit much.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 2:31 pm
It’s certainly faintly refreshing to see an MP – and a Labour MP, no less – addressing the problem of the nanny state that has been constructed over the past 12 years very largely by, er, Labour MPs.
The points Eric Joyce makes are perfectly good as far as they go, but they don’t go far enough. It’s perfectly obvious, for example, that he believes all the various health scares, when he makes
the rather obvious point that smoking, drinking too much and/or eating too many pies isn’t good for you.
Aren’t they? And is it ‘obvious’? This is where the problem starts, with people believing this sort of nonsense, just because irresponsible doctors like Sir Liam Donaldson say so, and people don’t have the common sense to question them. Why, if the World Cancer Research Fund were to declare ham and other processed meats to be a cancer risk, they’d believe that too, and ban that as well.
The problem starts once these health fascists are allowed to get a foot in the door with any of their exaggerated, fear-mongering claims. They should be thrown out, the whole lot of them. ASH, CRUK, BHF, Liam Donaldson and all.
Nor is it that it’s ‘prohibition-lite’. It’s plain simple prohibition, and it is enormously destructive. The smoking ban isn’t just driving pubs out of existence, but is destroying communities, and costing lives. Like that of Lawrence Walker. And none of it is reported a news media whose sole task seems to be to stoke up fear about smoking, drinking, eating, avian flu, swine flu, global warming, terrorism, etc, etc, without a care in the world of what the consequences are in real people’s lives.
It’s got to stop. It can’t go on like this. But I don’t see the Labour party, or any other major party, seriously addressing the rising pandemonium, the torrent of fear, and the tide of ill-considered legislation that flows from it. It just gets worse and worse every day.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 2:47 pm
People have to be allowed to kill themselves if they wish…whether at Dignitas or with tobacco tars, or opiates or alcohol.
It’s their life. And if things get too painful at my own end I’ll certainly join them.
Just don’t force me to join the club when I don’t wish to.
Inject nicotine and other drugs by all means.
But smoke somewhere where your dangerous smoke stays away from my lungs.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 3:44 pm
“I’m the latest politician Tom’s asked to take some time out from being hated to pen a guest column for his legendary blog.”
My first thought on reading this was: It’s never really worked that way for Tom.
Then I read the article. Brilliant.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 4:08 pm
Miller 2.0
Especially for you
http://kamcha.googlepages.com/Chaouachi_ETS_Tribute_Gian_Turci_ETS.pdf
Monday 17 August 2009 at 4:17 pm
Liberanos
No one would be forced to enter a smoking room, smoking pub,or smoking club.Why do you even suggest you would ever be forced? You sound like you have been exposed to dangerous levels of propaganda. And there is no safe level on anti-smoking hate speech.
Tobacco smoke is 96% water vapour. The feared ‘carcinogenic’ chemicals are present in miniscule levels and are present in indoor air regardless of smoking. I think you are confusing a smell you dont like with danger.
And air management technology can make air cleaner than outside, and can quite easily be regulated to a specific standard, just to keep the risk-averse happy.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 4:29 pm
@Liberanos
Might I suggest that you not frequent places that people smoke in?
You do not have an automatic right to infringe on someone elses rights.
If enough people had wanted no smoking bars they would have occured. After all, money talks.
I do remember Glasgow having a no smoking bar years before the ban, the Maltman if I recollect correctly. No smoking upstairs and a well ventilated smoking bar down stairs. The only one I ever came across.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 4:40 pm
To learn the truth regarding second hand smoke and the prohibition movement why not visit:
http://www.antiprohibition.org/ticap_pages.php?q=12
Yes, this was a Conference that even the EU attempted to ban, note attempted as they were unsuccessful
Monday 17 August 2009 at 5:03 pm
Liberanos: Inject nicotine and other drugs by all means.
People don’t shoot up nicotine. There’s no street value for it, as tabacologiste Professor Pierre Molimard has remarked.
There was one mad, antismoking doctor – Lennox Johnston – who did that for a while. But he was just another sad, mad, antismoking doctor.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 5:09 pm
Second hand smoke does kill and it’s not fair on workers to be exposed to it in the workplace. As a Labour MP, I expected you to have a stronger commitment to safer working environments Eric. I imagine you support other legislation the Government’s passed on other workplace hazards.
The idea that there can be a sealed room for smokers to serve themselves in pubs was unworkable practically speaking and ineffective on health grounds. Hardly a simple common sense solution Eric!
All this was debated very thoroughly in Scotland before the ban was introduced in 2006. Frankly bringing it up once more just suggests you missed the debate the first time round.
The smoking ban has been one of the outstanding contributions from Scottish Labour since 1999. I disagree with the casual way you link tobacco control with policy on alcohol and fat foods. Tobacco is unique in its addictiveness and health consequences and it needs policy making that responds to the challenge it poses in a similarly unique way.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 5:31 pm
Gerry
To keep this simple
(a) The European Commission recently defended a Court Action when the Court ruled in their favour in the K Labat v Commission of the European Communities(01) (Case F-77/07) when the pursuer claimed that her husband had died as a result of Second Hand Smoke at his workplace while employed by the Commission.
(b) The Health & Safety Executive clearly state within their document OC255/15(02) “ In essence, HSE cannot produce epidemiological evidence to link levels of exposure to SHS to the raised risk of contracting specific diseases” (see Section 9 of the document)
(c) The Health Department Analytical Services Division, Edinburgh cannot provide any evidence that Second Hand Smoke has been a contributory factor to any death in Scotland prior to the introduction of the Smoking Ban or afterwards.
(d) Many Medical Professionals(03) and Scientists(04) globally will testify that there is no scientific evidence to show second hand smoke is a danger to health.
(01) Official Journal of the European Union
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:079:0035:0035:EN:PDF
(02) Health & Safety Executive http://wispofsmoke.net/PDFs/255_15.pdf
(03) Dr Jerome Arnett Jr. MD Heartland Institute http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/23399/Scientific_Evidence_Shows_Secondhand_Smoke_Is_No_Danger.html
(04) Dr Gio Gori The ETS Fraud http://www.data-yard.net/brussels_speeches/gori.pdf?b1b7cb08
Monday 17 August 2009 at 5:46 pm
Gerry
Putting it bluntly the then Labour Administration lied to the nation.
I have a video evidence of Andy Kerr (STV 26th March 2006) claiming that there was 4000 carcinogens in ETS when in actual fact there are 65 of which 7 are human and the remainder rodent, harmless to humans and found in such everyday items as coffee and cabbage leaves.
Why is it that the Scottish Government is frightened to hold a review of the Smoking Ban and its evidence when England will hold one in 2010.. simple answer they know that they lied to the nation and would be found out.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 5:49 pm
Gerry, whichever one you are, far from miss The Bill I sat on the Health Bill Committee where the UK government (Patricia Hewit and Caroline Flint) proposed to allow membership-clubs smoking rooms. That was then amended at third reading, an amendment I voted against. I’ve no idea if you have a local club, sounds like you don’t with your daft ‘impractical’ point. I do have a Labour club and I can tell you it’s a piece of pie to have a prepared room set aside into which members take their drinks, smoke, then return their drinks to the counter. I’m all for improving health, I hope you’ll accept, but also for letting make their own choices when it comes to consuming legal substances.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 6:03 pm
@Gerry that’s a massive generalisation, particularly as the ban extends to uses where Tobacco is not particularly addictive (I’m thinking smoking cigars in clubs). You will also notice that the article was related mainly to smoking in social, not employment environments. You’ve also made massive generalisations about sealed rooms.
