IMAGINE, if you will, a fourth term under a Labour government led by a triumphantly re-elected Prime Minister Brown.
Then imagine the ensuing referendum campaign on the subject of electoral reform. That’s the first crucial point: GB has proposed a referendum, not on proportional representation, but on the Alternative Vote (AV), which many regard as barely more proportional than the current system and, in certain circumstances, less so. When Peter Hain, whose long-standing support for AV is well known, approached me to ask if I would support him in the party’s deputy leadership election in 2007, I warned him that his stance on this issue was likely to alienate not only those who supported the status quo but also those who supported full proportional representation.
The second point, which few seem to have noticed so far, is that AV isn’t even Labour policy, and is unlikely to become so before any referendum. I’m not sure what precedents exist for governments holding referenda on policies which they don’t explicitly support. When we held referenda in 1997 on Scottish and Welsh devolution, the government was asking for popular endorsement of their own policy. The reason I don’t see the need for the government to hold a referendum on Scottish independence is because we don’t supprt that policy.
But still we’re supporting a referendum on a policy which some individuals support, others oppose, but which won’t be government policy at the time of the vote, and certainly not Labour policy.
Which brings me to my main point: will the Prime Minister allow members of the government to campaign against AV in the referendum, as Harold Wilson allowed his ministers to campaign for a “No” vote in the 1975 EEC referendum?
And if, after all of this, there’s a vote in favour of change, does the matter rest there? Obviously not, since those, like Chatter 88, would simply pocket that gain and use it as a stepping stone towards their next aim: full proportional representation (probably the single transferable vote, or STV). And what would constitute a “yes” result anyway? Would turnout in the referendum have to be over 50 per cent for the result to be legitimate?
Needless to say, this is not a policy I shall be campaigning on here in Glasgow South in the months leading up to the general election. I could be wrong, but I reckon local voters might be a bit more concerned about unemployment, the economy and the health service than whether those who make decisions in government were elected in their own constituencies with more than 50 per cent of the vote after an exhaustive ballot.














Thursday 1 October 2009 at 10:14 am
Tom – why is a referendum on this “good” yet one not required for constitutional change at the EU…..
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 10:19 am
I cannot understand why Brown has suddenly and seemingly from nowhere become obsessed with PR.
If it’s a reaction to the expenses scandel then it’s ridiculous because it wasn’t FPTP that gave us greedy MPs on the take.Surely an MP elected by AV is just as lkely to claim wrongly than an MP elected by FPTP.
If it’s been his longstanding belief that FPTP must go then why hasn’t he done it sooner? And I believe it was in the Labour manifesto in 1997 and has not been acted upon. A real confusing mess.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 10:20 am
“IMAGINE, if you will, a fourth term under a Labour government led by a triumphantly re-elected Prime Minister Brown.”
I’m sorry. I didn’t read past that sentence (electoral reform bores me anyway, to be fair, as I imagine it does most people.
Instead I was enjoying imagining having emigrated to the beautiful New Zealand South Island and taken up residence in a cave somewhere distant from the cruel cruel world you presented in your opening statement.
I thank you for triggering this rather wonderful dream, Tom. It was nice.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 10:34 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Daniel Byles. Daniel Byles said: Very interesting blogpost@ RT @TomHarrisMP Should this really be a priority for a fourth term Labour government? http://bit.ly/TdmgK [...]
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 10:35 am
Why can’t Labour call a referendum that allows everyone to have a say on what system we want – FPTP, AV, AV+ etc.
At least everyone would know the will of the country and politicians could just act on it. Or is that the problem ?
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 10:43 am
Still trying to do the imagining of the first task. No, sorry can’t do it. Makes it all a bit hypothetical really, doesn’t it?
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:04 am
What I suspect Tom is really saying is:
This policy is a load of male cow excrement, has no chance of being implemented and I will ignore it.
( a lot shorter but no so nicely put)
Meanwhile in deepest sunny Staffordshire all voters are really asking is: “Shall we have AV or FPFTP ? We expect Gordon Brown to win the next election and cannot wait to vote on the issue” .
