And another thing…

Oh dear – what a fail. You clearly didn’t see that I didn’t sign that statement.

It was published by others who signed it and wanted to cross-post it to Libcon.

If you want to catch me out Tom, perhaps you should address the points I make in my articles instead of trying these lame attempts.

Hundal is probably the most holier than thou sanctimonious git on the blogosphere. He’s one of those people that when you meet him he’s as nice as pie, and then goes back to his bedsit, puts on his pyjamas and slags you off. If you don’t follow his “ethics” and agenda you are by definition beneath contempt.

The use of the word Liberal in his blog title has always amused me. Illiberal would be a much better description.

Never let us forget that it’s all about you, ‘Uncle’ Tom.

Have another award.

Which bit of “big tent” d’yer think it is that they can’t comprehend?

It looks like you have more material to add to your list of “endorsements”.

One of the aspects of politics that bores me (and I suspect a lot of people) is the sheer negativity of it all.

Everyone else is wrong and their wrongness has to be demonised at every possible opportunity.

It’s dull.

LibCon started as a really interesting blog, but now it is just a hate-rag. I hope it can return to its roots of debating actual policy and not just ranting that everyone who disagrees with them is the devil incarnate.

Leave it Tom please… he ain’t worth it…

Tom,

Sunny is right that he didn’t sign the statement, which I was responsible for coordinating and publishing.

Partly, it was primarily a Labour bloggers thing specifically responding to Drapergate, and the value of blogging for our party and politics. Sunny isn’t a party member. Also, though the statement was perfectly careful to distinguish legitimate ‘negative campaigning’ as part of politics, I expect it was a bit too Fabianesque and high-minded for Sunny H who does thrive on less holds barred confiict.

He wrote at the time on LC

“I’ve not signed the statement. And I wouldn’t sign up to anything that says we should not be nasty. We’d just end up in a straight-jacket while the likes of Staines, Dale and Dorries keep smearing other people”.

I also disagreed with your argument on pay at the top (though I think you are right that a maximum wage would be unworkable and politically damaging) .

However, I did then challenge comments in response of the “isn’t Tom really a Tory” type or “who put you up to say it”. I can disagree with your argument without doubting that you are arguing what you think is in the best interests of the Labour Party, in terms of the importance of being seen to be pro-aspiration.

So I think the point about mutual respect is a serious one: we have had too little debate in the party; some people feel or fear all debate will descend into factionalism and civil war, and a handful of people seem particularly up for this.

There are too many attempts to conduct debates along “Well, if its New Labour, they must be out to kill the party”, and/or attacks on “the Trots” being applied v.loosely, and both often seem to be attempts not to debate issues seriously on their merits.

Lol @Sunder

One of your main concern about a maximum wage is that it would be ‘politically’ damaging?

It wouldn’t be politically damaging. It would bring down the UK economy. Still, I suppose one way of reducing relative poverty is to bring the median income down, so at least aim would be complete.

well done tom, sometimes sunny has to be cut down to size. He talks A LOT of sense, but this time you are certainly in the right

The really funny thing, looking at that four month old blog, is that it was signed by Labour supporters, including David Lammy, yet when Tom read it, he obviously saw only ‘Liberal Conspiracy’ (with their ‘liberal traits’), and thought ‘here’s something I can use to beat liberals with’. It really is astonishing what some constituencies will put up with. Would it be so much of a gamble to just throw a red rosette out of a window and make whatever it lands on the Labour PPC?

If you’re a collector of hypocrisy and cant, in Sunny Hundal you’ve struck a rich vein. Check out this stream of consciousness.

http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/08/04/a-government-in-turmoil/

Thank goodness he’s on your ’side’.

I hold the same opinion of joke blogger Sunny Hundal as Devil’s Kitchen does of you.

Nuff said, methinks.

Just go over that again Tom.

Who the hell is Sunny Hundal anyway? Am I supposed to know?

You haven’t responded to Hundal saying he didn’t write it… maybe you should.

It must get a bit tedious for Tom to keep being accused of being a Tory, since he’s spent his whole adult life in the Labour party, and is consistently most robust in his defence of Labour against the regiment of Tory trolls who post on here.

Perhaps Sunny wishes it was 1983 again (he was actually still a toddler then), a year which represented the glorious zenith of the purity of left-wing ideals totally unsullied by any relationship to reality – which also resulted in electoral wipeout. For the Tories, these left-wing purists fulfilled the role of useful idiots. They stood carping ineffectually on the sidelines whilst North Sea Oil revenue was squandered, and industry and communities were destroyed.