I don’t particularly enjoy second-hand cigarette smoke, but that doesn’t mean I like the ban.
@Liberanos, I’d much rather stand next to a smoker than someone violent and aggressive from too much alcohol, out of his head on crack, or boorish from cocaine use.
And finally, if I’m in Glasgow and want to get drunk, my first port of call is never going to be the fish counter of the local supermarket unless I manage the hitherto-unachieved feat of being barred from all of its licenced establishments.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 6:06 pm
[...] Two very good blog posts on why we should ban the phrase “it ought to be banned“, and on a creeping paternalism. [...]
Monday 17 August 2009 at 6:13 pm
Eric. I have read in the minutes that Patricia Hewitt suggested a ’smoking carriage’. I have asked several times, to no avail, what is the meaning of the term ’smoking carriage’. Maybe you can finally put me out of my misery.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 7:00 pm
Excellent post. Maybe Eric should start his own blog!
Monday 17 August 2009 at 7:18 pm
Minutes of the Scottish Ministerial Working Group on Tobacco Control, see the comments by:-
Govt
Trade Bodies
Local Govt
Charities?
Can’t wait for publication of the next minutes, should be even more interesting.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2008meetings/minutesjanuary2008
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2007meetings/minutesjanuary2007
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2007meetings/minutesoctober2007
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2006meetings/minutesjune2006
Monday 17 August 2009 at 7:38 pm
Minutes of the Scottish Ministerial Working Group on Tobacco Control.
Can’t wait till the next episode.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2008meetings/minutesjanuary2008
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2007meetings/minutesjanuary2007
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2007meetings/minutesoctober2007
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/2006meetings/minutesjune2006
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/tcwg2005meetings/minutesnovember2005
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/health/Tobacco/MeasuringProgress/tobaccowg/minutes/tcwg2005meetings/minutesmay2005
Monday 17 August 2009 at 7:43 pm
Gerry & Liberanos – ETS does not pose a danger to your health. The research is utterly disreputable and presented in such a way to amount to no more than propaganda. The Government ought to be taken to task for running the disgraceful ad campaign which suggested that smokers are little better than murderers but there appears to be no mechanism for so doing.
If you wish to understand why it’s come about, you might like to ponder the relationship between the DOH, ASH/CRUK/BHF and the pharmaceutical industry and also the politics of research funding.
You must also be aware that there is a principle at stake: if you think that government properly has a paternalistic role to play then you must be prepared to relinquish your autonomy; if you’re not prepared to do that then you must tolerate other people’s behaviours. Once upon a time such issues were dealt with by good manners and give and take and the more politicians legislate to manipulate behaviour, the less tolerant and well-mannered we become. Eventually we become so brutish and unable to think for ourselves that we welcome others taking responsibility for us. Is that what you want as rational, autonomous human beings?
Monday 17 August 2009 at 7:59 pm
EJD:
Nice links. Noticed that FoI Response 42
(link below) involves the Scottish Government, Tobacco Control Unit at St Andrew’s House, EDINBURGH.
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/FreedomOfInformation/Freedomofinformationpublicationschemefeedback/FOIreleases/DH_101835
Monday 17 August 2009 at 8:07 pm
This from the Party of the nanny state, hell-bent on creating a state that can regularly intrude into peoples lives at will;
ID Cards
Smoking ban
ASBOs (only Labour could invent a law that imposes jail sentences for ANYTHING the state decides is “antisocial”)
&c
&c
If you’re such an ardent proponent of liberty may I humbly suggest you quit the Labour party government immediately.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 8:22 pm
Now, once replete with that legal (yet counter-productive) victory, they’ve moved on to alcohol.
And boy did we try to tell CAMRA, the BBPA etc. – they didn’t listen, of course, and are now fighting exactly the same methods that were thrown at smokers. At first it was fun to say ‘I told you so’ as the beer fans struggled under the increased weight of opprobrium set upon them after the smoking issue was ‘won’ (fun because they didn’t so much as lift a finger for their smoking colleagues or customers). But after a while it’s rather boring being proven right so very often (mrginal utility I think they call it).
Conversely, those who have suffered from illiberal bans are now rallying round to add their voice to those who enjoy alcohol. Moral high ground for the pro-choice lobby? I think so.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 8:27 pm
You’ve trashed my social life for 2 years, even if you ammend the ban, I will not forget what you promised in your 2005 manifesto, and what you did.
Regards.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 8:27 pm
@Gerry “The idea that there can be a sealed room for smokers to serve themselves in pubs was unworkable practically speaking and ineffective on health grounds. Hardly a simple common sense solution Eric!”
Did you actually read the article, Gerry? Or were you just sent here by a Google alert or something?
‘Ineffective on health grounds’? That was the entire distorted logic which Mr Joyce was arguing against. It’s not up to you whether someone chooses to smoke when not in your presence, it is entirely up to them. Understand? Jeez.
And would you care to expand on why such a separate room is not workable? Quite ridiculous.
Admit it. You just don’t like other people doing what you wouldn’t do yourself. There’s a word for people who think like that.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 8:33 pm
a room where people can smoke and clear their own glasses and where no-one but fellow smokers need go
*****************************************
Sorry, scout, but there are juuuuuuust a few flaws in that bright idea.
AJ
John Reid had fought against this, but he was replaced by Patricia Hewitt in the DoH.
Ah yes, because John Reid and all of Old Labour worship at the altar of that semi-mythical beast, ‘The Wurrrkin’ Man’
hence the truly pathetic attempt to exempt Labour clubs from the law of the land.
And then Dozy Pat, the Secretary of State for Health FFS said exempting Wurrrkin’ Mens Clubs from the smoking ban was ‘a finely balanced argument’.
Has there ever been a quote unquote government more in need of being consigned to the forgotten annals of history than this one.
I think not.
PS I run smoking cure sessions myself if anyone’s interested. I take a job lot of the respiratorally challenged stinkers for a fast jog to the top of a 2,000 ft hill near me.
It’s tough on ‘em, but my cattle prod works wonders.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 8:42 pm
Eric
Time that you and your pals north of the border put a stop to thishttp://www.ayradvertiser.com/news/roundup/articles/2009/08/14/390532-youre-on-ciggiecam/
Monday 17 August 2009 at 9:13 pm
Sheila Duffy of ASH Scotland put in her place by the Shadow Minister for Public Health at the Scottish Parliament.
http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Smoke-screen.5558750.jp
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:03 pm
The World Health Organization has put out the World Tobacco Framework which most countries have signed up for including the UK. I quote: “The WHO FCTC was developed in response to the globalization of the tobacco epidemic and is an evidence-based treaty that reaffirms the right of all people to the highest standard of health.”