Food price inflation , rising utility bills, unemployment and debt are minor issues compared to reform of the voting system. “We want change and we want it now”… the local newspapers are full of it. Stoke City’s second year in the Premiership does not get a mention.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:05 am
I afraid cant get me head around
‘a fourth term under a Labour government led by a triumphantly re-elected Prime Minister Brown.’
will persevere though
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:07 am
I wonder if Stu is aware of the delightfully convoluted proportional voting system employed in New Zealand? It can take days after an election even to discover how many seats they’ll be in their parliament.
Perhaps it’s one reason the country seems such an agreeable place in which to live…
PS “As a gerundive, referendum has no plural in Latin; referendums is preferred in English.”
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:14 am
Thank you, Brian. As a pedant, I like to be aware of these things.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:17 am
Too right, Tom – and AV can actually produce less proportional results than FPTP.
It was the Charter 88/Guardianista mob who tabled PR as a response to the expenses crisis. Yet despite the appalling expenses claims, there is no doubt that the UK parliament is less corrupt than those of other European countries with PR systems – simply because individual MPs are less accountable to voters under most PR systems.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:19 am
You are spot on here, Tom.
The thing that gets me is why Brown has chosen AV. Don’t get me wrong, I am no Lib Dem/PR obsessive, but the idea of proportional outcomes is an interesting one, and one that I would consider voting for.
What do we get with AV, though? Like you say, it is no more proportional, and in 1997 style situations would further exaggerate majorities. Feels like change for no benefit.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:25 am
The problem has always been making the case that a PR system allows for local accountability. There is also the issue with the geography that a PR system would cover. As PR systems rely on numbers of votes not what a specific area would vote.
So a very large area but thinly populated, would have less direct access to goverment oversight. And that is the main purpose behind being an MP or MSP to be that regions representative and oversight over goverment.
Though it is fair that large populations vote preferences are now taken into account it is not so fair when it comes to countrysides with little or no access to Goverment. Especially when City and Countryside usually have differing views over things.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:30 am
Tom,
Now that Labour is at war with the Sun, is refusing to appear on the BBC’s flagship political show as well as Sky news … are you now the official media outlet for the Government ?
If so, congratulations.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 11:54 am
Tom
a couple of points:
1) how can your colleagues Iain Gray and Jim Murphy argue that there should not be a referendum on Scottish independence because of the recession, and then Gordon Brown say that he will hold one at exactly the same time in the next Westminster parliament?
2) you are right to say that Labour shouldn’t hold a referendum on Scottish independence because its not their policy. But how can you justify opposing a referendum as proposed by the Scottish Government (whose policy IS independence). Regardless of your views on independence itself, why dont you and your colleagues in the Scots parliament let the people speak?
3) why would voters in Glasgow South (like me) contact you with concerns about the health service?? I would be as well asking my mate down the pub, ure impotent on health matters-you dont have any say nor a record to defend
just like Brown, you cant seem to grasp the practicalities of devolution. 1/2 of his speech last week was of no relevance to Scotland because he doesn’t have the power to implement his ‘policies’. Get ure Labour tanks off the Holyrood lawn‼
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 12:08 pm
Tom,
We all know full well that the only reason Brown has brought this up is to pander to the Lib Dems.
Your leader has no integrity what-so-ever. If reforms and referendums were so important they would have been in Labour manifestos… oh! hang on… but surely if you REALLY meant them they would have been carried out… aha!
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 12:13 pm
Brian – I prefer “referenda”, especially when it comes to the EU.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 12:20 pm
Brian: “I wonder if Stu is aware of the delightfully convoluted proportional voting system employed in New Zealand”
Blissfully unaware and yet somehow still fairly uninterested.
The mountains and the fjords are awfully pretty, though.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 12:27 pm
The second point, which few seem to have noticed so far, is that AV isn’t even Labour policy…
A referendum on the EU Constitution, sorry I meant Lisbon Treaty, was Labour policy, so your excuse for voting against a referendum is…?
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 12:45 pm
I’m completely confused by Gordon’s announcement of his conversion to the cause of electoral reform, especially as AV is a system that is highly likely to lead to a series of hung parliaments.
On reflection I think that may be the idea. It’s a system that exclusively benefits Labour (at least in the short term), it’s similar enough to Libdem policy to attract a few of the stupider of their voters and lets him paint the Conservatives as being anti-reform.
