And Another Thing…

Has Tom Watson taken over your blog for the day?

‘there’s no reason to obscure her views, especially if , as I strongly suspect is the case, they are supported by the majority of her party’

Nor, indeed, the majority of the electorate.

As Jim Royle might well say: “Progressive my ar*e!”

The left has a different definition of “progressive”. You think of it as the route to which your idea of a society is achieved. In other world, a socialist utopia is the end game of Labour “progression”. Our end-game is different, but arguably we are no less “progressive”. Not a fan of the term whoever uses it though.

That’s a rather strong interpretation of what I said!

I was merely pondering whether having a minimum wage in a deep recession was necessarily a good thing, given that it may have cost people their jobs.

*In other words

If you think unemployment is cool and no firm operates at a margin then you can support the minimum wage if you want.

I haven’t personally looked into Global warming a huge deal, but Nigel Lawsons book on the matter was an interesting read as to whether we should tax it into submission.

As for Grammar schools, I’m no supporter, I have a post saying exactly what I’d do on my blog.

Last time I checked I was pretty sure you disagreed with a few things your leader stands for too Mr Harris?

I speak for myself and only myself, if others choose to read my thoughts then that is very nice, but that doesn’t mean that i speak for the conservative party, david cameron or even conservative future. i hold no elected office or position within the party so a pretty cheap shot to be honest.

TB

Tory Bear – Not intended as a cheap shot, so apologies if that’s how it’s come across.

I absolutely understand you speak for yourself and no-one else (as do I), but do you think that your views on climate change are reflected in the wider Conservative Party? What do you think will be the general view of Tory commenters on this thread?

Tom. sometimes I just do not understand you. Tell me what is the point of a minimum wage when taken with the way you do not run the economy and there are no jobs.
You have all these ideas and forget that it has to be paid for.
We need to be far more business like in runnimg things to make money to pay for all these things. Its so basic yet you and you party just do not comprehend this.
End of post, still shaking my head.

When will you be providing a Gordon Brown ring tone. I can recomend the free Tory one its Mrs Thatcher not for turning. Or you could of course have A Blairs Education Education Education if you cannot find a Brown one. I do not think you will have to pay people too much to have it.

Comforting though it might be for us to think otherwise, the internet is not yet a massive political platform, as the abject failure of #welovethenhs to damage the Tory poll lead demonstrates. To suggest that the views expressed online are representative, and to judge that by how many hits a blog gets, is silly in the extreme.

After all, the best way to get hits on a blog is to be controversial. Saying what everyone else thinks only provides diminishing returns.

Tom,

As a member of a party that has, for the last twelve years, quite deliberately used fiscal drag to ensure that a higher burden of taxation falls on the working class, would you call yourself “progressive”?

Oh, and by the way, what the hell does the science concerning whether or not the current climate change trend is anthropogenic have to do with the political function of being “progressive”?

Perhaps you could enlighten me?

DK

Oh, and whilst we are about it, Tom, do you ever stop to think that if someone’s labour is worth less that £5.73 per hour (or whatever the NMW is these days), then they will never, ever get a job? Does it never bother you that your government has ensured that some people will be unemployed for ever?

Doesn’t it bother you that £5.73 is worth a lot more in Yorkshire than it is in London? That this is simply another symptom of the wider problem of having a National Pay Scheme—a National Pay Scheme that actually kills people?

DK

I’m sceptical that we should be wasting billions of pounds fighting something we have no real idea about. I am also sceptical of the point of us wasting billions of pounds when china india and the usa continue as normal.

everything will be ok without having out lives dictated to by a bunch of former trots who having tried to destroy industry and capitalism one way and lost have now rebranded and made up some new arguments.

this is off course my personal view and does put me in a fringe of the party in terms of mainstream thought and future policy. i am all for recycling, sustainable living, giving back what we take out and energy independence, however this is not to do with man-made climate change we can still be green and respect our planet but not because we are forced to through fear and law or becuase we will all drown if we don’t. I’m conservative. the clue is is in the name.

end of rant.

: )

Actually, Tom, I have a serious question for you that I would love you to answer seriously: do you ever look back on some of your party’s policies and think “do you know what? Maybe that wasn’t such a good idea after all?”

DK

Serious answer? Yes. For details, read my autobiography…

Tom, this is a very cheap tactic but unfortunately so typical of the left.

In sum form: “If you don’t agree with us – you are not progressive.”

It stinks Tom. We hear it all the time when the left want to shut down an arguement ot just attack the individual.