The WHO now has turned to drinkers and you can look forward to be treated in the same denormalised and insulting manner. Please note how many of you die every year, “needlessly”, and how lurid estimates of how many people die from “passive drinking.” We did warn you.
“GENEVA (Reuters) – The World Health Organization (WHO) is set to draw up a global strategy to tackle youth binge drinking and other forms of harmful alcohol consumption blamed for 2.3 million deaths a year, officials said on Thursday”
“The harmful use of alcohol causes serious public health problems,” said Dr. Ala Alwan, WHO assistant director-general for non-communicable diseases and mental health.
The health ministers said the WHO strategy to reduce harmful use of alcohol should be “based on all available evidence and existing best practices…taking into account different national, religious and cultural contexts.”
The blueprint, to be presented in two years, should include a set of recommended national measures for states. These could cover guidance on the marketing, pricing, and distribution of alcoholic drinks and public awareness campaigns.
In 2003, WHO clinched the first global public health treaty which targeted tobacco through stronger warnings on cigarette packages and limits on advertising and sponsorship. A year later it declared war on poor diets blamed for rising obesity.
Alcohol causes 2.3 million premature deaths worldwide each year, accounting for 3.7 percent of global mortality, WHO says. Harmful drinking is also linked to traffic accidents, suicides, crime, violence, unemployment and absenteeism.”
http://www.canada.com/topics/bod…d0- f3a28b88c344
WHO considers global war on alcohol abuse
http://www.newscientist.com/arti…ohol- abuse.html
“The ‘passive effects’ of alcohol misuse are catastrophic – rape, sexual assault, domestic and other violence, drunk driving and street disorder – alcohol affects thousands more innocent victims than passive smoking”
http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/profe…es/ Alcohol.aspx
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:08 pm
Hey Liberanos
Were you a regular at all 59,000 pubs
or is it some deep concern for your
fellow man which inspires your words
of total moral indignation at the
working class enjoying themselves.
Please let us know your car’s engine
size and we will supply the toxic output.
If not , buzz off ,go and collect your
30 silver pieces and find a tree
Ex Labour/Shop Steward with a bus pass
Voltaire’s gardener
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:09 pm
jonathan campbell
You’ve trashed my social life for 2 years,
*********************************************
Awwww, widdums.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:36 pm
AJ. Nice conspiracy theory.
Smoking ban in public places is eminently sensible because smoking around others’ directly affects them. Good Labour policy which I support. Smoking ‘carriages’ on the other hand is a slightly different matter. Which is exactly what Eric said.
My support for Eric’s post was broader than this point though.
RJT
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:39 pm
Has anyone else noticed
the similarity between Mr Joyce and Harry Enfield?
Are they closely related?
Monday 17 August 2009 at 10:41 pm
Exposing the truth about the so called deaths caused by second hand smoke … this time in France. As you will see,the figures do not add up
http://cagecanada.homestead.com/analysecritiquemolimard.html
But at least this scientist is honest enough to expose the flaws in the study
Monday 17 August 2009 at 11:04 pm
RJT “AJ. Nice conspiracy theory.”
What a clever, comprehensive, qualified dissection of my post.
I see you have thoroughly researched the topic and have a full understanding of the issue. Ever thought of a career in politics?
Or perhaps a health charity.
Both attract Plenty of tax payers money to do with as you wish.
Monday 17 August 2009 at 11:21 pm
Is there an election looming?
Lift the leopards tail
Monday 17 August 2009 at 11:40 pm
Nope, still hated. Here is why:
You have picked on possibly the only facet of the Nanny State which disproportionately affects Labour voters, i.e. people who do not work for a living and expect to be able to destroy their lives by over-eating, over-drinking, and smoking their “social” away – The Party’s traditional grass roots. So it’s a soft target for a start.
The real Nanny State is the one which believes the people are there to serve it and not the other way around. The horrendous misuse of the RIPA regulations springs to mind and myriad other things. Governance has become an out-of-control monster that consumes those who prop up the economy and protects those who sponge off it.
Until politicians of all colours get it into their hateful pin-like heads that we want to be left alone, apart from the threat of invasion and mass public disorder, and we do not take kindly to being socially engineered to the extent we now are, I am afraid you will all be on Santa’s naughty list as far as I am concerned.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 12:47 am
Fact:
In 1975, the World Health Organisation stated that to reduce smoking – quote:
“It would be essential to foster an atmosphere where it was perceived that active smokers could injure those around
them”
Fact:
Scientists Johnstone & Finch (2006) stated – quote:
“Rejection of consistent results from controlled trials and the acceptance of far inferior data would not be
countenanced in any other area of medical science. But where smoking and health are being considered this debasement of science is commonplace and passes without comment”
Fact:
Stated in a parliamentary publication – quote:
“Given the evidence about the impact of passive smoking, we are concerned that the decision to ban smoking in public places may represent a dispropotionate response to a relatively minor health concern. It may be that the unstated objective of the policy is to encourage a reduction in active smoking by indirect means. This may well be a desireable policy objective, but if it is the policy objective, it should have been clearly stated.”
Many may not like the smell of tobacco, but it is no reason to spread lies and untruths, label smokers as murderers, cause thousands of job losses, cause deaths, split communities etc, the list goes on and on, and then to create a multi-million pound industry on it.
The propaganda that is spewed out via tax-payer funded lobby groups against the very tax-payers that fund them, utterly disgusts me. I thought that denormalisation techniques were left behind in the last century – obviously not.
I’m very enlightened to see labour MPs bringing this subject up as I haven’t voted for them since this ban was introduced.
This ban has to be amended and the zealots (they’re as bad as terrorists in my eyes) left behind.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 2:07 am
Very amusing.
But pretty much par for the course. Criticisms but no solutions. No solutions to Scotland’s serious alcohol, cancer and heart disease problems. Only criticisms of a parliament where Messrs Joyce and Harris have no vote. Where they took no part in the parliamentary debates, but where overwhelming cross-party support meant moving forward on this issue.
Yes there are issues with some of the legislation, and implementation. These can still be sorted. But in essence, the drug alcohol has decreased in price in real terms in the last ten years, and alcohol-related problems have increased.
One of the main objectives of the legislation was to reduce impulse purchases of alcohol. So if you go to fill your car up with petrol, you won’t be tempted to buy a crate of cider and have a binge. Now if you then want to go to the supermarket and buy a crate, then that’s your choice, but it will be a considered choice and not a spur-of-the-moment thing.
So Eric, I agree with some of the ‘nanny’, or ‘paternalistic’ stuff, or whatever soundbite you want to use, but don’t just snipe from the sidelines on a policy matter for Holyrood, come up with some solutions of your own. After all, you do work for the ‘Nanny-State’ party.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 2:48 am
“But the new paternalists aren’t talking about after-dinner port drinkers or climbers, are they?”
Not yet. But for those of us old enough to remember the 1970’s when the anti-smoking movement began to make significant headway, this is EXACTLY how they began. Softly, softly, catchee monkey, as they say.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 4:29 am
[...] her political virginity.6. Paul Goodman says Hannan may be an irritant but he is indispensable.7. Eric Joyce MP on the new paternalism.8. Letters From a Tory thinks Vince Cable has made a fool of himself.9. [...]