Bravo Gordon. His first clever move. Now watch as he messes it up
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 12:57 pm
From what I’m aware Tom, Kerry McCarthy posted on twitter saying Ed Miliband was being interviewed and explained that the party would be campaigning for a ‘Yes’ vote on AV – so I’m thinking it will be party policy?
AV is not being brought forward as the number one priority either – it’s more for middle class individuals/liberals who think about that sort of thing. For people affected by unemployment I don’t think Brown or the government expect you or I to campaign too much on AV!
Hope that puts your mind at rest, Tom.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 1:30 pm
This is all true. You’re actual policy is (or was) to hold a referendum on the Jenkins proposals. So why don’t you do that then?
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 2:07 pm
As far as I am aware, AV is in fact LESS proportional than First Past The Post – not – as you aver – slightly more. It’s a retrograde step.
And what is Labour policy is to have a referendum on the Jenkins proposals which for some reason [people like Tom Harris] hasn’t happened.
And personally, reform of our undemocratic voting system would alone swing my vote towards any party that genuinely promised it. And I certainly know others who feel just the same.
Support for eg the Lib Dems has not led to support for fair votes. It’s the other way round. For very many, support for democratic voting has led logically to support for parties such as the Lib Dems.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 2:47 pm
“re-elected Prime Minister Brown” re-elected? When was he elected PM exactly? And we are still waiting for the promised EU Constitution- whoops i mean Treaty referendum. Why should we expect you to deliver a promised referendum on electoral reform?
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 2:59 pm
Just more spin. can we have our promised Euro referendum first please.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 4:26 pm
Actually, Labour not allowing the People of Scotland to have their voice is probably going to play into our hands anyway.
Sure, for the record, I’d prefer we have a vote now, even if it meant we lose. The SNP was elected on the principle of holding the vote, and I’d rather we fulfil that objective.
Still, if Labour, the Lib-Dems and the Tories all oppose a vote, it’ll mean re-election is that bit easier, so when we hold a vote in 2012, it’ll have that much more chance of getting a YES from the people of Scotland, so we can ditch Gordon and his mob of inept idiots once and for all….
Sadly, it’d be childish to claim he can’t come home, we’d have to let him in. But my dislike of personally aimed legislation aside, I foresee one of the first acts of the new Scottish Parliament to be the “Gordon Can’t Stand Act 2012″…
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 6:15 pm
Some sort of PR/AV might better be tried out for an elected House of Lords imho.
Multi member constituencies for the most part, but single member ones where a Town/city/county has roughly the appropriate population.
After a bit more than a term of such a body (elections by thirds every 2 years my preference) a Referendum on this and other constitutional questions would make sense, in the light of experience.
conservative, I know . . .
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 6:59 pm
Tom said “IMAGINE, if you will, a fourth term under a Labour government led by a triumphantly re-elected Prime Minister Brown.”
I love a bit of a satire on a Thursday evening.
Thursday 1 October 2009 at 10:18 pm
[...] 3. There will not be any electoral reform for the next five years Early electoral reform always looked unlikely, but for a while there seemed to be a slim chance that the government might hold a referendum on the issue on or before polling day. In his speech Brown ruled that out. If the Tories win the election, electoral reform won’t happen. But this week we’ve also learned that, even if Labour were to win, the prospects of anything happening would be remote because the progressive left is deeply split on this issue. If you’re in any doubt, read John Harris’s account of the Democratic Renewal Rally at Comment is Free, the letters page in today’s Guardian, or Tom Harris. [...]
Friday 2 October 2009 at 8:37 am
IMAGINE, if you will, a fourth term under a Labour government led by a triumphantly re-elected Prime Minister Brown
//
I’d rather not, thanks Tom, but we are already making plans, in the eventuality that this disaster does happen, to leave, joining what is now the largest emigration from these isles since WWI.
Enough is enough.
BTW, AV is not PROPORTIONAL.
Friday 2 October 2009 at 9:16 am
“BTW, AV is not PROPORTIONAL.”
Yes, I know. That’s why I wrote: “GB has proposed a referendum, not on proportional representation, but on the Alternative Vote (AV), which many regard as barely more proportional than the current system and, in certain circumstances, less so.”
BTW, when you write in capitals, does that mean you’re shouting at your computer screen?
Friday 2 October 2009 at 10:01 am
Except when grammatically correct caps are online shouting, except when I use them for EMPHASIS . . .