Question whether unfettered immigration without equal investment in infrastructure and services is a good idea and you shout “Racist!”, question whether it’s right to offer cosmetic surgery on the NHS and you shout “They’d scrap the NHS in a heart beat”.

it is cheap, dirty, ineffective to all but the most tribal automoton and so very typical of New Labour.

Oh I see, in order to be ‘progressive’ one has to believe in anthroprogenic global warming…

I don’t think there’s anything sadder than politicing issues of science. As if politians (any of them) would know the first thing about climate change.

Well I agree with Tory Bear, the evidence that past climate change happened with great regularity is incontrovertible. The bland assumption that we are the major factor now is not in any sense ‘generally accepted’ as is often claimed.

Now I will not be around in 50 years time to tell who is right one way or the other; but the point is well made somewhere above that if we in this country hamstring our industry and society by blind acceptance of the ‘man is at fault’ scenario whilst the major polluters in the world carry on regardless, then we are pissing in the wind. And our children and grandchildren will be ones left with the short end of the stick.

What I cannot understand is why is it that whenever anyone challenges that theory, they are immediately shouted down – I would much rather see a scientific structured debate and reasoned counter-arguments instead.

Whilst EVERYONE in the Labour Party thinks EXACTLY the same thing about everything.Else the Big Bad Man punishes them.

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. And Labour, who have been an unspeakable disaster for the country, have the gall to proclaim themselves “Progressive”, the New Newspeak buzz word.

Tell me, Tom – what has been progressive about

a) Your destruction of the economy
b) Your destruction of Civil Liberties
c) Your destruction of the political process

Garbage. Utter garbage.

Dave: “I don’t think there’s anything sadder than politicing issues of science.”

Does that include Dave Cameron’s superficial (phoney) embracing of the climate change agenda? I’d rather trust a climate change sceptic who was honest about his views than a sceptic who told people the opposite of what he believes.

Sergeant Plodder – so you’re saying you disagree with some of the post?

The Tory Party, like all political party, has a range of differing views. I agree with grammar schools, but don’t agree with bloggers who refuse to accept climate change is down to us.
It isn’t fair to use a few examples from the right wing of the Tory Party in order to prove all supporters are right wing & have the same views.
Just because we don’t rant on blogs, doesn’t mean to say we support those that do.
DC has a lot of support down here amongst the humble voters. Tory Bear, Hannan, Carswell does not. Nadine should go away somewhere and not come back.
From a normal bog standard Tory voter.

BTW. I’ve had a lot of support from the bog average Tory voter. We are progressive. We do believe in Climate change issues. We won’t be shouted down by any right wing bloggers.
’nuff said.

Tom Harris MP. One man wind-up-the-Tories expert. Such a delight to watch.

Keep up the good work. You’ve definitely got them rattled.

Up to a point, it’s not that much of a problem what the majority of the Tory Party believes, only what David Cameron chooses to do. We live under a system in which the government has a disproportionate amount of power relative to Parliament, and the Prime Minister has a disproportionate amount of power relative to the cabinet. We may not like that fact, but it’s there. So we will get a David Cameron government, not an ‘Old Tory’ government, just as we got a Tony Blair government, not an ‘Old Labour’ government.

Nevertheless, it’s worrying that so many Tories don’t just disagree with Cameron’s policies, but are actively hostile towards them, especially when you consider how the Tories will boot out their leader at the drop of a hat. This is something that troubles the swing voters who are considering voting Tory, and Tom is quite right, and politically adroit, to bring it up.

I don’t know ANYONE with the scientific knowledge to know whether we are being told the truth about global warming, sorry climate change as we now have to call it (why?).

So I remain sceptical. The top man on sea levels says it is bollocks that they are rising rapidly. I’ll dig out the link. I’m more inclined to believe him than any politician. It’s a long time since I believe any of those.

By the way, did you know that Lord Mandelson’s native tongue is double speak?

Away with the lot of you.

Rapunzel
Monday 31 August 2009 at 7:30 pm
Tom Harris MP. One man wind-up-the-Tories expert. Such a delight to watch.
********************************************

In a week where Frank Field calls for the UK to cut public spending by £100 billion, Tom Harris winds up a few Tories.

Big whup.

Which one of the two ‘gets it’.

I will probably vote conserveative at the next election.

I am in favour of grammar schools, they are fantastic things. I would not be where I am now without one. Not even close.

I am a climate change sceptic, or sort of. It is probably changing, it may be man made, however we are running out of oil, gas etc. so if climate change is the excuse needed to change to Hydrogen etc. then fine by me.