What makes Sunny’s ‘Tory’ jibe at Tom so hypocritical is the fact that he, Sunny Hundal, is the one who has actually recommended voting Tory on his blog. Specifically, he said ‘brown people’ (his term) should vote Tory – the reason he gave was one of the most ridiculously paranoid statements in the history of blogging (which is saying something):

Saying that… given that New Labour wants to extend anti-terrorism legislation until every brown person in the country is locked up until proven innocent (or once the police can be bothered to let you out), it makes more sense for brown and black people, who will overwhelmingly face the brunt of this police-state legislation, to vote Conservative. At least the Tories have finally found some balls regarding the erosion of our civil liberties. And yes, I felt slightly sordid saying that. But its worth thinking about – if you’re brown, then its not worth voting Labour for the sake of your own security.
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/2064

[...] Tory Politico cannot believe the sexism of the chairman of Gosport Tories.2. Tom Harris gives Sunny Hundal some advice, and cuts him down to size. About time someone did.3. Paul Waugh is [...]

And, as I said in response at the time, we welcomed your qualified support for the principles which you wrote about on your blog at the time, even if the Disney movie deal fell through over artistic differences.

I think the attitude well represents the vast majority of the labour party.

You see thats how I see you( Labour) and why I have so little time for how labour acts.

Talking down to us saying one thing and doing another. The country is sick of it.As I think you are Tom.

MarkM

I wrote “unworkable AND politically damaging”.

So I do not disagree on the substance that it couldn’t be done, and would be economically damaging if it were attempted, in my view. As Tom’s point was also that it would be politically daft. I agreed with that too. I don’t see any difficulty with both things being true.

However I think it would be right in principle AND workable in practice AND politically astute to have greater scrutiny of ‘rewards for failure’ where mega-bonuses create systemic instability. There is agreement about this across the mainstream political spectrum, with different degrees of emphasis; that reflects too the arguments about ‘rewards for failure’ and unearned gains which New Labour rightly made about excessive pay in privatised monopolies before 1997.

And I believe it is right and possible to have a broader debate about fair opportunies and fair rewards in our society without descending into the so-called ‘politics of envy’. This is what the Labour Party – including New Labour – is centrally for, though again there is some acknowledgement of this principle across most mainstream views of left, right and centre, though with different views about what equality of opportunity and fairness demand.

“We believe that we can challenge our political opponents without always questioning their integrity.”

Two words – Red rag.

On Sunny representing “Labour” views, my friend Sunny Hundal is not (for sure) and has never been (as far as I know) a member of the Labour Party. He has blogged that he intends to vote Green.

He is anti-Tory, he is somewhat sympathetic to Labour (in that he often argues about what the party should do to connect to disillusioned liberal-lefties like himself and others at Liberal Conspiracy). For that reason, some people (esp LibDems) say that LC is somehow a ‘Labour front’ but anybody who comments there in any way supportively of Labour will know this is nonsense.

Now I think Labour voices should be involved in constructive debate and dialogue with critical liberal-left audiences, wherever people want a real debate. And many people in the party often have some sympathy with arguments about the environment, civil liberties, inequality etc and welcome a real debate about how to address these issues.

But I don’t think Sunny is well placed to tell Labour MPs and members that they are not really Labour in his view, even if his argument is that he would join if other people left. This is the factionalism and in-fighting which LC is theoretically against, and ‘no factionalism except for those New Labour bastards’ falls a little way short for me.

To Sunny’s credit, LC is the most widely read broad liberal-left website in the UK. While the quality of any site always varies, the quality of discussion when good is as high as in any non-academic or non-specialist site I have seen, though sometimes it descends into silliness.

Does anyone have a good recipe for Blackberry jam?

@Sunder
“However I think it would be right in principle AND workable in practice AND politically astute to have greater scrutiny of ‘rewards for failure’ where mega-bonuses create systemic instability”

Ok, I’ll debate this point more rationally. Seems fair after a reasoned response.

It is an awkward position because keeping the economy stable is a duty of the government. On the other hand, it is no business of the government to decide the level of remuneration a private company gives. The seemingly contradictory position means that all a government can do is ensure that companies don’t become “too big to fail” – that is, so big that the economy cannot survive should the risk taking come back to bite them. We should never end up in a position where multi-billion pound bailouts of banks is required to prevent the collapse of our economy. A failing bank should be allowed to go under.

I thought your original post on HPC entirely reasonable, well-argued and in line with Labour ‘97, when many new and dissattisfied voters, including me, joined your camp, with the belief that ambition and aspiration would not be sneered at or over-penalised.

HPC appears more driven by dogma than economic sense and pictures an organisation behind it which would make the FSA look like a corner shop.