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 10:32 am
@timbone
The general idea was to have smoking-only public places. I remember PH’s quaint use of carriage – can’t remember if she was talking about trains or not. If she was, perhaps the plan was for the train companies to hire ex-SAS tickets collectors (or comboys, like in the films) to climb out at the ’smoking carriage’ and come in the other side. Mind you, then he wouldn’t be checking the tickets and all the non-smoking non-ticket holders would climb in there too.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 11:04 am
The war on drugs simply has expanded it’s wildly popular and highly successful marketing campaign.
Prohibition not ‘new’ paternalism, just the basic old nannyism that keeps the mafia and the prohibition lobby in business. And now the mafia’s commercial offerings will be expanded from drugs and prostitution into alcohol and light bulbs, well, there are your much longed for green shoots to the road of economic recovery!
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 11:21 am
Eric
Anyone has has researched the smoking issue beyond the SCoTH report knows that passive smoke is not a health threat and as Caroline Flint when health minister suggested “Given the evidence about the impact of passive smoking, we are concerned that the decision to ban smoking in public places may represent a dispropotionate response to a relatively minor health concern”.
But may i suggest a solution to you. An INDEPENDENT(No Health charities, no pharmaceutical interests, no tobacco company interests) be conducted into the evidence and indeed toxicology of passive smoke. In the meantime a private members bill be table to amend the ban to allow smoking in rooms/venues where a regulated air quality standard is met by the proprietor. It is quite a simple relatively inexpensive technological solution, that would provide smokers with sociable places to partake in a heavily taxed legal product in comfort, and nobody need be exposed to smoke or go home smelling of smoke.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 12:00 pm
‘I run smoking cure sessions myself if anyone’s interested. I take a job lot of the respiratorally challenged stinkers for a fast jog to the top of a 2,000 ft hill near me.
It’s tough on ‘em, but my cattle prod works wonders.’
I’m definitely interested in this Sammy. Have you got a web site with details of prices, location, available dates etc?
Cheers
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 12:30 pm
The Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health submitted their report to Sir Liam Donaldson in November 2004. It was hugely influential in persuading MPs to bring in the ban, as it seems a majority, quite wrongly believe passive smoking as health hazard.
The make up of the committee, who numbered 16, is thus and I have included a link below.
Two members of ASH
Two members of the WHO
Five who were Labour Party members
Eight had received funding from pharmaceutical companies.
Only four out of sixteen had no real conflicts of interest.
It is my sincere opinion that this was a biased, possibly politically motivated report with only one outcome.
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@ab/documents/digitalasset/dh_098507.pdf
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 12:30 pm
Sammy:
I can only assume that you are at heart, anti-choice. Like it or not my social life contributes to my quality of life, and I cannot think of any way that I have benefited from government policy over the last 12 years, as they seem to favour specific client groups, at the cost of any other party they fancy scr&%wing over.
You can ‘Aww diddums’ all you like, but when you say one thing and do another, the people who have lost out, are entitled to be pissed off.
Regards,
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 12:36 pm
The TRUTH about Tobacco Control.
http://www.tobaccocontrolintegrity.com/
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 1:31 pm
The flaws in the report are all too easily to critique for those who taken the trouble to read it. Virtualy all SHS studies end up with a statisically insignificant figures of less than 2.00 and the average is 1.2. If you kept humans in cages in identical environments for a 30 year period, half exposed to SHS and the other not then you could draw proper conclusions.
When you are doing epidemiological studies, especially in uncontrolled populations there are so many different aspects that scientists could not include, or had not thought of. These are called “Confounding Factors.” Most include diet, occupation, age, and exercise. In a letter from a world renoun epidemiologist said that exposure to pollution is not included in most. Also in the British Medical Journal from August 4th 2009 it has been discovered that “Sexual habits rather than smoking may predict survival from throat and mouth cancers.” It is also by a factor 5.0, statistically very significant. It may well be applicable to lung cancer too.
Most lung cancer studies go into hospitals and interview lung cancer patients and ask them about what kind of exposure to SHS they have. Most non smokers tend to exaggerate their exposure and is referred to as “recall bias.”
Even the SCOTH document says on page 9, Section 3, 1st paragraph:
“In most studies considered individually the observed odds ratios failed to reach statistical significance.”
Also my last point is, especially these days where smoking is “denormalised” by state sanction, people either fib, downplay how much they smoke or fib again when they gave up. This is call “misclassification.” The Oxford Educated Statistician Peter Lee has calculated that the figures are between 2%-20%. The figure of 20% was obtained from Asian women via cotine tests and Asian women are particularly stigmatised for smoking. However I have worked out that a misclassification of 3% would nulify every SHS study although still remaining protectively non significant.
My provenance for this is er, page 15 of SCOTH.
In conclusion how SCOTH scientifically could of come to its conclusions beggars belief. I can only assume it was in my original assertion politically motivated. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they were not looking for additional funding and expenses from pharmaceutical companies.
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_4101475.pdf
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/339/aug04_1/b3140
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 2:26 pm
I hope I am not boring you too much to death but my final word on the SCOTH Committee.
Being the sad person I am in the process of reading all of the 70 reports cited in the document, but I am familiar with a number of them, i.e. two of the three largest SHS studies conducted. And yes I am about to say including the World Health Organization study, and of course the longest, largest and comprehensive study ever done by Professors Enstrom and Kabat. If you visit the SCOTH report it is Adobe page 20 and number page 15 of SCOTH. The first, WHO is number 13 amd Enstrom/Kabat number 20.
The WHO was published in 1998 and was headed by Professor Boffetta and the WHO did their best to suppress it and I quote:
“The research compared 650 lung cancer patients with 1,542 healthy people. It looked at people who were married to smokers, worked with smokers, both worked and were married to smokers, and those who grew up with smokers. The results are consistent with there being no additional risk for a person living or working with a smoker and could be consistent with passive smoke having a protective effect against lung cancer.”
I have many times quoted the Enstrom/Kabat 38 year, 118,000 person, peer reviewed study but those who have not read its conclusions here they are. Also can I confirm that the data was provided by the anti smoking organisation the American Cancer Society (ACS). Funding was 90% provided by ACS and the Tobacco Related Disease Research Program, (TRDRP) again anti smoking provided 5%. The study began in 1960 and by 1997 Enstrom/Kabat had nearly collated their results. Alas for the anti smokers it had come up with all the “wrong results.” Cynically funding was abruptly stopped and the last year was funded by the tobacco funded Center for Indoor Air Research organisation. They paid only for the publication costs on the basis that they did not have sight of the results.
“Results For participants followed from 1960 until 1998 the age adjusted relative risk (95% confidence interval) for never smokers married to ever smokers compared with never smokers married to never smokers was 0.94 (0.85 to 1.05) for coronary heart disease, 0.75 (0.42 to 1.35) for lung cancer, and 1.27 (0.78 to 2.08) for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease among 9619 men, and 1.01 (0.94 to 1.08), 0.99 (0.72 to 1.37), and 1.13 (0.80 to 1.58), respectively, among 25 942 women. No significant associations were found for current or former exposure to environmental tobacco smoke before or after adjusting for seven confounders and before or after excluding participants with pre-existing disease. No significant associations were found during the shorter follow up periods of 1960-5, 1966-72, 1973-85, and 1973-98.