I like MPs to disagree with the leadership. I respect the ones who do it more often. You don’t agree with all of your parties official views, and I hold you in higher regard then most members of your party for it.

You are elected to be people, and to follow your own beliefs, not to just do as you are told.

Read your autobiography, hohum the only Tom Harris I found on Amazon summerises thus.

“At times in his life, Tom Harris is a dull schoolboy, an apprentice barber, a delinquent husband, an old man with a monkey who drinks at the Green Man Pub, “il professore Harris” at the University of Genoa, and possibly a murderer”

And there was I thinking you had no real life experience.

[...] Tom Harris gets a bit upset about progressivism [...]

“Progressive? Nowehere near”

Nothing progressive about a large “green” tax burden, particularly hitting the poor, all in the name of flawed unproven science.

What is it about no increase in average global temperatures over the lst decade (despite increased carbon emissions) that everyone should be worried about.

Which climate model (eg the hockey stick) predicted this decade long standstill / cooling ? All the models showed a continuos increase.

http://www.dailytech.com/Sea+Ice+Ends+Year+at+Same+Level+as+1979/article13834.htm

“Rapid growth spurt leaves amount of ice at levels seen 29 years ago.”

“The data is being reported by the University of Illinois’s Arctic Climate Research Center, and is derived from satellite observations of the Northern and Southern hemisphere polar regions.”

How is that evidence of warming ?

Also if you want to see an excellent, understandable 20 minute video presentation on climate change at the recent Climate Skeptics Conference, see the attached link :

http://www.heartland.org/events/NewYork09/proceedings.html

Dr John Theon (former Head of NASA’s Weather & Climate progamme)

Is Climate Change Driven by Mankind: My Personal Journey

(Its one of the best presentations that I have seen on the subject)

Erm

I notice Labourlist has posted Labour Polices should comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable

Whoops

OH. Idiot Central, Labourlist. I used to have 6th form debates of higher quality than them. Truly pathetic. “We must this…”, “We must that…”, “We must the other…”

We? I don’t think so. Not half as much fun without the idiot Draper, Labour’s champion.

You are done for Tom. Looking at voting turnout last night. Goes down each time the same govt gets in. Rockets upwhen everyone has had enough. c60% election before 1997. 70% in 1997. And angry as people were then, it is NOTHING compared to the anger out her now.

Go out, Tom, and prepare yourself for annihilation.

By the way; nobody votes Labour in the South West. Please tell me why?

Can’t wait.

“Serious answer? Yes. For details, read my autobiography…”

And you have such a lovely looking wife !

You will be telling us next that you have a deep desire to become the next shadow to the chancellor to the exchequer.

Rapunzel

Not rattled just dissapointed that Tom has reduced himself to Labour carping because people have different views about things. Labour find it difficult to understand free thinking. they will not debate only issue orders.
We just cannot wait to be rid of them.

This post by Tom H has several themes. Firstly, there is a lot of name-dropping. I, personally, do not know these people. Perhaps I should therefore not take part in this discussion – I am not sure.
Secondly, the post covers Education, Wind Farms and the Minimum Wage. Each subject is worthy of a volume of comment on its own – but I suppose that we have to do the best that we can. And so-
Minimum Wage.
Absolutely essential. Only way to stop gang masters importing labour from China to pick cockles in Morcambe Bay and pay them peanuts. Erm……I wonder what went wrong there?
Education.
Dead simple. Take Primary Schools. Government describe minimum standards of Reading, Writing and Arithmatic for primary school leavers. Schools are left to work out how to achieve the standards. No need for micro-management.
Climate Change.
Wait and see for a while. Government sets up GENUINELY impartial panel of scientists, including ALL disciplines (physicists, biologists, etc) to work out ways to gather information to see if there is an actual increase in global temperatures and to assertain whether or not any increase is in fact man made.
(If it is a good idea to spread the production of electricity all over the country by using windmills in order to ensure that terrorists cannot disrupt our essential supplies for government and military needs, then say so).

Easi-peesi. Why complicate things?

“Tom Harris MP. One man wind-up-the-Tories expert. Such a delight to watch.

Keep up the good work. You’ve definitely got them rattled.”

Which is about as convincing as the noises made by MPs in the commons in support of their fellows (it’s usually a fellow).

Tom Harris gets lionised for having his own opinions, contrary to his front bench, and lionised again for objecting to Tories doing the same thing. That’s some propaganda machine.

@Johnny Norfolk

I can think of plenty of great Gordon Brown ringtones:

“Spending will continue to rise and it will be a 0% rise”

“We saved the world.”