To hold this contrary view, as you demonstrate, does not require you to be extreme left or right, a filthy rich banker or just a greedy bastard. Nor would HPC bring that mythical re-distribution of wealth which iradicates poverty and cures our social ills.

Though I left your camp quickly, I am not surprised at some of the criticism you receive. The abusive smears and irrationality from some comrades demonstrates a dislike for moderation that will surely prevent a repeat of ‘97.

Hi Old Holborn,

2lb blackberries
2lb preserving sugar (caster if you can’t get it but see the note)
2 lemons
2 sachets pectin.

A jam funnel;
Enough jars and lids;
Preserving pan;
A couple of saucers;
A saucepan.

Soak the blackberries for a couple of hours to get the bugs out. Dry them. Place them in your jam-making cauldron. Now if you’re using caster sugar, you should layer berries and caster sugar and leave overnight. If you’re using preserving sugar, just layer berries and sugar.

Start to heat. If you’re using caster sugar, bring to the heat very very slowly, and it may take 3-4 hours to heat up – otherwise you end up with a big lump of sugar at the bottom. Let the sugar melt.

Now get a couple of saucers or plates, and put them in the freezer.

At this point, turn the oven on to 160c, and wash the jam jars, then place them in the oven. This sterilises them. Next get a saucepan, boil some water in it, and put the lids in. This will sterilise the lids.

Next, add the juice from the two lemons, and the pectin, to the mix.

Bring the mix to the boil and keep it there for around 20 minutes, perhaps a little longer.

To test whether the jam is ready, take a spoon, take a bit of the jam, put it on the freezing saucer and put it back in the freezer for a minute. When the jam is ready, pressing it with your finger will make it wrinkle, and it won’t flow back when drawing your finger through it. This will give you a runny jam – a conserve. If you want it firmer, add more pectin and lemon juice.

Once the jam’s ready turn the heat off, take a jar from the oven, put the jam funnel in it, pour the jam in to about 1/2″ from the top, take a lid from the saucepan of boiling water, dry it, and put it on.

Do this for the rest of the jam.

If you’ve done it right, you’ll have enough jam to fill approximately ten normal-sized jam jars which should do most people for nearly a year.

I don’t hold with separating out the seeds, but if you wish to do that you’ll need some muslim or a sieve.

“I don’t hold with separating out the seeds, but if you wish to do that you’ll need some muslim or a sieve.”

Racist! )

Anyone have a good recipe for Blackberry spam?

@ Old Hoborn
“Does anyone have a good recipe for Blackberry jam?”

I think that on a pro-Labour blog you’ll have more luck with recipes for fudge.

You wouldn’t be tempted, would you, Tom – an intelligent bloke, and a rare case in New Labour who seems to place his humanity before his political being and thirst for power over us, to describe ANYTHING to do with New Labour as “progressive”, surely?

After all – you have taken us back towards the dark ages at great speed have you not.

Government stats show that your bunch have applied to monitor the comumunications of 1 in 78 of us.

How is that “progressive”?

Or this?

My step-daughter was declared innocent yesterday, on appeal at a Crown Court, of a crime for which she was sentenced on the basis of four police officers lying, and the magistrates ate her initial trial not understanding the law.

The judge threw out every argument they had used to convict her as utterly without substance.

However, had her grandfather not has some spare cash, we would not have been able to afford the case at all. We went down £15k before she was acquitted; happily, the Judge awarded costs to us as well, and we may well know sue for wrongful arrest.

Labour’s determination to put the law out of reach to all but the wealthy – how is that “progressive”, Tom?

Oh what the hell. God I’ll be glad when they are gone. This long term ex-Labour voter has nothing but the deepest contempt for this shower.

No wonder they got rid of the death penalty for treason; for they have committed treason against us.

Oh and yes – we will be getting her DNA removed as well. We used Brian Hawe’s laywers, and they are on it already.

I used to like this country. I never feared the “state”. Now I do – they are the enemy of the people, and we clearly, are their enemy.

Plodder – I’m genuinely glad to hear of your family’s legal success, but if you believe that police corruption came into existence in 1997, then by all means, vote against Labour at the general election.

@Nicky Saturday 22 August 2009 at 1:26 am

//
It must get a bit tedious for Tom to keep being accused of being a Tory, since he’s spent his whole adult life in the Labour party, and is consistently most robust in his defence of Labour against the regiment of Tory trolls who post on here.
//

The most BORING and STUPID current thread in so many blogs – that to criticise Labour you have to be a Tory.