Conclusions The results do not support a causal relation between environmental tobacco smoke and tobacco related mortality, although they do not rule out a small effect. The association between exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and coronary heart disease and lung cancer may be considerably weaker than generally believed.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/788186/posts
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/326/7398/1057
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 2:53 pm
@andrewbod
As I hope my comments above have made clear, I was intimately involved in the smoking legislation for that large part of the UK which is not Scotland, and you may have spotted that Tom’s blog is read all over the place. But, to tell you the truth, I hardly think that matters. The main thing, I guess, is that the debate is essentially philosphical and applies across the UK, and elsewhere for that matter. I don’t agree with your presumption that prohibition-lite will alter behaviours – it will simply give a bad name to attempts to change behaviours. And, more to the point, it inserts politicians into the fine grain of people’s lives; and people resent that, I think.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 3:21 pm
The Government and its Agencies should be followed the example set by US President Barack Obama(14) who has made his intentions clear by stating “Science and the scientific process must inform and guide decisions of my Administration on a wide range of issues, including improvement of public health, protection of the environment, increased efficiency in the use of energy and other resources, mitigation of the threat of climate change, and protection of national security.”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Memorandum-for-the-Heads-of-Executive-Departments-and-Agencies-3-9-09/
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 3:31 pm
So this means Obama will remove all of his fume-filled public to the countryside does it? Why doesn’t this rabble of a govt give us a real health report………how dangerous to long term health is your location? Perhaps he will evacuate New York.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 4:11 pm
I love the addicts’ reasoning!
If you don’t want to inhale my smoke, don’t go anywhere I am or have been. If you do and complain, you’re simply restricting my freedom.
So,I go to a really nice restaurant and take with me an old and mighty ghetto blaster, which I play with shattering volume right through the meal.
To those who complain, I simply say I’m addicted to noise and need a harmless fix from time to time. If they don’t like it,they should stay away from that restaurant. To forbid my playing would be a gross intrusion on my liberty. Their liberty, naturally, is not relevant.
And as for those who cling desperately to the minuscule possibility that second hand smoke is not harmful, I suggest they contact British American Tobacco and Philip Morris, who have finally accepted that, as well as an annoyance factor, there is indeed a health risk in second hand smoke. They’ve called for completely sealed rooms with incredibly high standards of air conditioning, accepting the public’s right to breathe smokeless air.
If nicotine could be injected, I wouldn’t give a damn. I don’t think anyone should. It’s not their business. Inject away…along with heroin or anything else. Your choice.
But that’s not the case when the drug administration is through the lungs. Everyone nearby joins in. It’s not nice and it’s not fair.
And it’s not safe.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 7:57 pm
Liberanos – Firstly, we now have a generation which is the most long-lived in history. Many are smokers of many years and the rest have been exposed to SHS for prolonged and frequent periods for most of their lives. If SHS is dangerous how can this be so? If SHS is dangerous then how much more so must active smoking be yet smokers are outliving previous generations. If you can’t trust your common sense then do look at the research which shows that the harm from SHS is quite definitely miniscule, so miniscule that, in fact, the researchers have had to resort to all kinds of tricks to try and make a case. You’ll at least do yourself a favour by no longer having a fit of the vapours whenever you detect a whiff of smoke.
Presumably, you loathed it when there were no smokefree venues. Why would you now consider it acceptable for every pub, club, restaurant, bar (and not forgetting bus shelter – that’s when I knew that they’d lost the plot)in the land to be smokefree? Even if SHS were dangerous why should consenting adults: pub owners, customers and staff not have the right to decide that they are willing to accept the risk involved? Those who prefer a smokefree environment choose…err, a smokefree environment…
You have been thoroughly brainwashed and the language that you use in describing smokers as ‘addicts’, ‘desperately clinging’ to a belief reflects this. I, along with many others, are incredibly angry, not just about the ban, but because this government has been willing to use disreputable statistics, presented by an unscrupulous and zealous lobby, riddled with vested interest, to vilify a section of the population in hope that society’s opprobrium will shame us into not smoking. You have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. You quite possibly even think that the swingeing tax on tobacco is also levied for our own good. Sheesh….
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 8:54 pm
Epidemiology is a study of an epidemic, looking at environment, lifestyle and so on to find a cause of the epidemic. When Doll and others used epidemiology to find the cause of a noticeable rise in lung cancer, which already existed, a link was discovered with cigarette smoking.
It seems to be a habit now to use epidemiology to create an epidemic, like processed meat = bowel cancer, lung cancer in never smoker = SHS. I heard some new advice this morning, all children should wear UVA protective sunglasses!
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 9:32 pm
Jay
You are wasting your time with Liberanos, it’s obvious to me that Liberanos is a doctrined fool the sort that would believe anything propaganda would tell him/her. This individual can’t grasp the fact that we have establishments which cater for the many (or should) and that people decide to enter or not. Let’s ban lap-dancing clubs shall we Lib just in case you want to go in but don’t approve.
Tuesday 18 August 2009 at 9:55 pm
Liberanos:
You guys and your straw men, you make me scream, at least it was a change from the peeing in a swiming pool analogy.
If you wanted to go to a resteraunt that allowed ghetto blasters, and was open about it’s policy, I see no problem. I for one dont like ghetto blasters, but as long as you stick to those outlets that permit it, who am I to argue.
I do not expect the full weight of the law to brought down on the side of ghetto blaster control lobbyists, and I dont demand tax payers cash to fund said lobbyists.
Each to their own (remember that?).
Wednesday 19 August 2009 at 1:04 pm
I never call people fools. It’s not only impolite, it also avoids the necessity to counter their arguments.
I’m entirely in favour of establishments for the SOLE use of addicts…so long as the staff are fully involved. Fixing parlours, opium dens, shisha cafes, smoking carriages and so on.
I’m also in favour of any drug delivery system using patch, tablet or injection. No problem there. To each his own. Legalise the lot.
What I consider iniquitous is a drug delivery system which INEVITABLY involves others.
Finally, there will always be staunch defenders of the view that nicotine is not addictive.
Many of these seem to be users of the drug.
Wednesday 19 August 2009 at 3:15 pm
Liberanos
I see you think that anyone who smokes, no matter how infrequently are addicts.
Why is it that 50% of my social circle only ever have a cigarette when they are drinking beer? Which is usually once a week.
How many people drink tea or coffee every morning? Are they caffeine/tea addicts?
Is anyone who drinks alcohol an alcoholic?
Your words typify somebody who has bought the anti-tobacco lobby/industry junk science as you spew the hate-speech that their resulting spiteful legislation has engendered.
It demonstrates clearly that rather than smoking being denormalised, instead it is the smoker themselves, in what is supposed to be a Liberal, free and tolerant society.
Wednesday 19 August 2009 at 4:52 pm
Smelly people are not tolerated at restaurants and rarely in pubs. Why would people want to make themselves reek in a way that puts other diners off their food and then complain that they were asked not to return to the restaurant?