Just as Ladies glow, rather than sweat, I NEVER shout . . .
“BTW, when you write in capitals, does that mean you’re shouting at your computer screen?” wrote Tom Harris.
Friday 2 October 2009 at 10:56 am
No shouting at YOU
You’re alright, Tom. Just misguided. I thought I’d always vote Labour. Then, belatedly, I grew up.
Friday 2 October 2009 at 10:59 am
Pretty crude electoral tactic, is it not, Tom, to offer electoral reform 12 years after it was promised, and when things don’t look good.
Shocking temper, your man has got, hasn’t he? Hilarious, the end of the interview with Adam Boulton. If looks could kill!
and then bolting with the mike still attached. Has anyone suggested anger management courses to him?
Friday 2 October 2009 at 1:27 pm
Btw, as those who live abroad do not share significant interests with those of us who live in Britain, is it not time for them to be disenfranchised here and encouraged to register wherever they live, if the local can stomach their often unpleasantly arcane (to be polite) politics?
One might keep those who serve HM or British based companies on the registers I suppose.
Well Tom?
Friday 2 October 2009 at 3:06 pm
Luckily for those who prefer to be governed by clear electoral winners rather than a raggle-taggle bunch of losers, the referendum will never take place.
As with the Lisbon Treaty, Gordon will prevaricate.
Though he’ll be out of office, anyway.
Friday 2 October 2009 at 4:00 pm
Labour can go and spin on it. Lisbon.
Friday 2 October 2009 at 5:33 pm
And anyway since we already have manifesto pledges from Labour that we will have referenda on full PR (1997) & the EU constitreaty (2005) who is going to be stupid enough to believe this promise (or indeed any other).
Friday 2 October 2009 at 6:03 pm
@ Sergeant Plodder
re: ‘Pretty crude tactic’.
This actually seems to be one of Brown’s smarter moves. I can’t imagine anyone believes he’s supporting PR for any reason other than narrow political gain but he won’t lose any votes by proposing it and will definitely gain a few at the same time.
The major upside is that when he loses the election, the Conservatives will have a solid mandate to refuse any sort of referendum on the issue. Hurrah!
Possibly that’s why he’s doing it (see my ‘Gordon is a conservative sleeper agent’ post earlier.
Friday 2 October 2009 at 10:36 pm
Almost perverse to suggest that someone who decides what he will do, what he will say and when, is at fault.
Obviously such prefer Chameleon who asked Ashcroft to take over his party, unlike Howard who said “non.”
Brown holds his water, so Tory tomfools blether he dithers.
Saturday 3 October 2009 at 2:17 am
The justification of FPTP (first past the post) must surely be as follows:
1. Say that only 50% of the electorate turn out to vote. The people who do not turn out to vote are grown-ups. They decide not to be involved in the decision-making process as to who will represent them in Parliament.
2. It follows, therefore, that only the electors who vote are significant.
3. Let us imagine that, in a particular constituency, votes cast result in a the following result: Labour candidate 35%; Tory candidate 30%: Liberal candidate 25%; Others, 10%. One must assume that people who vote for a Liberal Candidate do so because they really, really believe that their chosen candidate fully represents their views.
How then can a person, who really believes that LibDem fully represents his views, change his thinking to say that, failing the Libden candidate to become the elected one, his opinion as to who represents his views can dramatically change to the Conservative Candidate? Such a thought can only be true if the voter has no fixed opinion and/or the difference between the Parties is not very important.
4. Once the election goes to a second round, surely the people who did not vote in the first round still have their democratic right to decide.
I think that we are already drifting into the status of a ‘third world’ country. If our voting system becomes complicated, we are heading into a situation where the SYSTEM is more important than the results.
I want to vote for my selected candidate. If my selected candidate gains most votes, then he is elected. End of story.
Saturday 3 October 2009 at 2:56 am
[...] vein, if you wish to understand the pragmatic rear-guard action that majoritarians will fight then Tom Harris’s blog post in reaction to the Prime Minister’s announcement that a commitment to a referendum on the [...]
Sunday 4 October 2009 at 1:35 pm
[...] Tom Harris has a view on the hurdles of an AV referendum while Yapping Yousuf explains if Keynes was weegie. [...]
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