Wake up and smell the coffee – EVERYBODY hates them now. Bar the 20% public sector client state they have bought with lovely salaries and huge pensions. The rest of us the have effed over – including this 58 year old who voted for them for 32 years until Blair took us into Iraq.

Now if they were wiped out at the next election, I couldn’t be happier.

Any political party that thinks that someone like Balls is fit for public office is not … fit for public office.

And as for Mandelson. Pas the bucket, I am going to puke. And why did the surgeons remove the only benign part of him?

@ Sergeant Plodder

“This long term ex-Labour voter has nothing but the deepest contempt for this shower”

Amen comrade.

@ Tom
“vote against Labour at the general election”.

I think I should warn you in advance that I will be quoting you out of context on a regular basis from now on…

They are YOUR police now, Tom. And you have given them another 3000 crimes with which to prosecute us.

You also ignore my point – that unspeakable man Straw has made it impossible for ordinary folk to fight the law any more. As noted, we were lucky that here granddad has funds, else she would be a criminal for all time.

She plans – and was going to before this happened – to go to Damascus to study Arabic. She would no have been let in with a criminal record. Similarly, whilst you can get into the States with one, make damn sure you apply MONTHS before you want to go.

Nope – this was your govenment’s doing – you have put legal process out of reach for most of us, have made leaving dustbin lids open a criminal offence, and have taken NO action to clean up the police – particularly the Met, who have been a byword for corruption and thuggery for decades.

Nope – the State dumped on her, because the could. Simple as that. With the collusion and encouragement of your mob.

Anyway, she is well radicalised now. She had hoped to work in the FO; a very smart and fine young woman, with politicians in her background – she now wants nothing to do with the mechanism of state, as she sees it for what it has become – as noted above, the enemy of the people.

Look – my parents were old-fashioned Liberals, and I was bought up in a little Liberal enclave in the North West. I became a Labour voter in the late 60s, as I felt that they best supported social justice. And that was why – with a peg on my nose, as Toynbee said – I voted for Blair in 1997.

I feel now that that vote helped to betray the country of my birth; and I truly believe you a have damaged the Uk beyond repair.

You may gather I am not just angry, but absolutely raging about this. You are a good man, I know. I don’t, however, understand how you can associate with your bosses. They are thugs and liars.

Tom – Iraq turned me against Labour. Further events have made it clear that I can never vote for them again. Ever. We have all been betrayed, and most of all, the poor, the young and the elderly.

Some record for the party of the workers, eh? You must be very proud.

Beardy bloke on a flaming bicycle. When will someone section this …. man

Brown discussed Megrahi release with Libya some days ago

And Mandelson met his son to talk about the cricket.

Please. GO. NOW.

@ Sergeant Plodder
“Please. GO. NOW.”

I’ve also tried asking but it didn’t work. Unfortunately our gracious host is no longer “in the loop” when it comes to making decisions about electoral timing.

Luckily, there’s a clock counting down on Brown’s desk that says ‘8 months, 14 days, 28 minutes’ until we’re all out of our misery.

No wonder the Tories don’t really need to “DO” anything to win the next election . . . they can simply rely on the Labour Party to scratch eachothers eyes out in tribal ‘in-fighting’; as so clearly demonstrated by them on this thread.

Isn’t it about time we put an end to this mess and called the General Election?

More on your coppers, Tom; not corruption this time, just utter contempt for their role.

G20 policemen forced to lodge their notebooks

Police officers’ notebooks lodged at the high court tell how they punched people in the face and beat others with riot shields during the G20 demonstrations in April.

A third constable logged: “To get the protesters who would not move, I needed to hit the flat part of my shield to get them to move back. I also used open-handed palm strikes. Once the protesters were moved back to the required distance, we remained in a closed cordon until relieved.”

“Tom Harris
Saturday 22 August 2009 at 8:07 pm
Plodder – I’m genuinely glad to hear of your family’s legal success, but if you believe that police corruption came into existence in 1997, then by all means, vote against Labour at the general election.”

This tells you all you need to know about this Labour government. Their defence rests on the basis that ‘Yes, we’ve had twelve years. Yes, we’ve imposed more restrictions and legislation than any other peacetime government. Yes, we’ve spent more taxpayers’ money than any peacetime government in history. But, no, we can’t take responsibility for anything that is wrong with the country – that’s all the fault of previous governments.’

It’s absolutely pathetic.

Mr. Boycott.

Quite so – and the Met are a law unto themselves. Some weeks back, we find that not only do many officers have credit cards to buy things with, but that they have been badly abused.

Then we hear that there are SO MANY of them, that they have decided to take no action.

It seems that a large chunk of this country can plunder the public purse at will, and with no fear of reprisal.

FUBAR.