How many other habits impact other customers enjoyment of an establishment and then act with righteous indignation when asked to sod off?
Should we have pubs and restaurants for smelly people? How about ones where you can go in and play your music as loud as possible?
How about a cinema where everyone can talk as loudly as they want and anyone who wants to watch the film in peace can go to another establishment?
Wednesday 19 August 2009 at 10:31 pm
Liberanos and Paul are using a well known Anti-Smoking lobby tactic of refusing to debate the “evidence”(there are certainly enough links posted on this site ).
Wednesday 19 August 2009 at 10:48 pm
I have enjoyed reading the blog/article and all the comments.
I have just come back from Spain, ashtrays on the tables even in the restaurants. The air quality was superb, even my husband who has never smoked, was surprised when we walked in, to be asked if we wanted smoking or non-smoking.
There were not clouds of smoke, just people enjoying socializing, one week of respite from here. People work in filthy factories with many hazards and ventilation works for them, doesn’t it?
When the “addicts” (according to Eric), like a drink, become “denormalized” as they will at the rate of knots the new “temperance movement” is going, they will understand what it feel like.
http://www.democracyinstitute.org/pdfs/DI%20Denormalisation%20Study.pdf
snip~
In practise, denormalisation means that the
government attempts to shame adults into
changing their behaviour. For the
government’s denormalisation campaign to
succeed these adults must be stigmatised,II
that is, they will be placed apart from the
rest of civilised society until and unless they
learn to behave in the approved manner.1
Denormalisation pushes gamblers, drinkers, smokers, and the obese from being a health hazard to being a moral hazard, nothing less than blots on the nation’s moral landscape.
http://www.democracyinstitute.org/pdfs/DI%20Denormalisation%20Study.pdf
snip~page 25
Would we find nothing morally objectionable about such government
activity? The answer is that, whatever our views about AIDS or sexuality, we would
find such actions to be morally objectionable. For a government in a liberal
democracy, the tool for censuring either its citizens or its corporations is not
denormalisation but the criminal law. To
forget this is to forget that the twentiethcentury’s
experiments in denormalisation
ended with the gulag and the concentration camp. Denormalisation also runs afoul of legitimacy because it represents a vast and unacceptable instance of social engineering.
I do not and will not trust any of the “top three” party polititions, or the “fear epidemics” of scientist, or anything that makes Big Pharma bigger.
I will no longer help to fund any charity that is an extention of the government either.
Thank you for an interesting blog and all the links that have been allowed Tom.
Lies and propaganda have a habit of back firing and I am glad, many others can see that happening too.
Smoke-haters always had a choice, they were NEVER BANNED from investing their own money into smoke-free venues, were they.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 9:27 am
EJD: I was intentionally avoiding the evidence since everyone on here appears with their own little favourite study that proves/disproves the health benefits/dangers of second hand smoke.
On a very simplistic level second hand smoke causes eye and nose irritation and also leads to small amounts of chemicals being inhaled by non-willing participants (e.g. I am very sensitive to nicotine and can feel my heart race when I am in a smoky atmosphere – and it isn’t psychosomatic!)
This is why smoking is only allowed in well ventilated areas (also why cars are banned from indoor arenas, or should be) and why it is not only you that is being affected.
If you want to slap on some patches, chew tobacco or take snuff then knock yourself out just don’t ask me to be an unwilling drug user because I happen to frequent the same establishment.
As to private clubs… the problem there is employment law. Even if you had employees sign waivers and be smokers you are still effectively barring non-smokers from that job. However, if you had a private club and the staff were unpaid volunteers then I don’t see how there could be any problem with that.
See, I still made the argument and didn’t resort to slanted studies…
Mandyv: point taken about denormalisation, the same thing was done with drunk drivers and is now being tried with speeders. Snuff was once common as was chewing tobacco. Hollywood is playing its part by not showing people smoking. Steroid use (not abuse!) by athletes is now denormalised – and is NOT cheating any more than altitude training before an event is but that’s another argument. And I agree with you on not funding charity but for slightly different reasons.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 10:34 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/surrey/8209684.stm
Thought that story (about BO) would maybe be relevant… Or at least quite funny.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 10:44 am
Paul- dear oh dear.
Firstly 6 0ut 0f every 7 sudies show SHS to be harmless, the remainder do not demonstrate causation of disease and in ANY other field of medicine would rejected. If only you(and 400 odd MP’s) took the time out to see how the numbers were crunched for the SCOTH committee to recommend the ban.
As you put in ’simplistic’ terms SHS is merely an irritant to some. Does the fact that it irritates you, warrant smoking being criminalised in all public places? Many people hate the smell of curry or garlic or beer even. Some people have allergic reactions to perfume. Should these and goodness knows what else be criminalised just because of the whims or preferences of some individuals?
What is wrong with having clubs for smokers? We have lesbian and gay clubs, lap dancing clubs, we have book clubs. Do pole dancers sign a waiver in case they fall off the pole?
The denormalisation MandyV mentioned and the bigotry and hysteria it engenders is illustrated by your comments.
We are talking about smokers having places to socialise in comfort like the rest of society. How can a free society deny that to them?
Do you not realise how social lives are now ruined? A beer and a smoke go together like strawberries and cream. One without the other or is pointless for many. When you go to a club, you alternate having a dance with a relaxing smoke, a drink and a chat(do you know how much hassle is involved in getting in and out of a club?)Bingo players now have to smoke between games, and miss out on a chat and a game on the fruit machine. And Shisha bars? well some much for muliti-cultralism. Like it or not social smoking is/was an intrinsic part of our culture and thus our freedom has been removed by this ‘new paternalism’.
It may not affect you at the moment. But if you drink, or eat ‘non-healthy’ food, you are next on nanny’s hitlist.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 12:04 pm
AJ: If the stats are so much in smoking’s favour then why are there no scientists being heard? Why is there no public campaign of any size? Why would ANY scientist of any note or principle allow bad science to stand when it would undermine every aspect of their self worth in their career?
Smoking is not criminalised in public places as you put it, merely indoors.
And as for hysteria? My comments are somewhat lacking in that as far as I can tell, either you’re paranoid, overly sensitive or I am missing something.
But let’s cut to the chase here.
You have a substance you wish to take – nicotine.
You have a form you wish to consume it in – cigarettes.
You wish to partake of this activity in public where it affects others, from making their clothes/hair smell bad to the possible health problems.
Surely, in a nice society we have give and take.
I defend your right to indulge in the drug of your choice, nicotine, but I also claim the right not to have to wash my hair/change my clothes because I stepped into a pub for a quick pint on the way home from work.
So you can partake of your drug of choice in any manner that does not impinge upon my freedom, be it patches, gum, tablets, injection, whatever.
Your point about curry/garlic etc. is fair enough but almost every place with strong scents of those are there to sell food infused with it, what you want is to have a place that sells food or beer to be smoke scented when smoking is not the principle point of that place. I refer you to my point about smoking clubs above to show I have a tolerance for them.