“Obama Beach.”

Surely a progressive challenges everything, even if it is contrary to the perceived wisdom.
Back in Victorian times, a number of eminent scientists of the day held the view that if a human being travelled at more that 30 m.p.h. they would die of asphyxiation! Brunel’s proposal for trains to travel at 50 m.p.h. or more was considered impossible by the scientific world. But he challenged the current view, which in spite of its eminent support, turned out to be nonsense, as we all now know.
Why is it wrong to challenge the climate change supporters, or indeed any other perceived view? Surely this is one of the most progressive things that one can possibly do.

You make my point for me, Brian – Cameron is emphatically not challenging climate change supporters, while claiming to be progressive.

I may be being a bit slow-on-the-uptake, but que es Obama Beach?

Loath as I am to agree with tu quoques or give Tory nutterdom any space, but I fail to see the point of this post. Well, actually I do, and that’s the problem.

Assuming that there is an anthropogenic element to climate change (of course there is), policy-level decisions rarely are effected by ranting pamphleteers (i.e. bloggers). Setting aside the benefits of New Deal or tax-credits or, yes, the NMW [1], the best that can be said about Brown’s band-aiding of the economy is that he did an okayish job of un-messing the mess he mess’d up in the first place.

And Labour’s hardly nutter-free – and compared to Jeremy “I’ve Never Met a Terrorist I Didn’t Like” Corbyn, Dorries is a big cuddly tory bear – which is going to come into sharper focus after the GE when, unemcumbered by responsibility, the bitch-fight begins.

What to do, Tom?

[1] Yes, it’s unfair that it doesn’t take into account differing living costs, but my guess its opponents in this thread are not in any danger of receiving it.

Is climate change a bad thing? For me, I mean. Who says the desert will increase in size? Would we not simply divert resources at stopping its spread?

On a related note, where is the UK gov, and your good self, on the banning of import and manufacture of incandescent bulbs?

I personally see it as a ridiculous piece of legislation aimed at forcing people to do something that harms no-one and helps a few.

Why can I not run a 100W bulb using electricity that I pay for? Why can’t I choose how to use MY electricity? When I buy petrol no-one tells me I can’t burn it in my 4mpg Ford GT, oh wait, that’s next.

btw. I use the energy efficient bulbs, but some people complain of migraines and other health issues with the toxic package of CO2 saving goodness and I simply say: let them do what they want with the electricity they pay for. Hell, tax the old bulbs if you want but do not ban them!

Tom, your 9.38 comment – does that mean you think that it’s progressive to challenge the climate change loonies? If so, don’t you think you should rewrite most of your original piece?

Anyway, a label shouldn’t be important – getting the answer right is what matters. It’s a sad habit of the left to demonise those who disagree with them by name-calling. it’s not helpful, really, even to their own cause.

Surely progressive means ‘to make progress’, to improve something, make it better than it currently is. I would think that is the Tory parties aim, to make things better. And lord knows we need them right now as the present administration has made things worse in many areas.

And I don’t see what was so wrong with Grammer schools. I was a bright child, had I been born 10 years earlier I would have gone to my local grammer school. How was it fair to hold my education back so that I wouldn’t get too far ahead of less academically gifted children. That is the inherant problem with the Labour party. It cannot permit people to excel, the cream cannot rise to the surface and must be dragged down to the lower rungs of the ladder. The past 12 years have done more damage to Social mobility than any other administration has since the war.

Tom

Carswell makes 6 points gleaned from Plimer’s book. In all honesty, do you disagree with any of the 6, and more importantly, can you refute (in the true meaning of the word) any of them.

Hello, I am from Scotland and I went to Our Lady’s High School in Motherwell which is a fantastic state school but I don’t have a problem with grammar schools or the fact that people like sending their children there.Your problem is Tom that you can’t stand working class people who go to grammar schools or if they’re lucky a private school because these people stand for everything your party despises about self reliance and not being spongers.
Also I was wondering what your view was on DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson saying that the UUP/Tory i.e. Ulster Conservative and Unionist party’s attitude had been laid bare by MEP Daniel Hannan who called the NHS a mistake and later went on to say that this showed re-emergence of big house Unionism.I would be most interested in your reply?

Most Tory MPs went to private/public schools including young Master Chameleon – Eton, Bullingdon & The City – where he abused pot, alcohol and cocaine respectively.

Sponger?

http://snowflake5.blogspot.com/2009/05/should-taxpayer-be-buying-ginormous.html

Not quite the one bed flat poor Hazel Blears was pilloried for.