To give you an extreme example: if every can of beer you had sprayed some of its contents in all directions then you should be allowed to have the beer at home, but not in enclosed public places. Because there are other methods of having beer that do not have this drawback (bottles, pints etc.) then we can ban beer cans from the public arena without anyone’s freedoms being impinged.
Can you not see that this is the same as the smoking issue? You can still have your nicotine in ways that do not affect anyone else, all you need is a bit of respect for others.
Again, without even going near the contentious health issues…
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 12:38 pm
Incidentally, they already have come after drinkers: I cannot walk down the street having a nice beer in the warm sunshine (but you can smoke…) which is a ridiculous rule. In this instance people are being punished because of the fears of what a minority might do. Much like why the Yale University decided not to publish a book containing the contentious images of Mohammed that were published in a Danish newspaper eevn though the book is about them… but that’s another story.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 2:30 pm
Paul:
Degrades the immune system:Interferes with hormones:Causes serious ,permanent impairment of the nervous system:Induces allergic reactions,not limited to asthma.
SMOKING? – NO , DIESEL FUMES – YES
http://healthandenergy.com/deadly_diesel_fumes.htm
The Government have got their priorities WRONG.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 3:43 pm
The obese are next, Note that this study is funded by Pfizer – vested interests one may ask.
http://www.ilcuk.org.uk/files/pdf_pdf_53.pdf
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 3:45 pm
EJD:
I actually agree with you that the government should get the heck out our personal lives and stop telling us what to do.
As you say, when they do try to do things they inevitably get it wrong.
However, I note you did not refute the rights of people not to have their hair and clothes damaged* by others smoke…
One of the closing lines of my recent rant:
We should be taking powers off of those in power who, almost without exception in history, have sought more power “for our own good.”
* damage can include the damage caused by repeated washing that would not be required but for the smell of smoke!
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 3:57 pm
Paul
Scientists who do not toe the line either do not get published and/or become ostracised.
Enstrom and Kabatt were vilified by the anti-smoking industry because their (largest ever conducted)(40 years long) study on SHS concluded that it was harmless.
Their careers are now under constant threat as a result. http://www.scientificintegrityinstitute.org/publications.html
Even the Golden boy of anti-smoking (Dr Michael Siegel) has been sent to the dark side for daring to suggest that the claims of anti-tobacco are extreme.
David Goerlitz(former Winston Man, then anti-tobacco pioneer) – probably the only man to work on both sides of the fence, has seen the extremism of the claims of anti-tobacco and refutes the junk science of second hand smoke despite his tireless efforts to discourage smoking.
If any of the aforementioned dare to speak ‘off-message’ they are labeled Big Tobacco Stooges and/or end up unpublished and out of work. Despite this though, some do speak out. Gio Gori Former Director of The Institute of Medicine itself openly cites SHS harm as a fraud.
The size of the anti-tobacco dwarfs Big Tobacco in terms of funding and media exposure.
The latter is secured because BT cannot advertise whereas Pharma (Nicotine patches etc)can.
Campaigns are up against it from the off.
Years of propaganda backed by millions of pounds (much of it from the tax payer) have demonized smokers, turning them from ordinary people to filthy baby killers. Is it any wonder most are shamed into silence.
Despite that there is a growing credible opposition if you look around the web.
http://www.freedom2choose.info http://www.velvetgloveironfist.com for starters.
You claim I am overly sensitive and paranoid(label me rather than provide a reasoned critique) yet you agree that a smell that just might(your words) be unhealthy should be a criminal offence in all substantially enclosed public places or private places which are workplaces!
Do you not see how absurd, insulting, and if you like, over-sensitive that is?
You apparently do not understand the attraction of smoking. It isn’t all about nicotine. If it was then no-one would bother to smoke, and NRT would work which it clearly doesn’t.
The same way you have a pint of beer instead of an alcohol pill or apply “transdermal Stella”
Why should you (or indeed the state)decide how people socialize and where?
I am not saying smoking should be everywhere anytime, I am saying that in a free society there should be plenty of places where smokers (probably 1/3 of adult population smoke at least some of the time) can exercise their right to meet and socialise.
Your example of beer not being anti-social because it doesn’t always spill or spray is interesting.
Modern Air management filters and extracts smoke to 99.997% efficiency.
The current anti-alcohol campaign cites ‘passive drinking’ as a reason to clamp down on consumption. “It causes anti-social behaviour, crime, domestic violence, alcoholism etc etc etc”.
Of course again, an exaggerated scare story, but you get the idea where it is leading.
You wait, as alcohol advertising becomes less and less prevalent, and eventually illegal, watch the media turn against it, once it no longer provides a revenue stream.
Again, sound familiar?
My partner wretches at the smell of boiled milk, so she simply avoids anywhere where Lattes are served. For the benefit of her sensitive stomach, should we criminalise heating milk in enclosed public places?
The smoking ban has created a blueprint for paternalism and neo-prohibition.
You’re next!
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 4:55 pm
Paul:
You seem to have forgotten about the word “choice”. Landlords and Private Clubs should have the right to decide whether their premises are smoking or non-smoking ( the Landlord is the only person who knows the percentage of his customers who are smokers and Private clubs could have a members vote to decide).
The alternative is to use modern Air Filtration equipment which is capable of eliminitating 99.9% of contaminents, including 2.5PM particulate matter.
Smoking rooms could also be provided to meet these standards.
This would allow choice for all.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 6:09 pm
Private members clubs should be allowed to do more or less what they like, within reason. I simply mentioned that employment law may not like it. I also gave a way that must surely get round that and so was not against having these places.
Modern filtration equipment does not remove as much as you think instantly, the smoke has to go into the air and you always have people exhaling in a manner that will spread the smoke. And this, AJ, is where the damage to my property and person comes in which is the part that allows me to agree with the criminalisation of it. By blowing smoke in my direction, intentionally or otherwise, you are damaging my property. Yes, vehicle fumes are at least as bad, if you ever cross behind a bus you’ll know all about that, but we have decided that it is okay for that to happen outdoors, it is the confined space that makes smoking anti-social.
Incidentally, I’m not having ‘passive drinking’ or even ‘passive heroin abuse’ as real things. The crimes drunk (or drugged) people cause are caused by people not the drug. There is an underlying tendency to commit the crime that the drug allows to come to the fore. I have done the odd bit of CD while drunk but I have never thought of resorting to violence. Which suggests I value people more than property. Anyone who turns to random violence, drunk or otherwise, has a disregard for other people and deserves all the punishment going. But that’s all off-topic.
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 9:13 pm
Paul:
You are obviously not up to date regarding Air Filtration, have a look at the links below.
http://www.rokenergie.com/pubsclubs.htm
http://www.steril-aire.com/steril-zone-room-air-purifier.htm
http://www.steril-aire.com/hospital-air-purification/
http://www.iqair.com/uk/newsroom/2009/05/airborne-infection-control-of-swine-flu-virus/
Thursday 20 August 2009 at 10:53 pm
Paul
A simple question.
Do you go into any shops, walk any streets, work within any enviroment of car pollution?
Friday 21 August 2009 at 10:03 am
EJD: It is a physical impossibility for smoke from both exhallation and the cigarette to not affect people’s clothes. The only way this would even theoretically come close is to have a constant vertical draught that somehow avoids all lateral movement and diffusion of the smoke.
I am sure it is 99.9% better than the old smoke filled pubs, but it still afftects my property.
Aaron Spelling: I believe I already covered that. Society has viewed the pollution (and guaranteed health problems assosciated with it) from vehicles to be an accepted cost compared to the benefit cars and buses provide. And they are restricted to outdoors. (Albeit some stores in Hope Street can get a bit polluted!)
Incidentally, and not wanting to start a flame war, how does SHS not cause any damage but smoking does?
There must be a risk involved with SHS – not the smoke that is exhaled, but the smoke that comes off a burning cigarette when the user is not inhaling.
Otherwise how can smoking cause damage to smokers?
Friday 21 August 2009 at 11:59 am
Paul
Paul have you not read this thread?
In summary: Air management makes the air cleaner than any outside urban environment. No smell, no toxins(including all those that roam free in smokeless pubs.
The dose makes the poison.
Do you not agree there is a big difference between a few cigarettes a day than 60? There is a dose-response relationship with smoking the same as anything else in the universe. Try to think beyond the propaganda.
Toxicological studies have clearly shown that SHS is diluted to such a degree a non-smoker would have to be exposed to hundreds of cigarettes at a time to equal 1 direct cigarette.
Exposure, to the minute amount of chemicals in SHS would be miniscule especially compared to breathing air in any town or being near a BBQ.
All of the carcinogens in SHS anti-tobacco bleat on about are listed in the HSE Workplace Exposure limits. None of them could possibly be exceeded in a smoky pub, or anywhere outside of a lab.
That is why they needed a ban because SHS didnt conflict with the H&SW act.
Its a big con, and you support a blanket ban(nowhere comfortable for smokers to socialise and meet people, even with the property owners consent)because you want to wear the same shirt on consecutive days. Why not just go to a smokeless pub instead?
Anyway the way things are going you will have to start washing your clothes more often.
http://timesnews.typepad.com/news/2009/08/thorpe-parks-bo-ban.html
Like i said You’re next!
Friday 21 August 2009 at 1:58 pm
Paul
The point is simple, people who work in shops in busy highstreets are not protected from pollution. I would assume the govt would say it’s your choice to work there. Now why isn’t the same applied to CERTAIN pubs? We must protect the poor old worker from smoke BUT we need employment so they can kill themselves working in polluted shops, wake up Paul.
Friday 21 August 2009 at 2:09 pm
I already posted a link to that
I agree that with decent filtration the health risk for non-smokers are small but that doesn’t change the fact that I need to dry clean my suit more often due to people breathing out smoke.
Why did (virtually) no pubs/clubs install these systems pre-ban? They were too expensive. So what, it would surely have been worth a gamble by one of the larger chains to refit one of their pubs with a system so they could show the effectiveness of it and such pubs would have been able to apply for an exemption to the ban.
In fact, why doesn’t one try it? The drinks and tobacco lobbies must be powerful enough to get this at least raised at the Scottish Parliament. Imagine the amount of business that pub would do…
You show me a pub where people can drink, socialise and eat with no ill-effects from the smokers around them and I’d go there. Ill-effects being loss of appetite, smokey smells, ash in glasses, ash in the air etc. Then we’d all be happy bunnies, like I said, I have no problem with you damaging your own body with whatever drug you choose as long as it doesn’t affect others.
However, I can’t see any of that being given the go-ahead because the demonisation of smoking ‘for your own good’ trumps any libertarian card you or I could play.
Friday 21 August 2009 at 3:43 pm
Absolutely right, Paul.
The ‘for your own good’ nonsense is part of the monstrous, PC culture.
We who partake of tea, coffee, alcohol,grass, coke,nicotine, heroin, meth and so on, have a perfect right to continue the activity. Regardless of the potency of the addictive substance, it’s simply no one else’s business.
In fact, everything we do to ourselves should be legal and allowable…unless it harms others.
And that’s the problem. When the delivery is through the lungs, those nearby are inevitably forced to share the experience.
If a method of nicotine delivery involving needle, tablet or drink could be devised, why on earth would anyone nearby object?
Until then,the answer is surely total separation of smokers from non smokers.
Friday 21 August 2009 at 5:04 pm
Liberanos:
Quote: Until then,the answer is surely total separation of smokers from non smokers : Unquote.
I agree – Smoking and Non-Smoking establishments is the answer.
Friday 21 August 2009 at 5:41 pm
Paul
Your lack of reply to my last post speaks volumes.
Friday 21 August 2009 at 5:46 pm
I assume both Paul and Liberanos holiday in this country. I could not imagine them enjoying a drink in Spain where people still have freedom and as for Greece and…………….
Friday 21 August 2009 at 8:56 pm
Liberanos, I am going to assume you do not wear aftershave, or do you?
Just for the record, I would NOT want this banned, but this does affect everyone who has a breathing problem and those that did not have,until they come into contact with the fumes from perfumes ect.
How many people do you think have been forced to eat around those who splash this stuff on, like there is no tomorrow.
http://www.ourlittleplace.com/chemicals.html
Snip~
2. BENZALDEHYDE (in: perfume, cologne, hairspray, laundry bleach, deodorants, detergent, vaseline lotion, shaving cream, shampoo, bar soap, dishwasher detergent)
Narcotic. Sensitizer. “Local anesthetic, CNS depressant”… “irritation to the mouth, throat, eyes, skin, lungs, and GI tract, causing nausea and abdominal pain.” “May cause kidney damage.” “Do not use with contact lenses.”
3. BENZYL ACETATE (in: perfume, cologne, shampoo, fabric softener, stickup air freshener, dishwashing liquid and detergent, soap, hairspray, bleach, after shave, deodorants)
Carcinogenic (linked to pancreatic cancer); “From vapors: irritating to eyes and respiratory passages, exciting cough.” “In mice: hyperanemia of the lungs.” “Can be absorbed through the skin causing systemic effects.” “Do not flush to sewer.”
4. BENZYL ALCOHOL (in: perfume, cologne, soap, shampoo, nail enamel remover, air freshener, laundry bleach and detergent, vaseline lotion, deodorants, fabric softener)
“irritating to the upper respiratory tract” …”headache, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, drop in blood pressure, CNS depression, and death in severe cases due to respiratory failure.”
Friday 21 August 2009 at 10:04 pm
ARE THERE ANY MPs READING THIS BLOG?.
If so then look at the contents of the following links,consider the briefing given to the House of Lords,then ask yourself whether the Department of Health were just incompetent or was it a deliberate deception.
Questions should be asked in Parliament.
Patrick Basham
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/7262/
Chris Snowdon
http://www.velvetgloveironfist.com/darkmarket_display_ban.php
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/FreedomOfInformation/Freedomofinformationpublicationschemefeedback/FOIreleases/DH_101835
Sunday 23 August 2009 at 12:06 pm
@mandyv
I believe there have been remarkably few deaths from after shave around the world.
The unpleasantness of the experience is not the concern.
The concern is its danger.
Smoking is intensely pleasurable for the addict. They are totally entitled to continue their enjoyment, so long as I am not forced to experience it with them.
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