And Another Thing…

Wow.

Who knew it was extreme to want a referendum that Labour had promised on the EU Constitution, sorry, the Lisbon Treaty or to face the prospect of a President Blair with appropriate levels of dread?

This whole country must be full of extremists, Tom! Actually, is ‘extremism’ relative or absolute? That is, if *everyone* wanted to vote on the Treaty, would that be extreme or would it in fact represent the centre of the debate?

‘On the evidence of the past couple of days, there’s plenty of fun to be had in baiting the Tories on the subject between now and the election.’

Really? I would have thought for the duration of the Tory conference, yes. Before the next election, though, there should be plenty of Labour gaffes coming along to suck the glee out of even the merriest jibes about Europe and the Conservatives.

Personally I believe that once in power the Tories will have too much work to do rescuing this country from 12 years of economic incompetence to worry too much about the Lisbon Treaty.

Let’s face it, once it’s ratified there is nothing we can do about it except make the best of a bad job. Unless of course that 10% you speak of starts to rise.

As a tory-voter, I would much rather we did without the huge expense that comes with being a member of the EU, but if the economic benefits outway the costs then we’ll just have to put up with the odd looney law that come out of it. (We can always ignore them anyway.)

OK you don’t care.

Just as you are happy with having aided and abetted in creating a surveillance society and the law isn’t applied without favour.

Some of us, perhaps a small minority, still believe in human freedoms and don’t desire to be controlled by unelected ex-politicos in Brussels.

Call me stupid if you wish but, I would think a UK MP would actually try and defend the UK. Obviously not if they’re labour mps.

Cameron is also a pragmatic politician who realises that it is simply better for the UK that the Lisbon treaty is signed.

There is not a cat’s chance of a sensible debate on a referendum in this country. That’s why parliament must decide, why Cameron must be seen to oppose it(when he doesn’t), and why Cameron is very relieve to have had the decision taken out of his hand.

Tom you write lobnger blogs about the Tories than anything. If only you had put the effort in to sorting out your own party things may have been better.

EUROPE, for me, is one of those “bleah” issues: it’s never lit my candle, as it were. I have much the same reaction to the subject as I do to vanilla ice cream, which is, I suspect, the same attitude as the vast majority of electors.

I’m glad that you think the issue of democracy invokes the same reaction to you as that of vanilla ice cream! I’m sure Emily Davidson would be proud of you.

The EU passes a lot of laws that you or I or anyone else reading this blog can’t change via the ballot box – and your response is? ‘So what’!

I can only presume you’ve not read the Lisbon Treaty or read up on the CAP or the CFP.

…for the record, it’s actually less than ten

Er…no it’s not; you’ve been corrected on that before in your comments on previous blogs.

Your claim is misleading at best, it’s only Statutory Instruments that ‘apparently’ amounts to ten percent of the EU laws, it disregards the other factors like EU regulations, ECJ Judgments and the supremacy of EU law over UK law etc etc – but don’t let the facts get in the way eh Tom?

Cameron, ultimately, despite being anti-EU, is a pragmatic politician; he doesn’t want any government he might form bogged down for its first 18 months in a pointless and costly referendum campaign which could achieve nothing other than isolating the UK within Europe.

I agree with that, Cameron desperately wants to bury the issue; unfortunately it won’t go away – for any party – mainly because a UK Government at some point is going to have to lance the boil over where most of our laws originate from; which is partly our (the electorate’s) fault for not doing anything about it.

Liberal Vision have brought this amusing video to my attention.

It’s a funny argument about the amount of legislation that comes from the EU. It was a study in Germany that said 84% came from the EU, and our government says 9%. The thing no-one asks is, why can’t both figures be correct and the reason for the difference is because our government puts through 53 times more home-grown legislation than the Germans (that not too hard to believe, if we assume that the Germans in general don’t think the solution to any tiny problem is a new law).

And I have to say Tom, for a ‘bleah’ issue, you sure seem to be blogging about Europe a lot lately.

Tom

you read this and conclude ‘Europhobia.’
is putting it mildly and he doesn’t even realise his condition.

mind he probably just bit the leg of a chair or summat!

Your claim is misleading at best, it’s only Statutory Instruments that ‘apparently’ amounts to ten percent of the EU laws, it disregards the other factors like EU regulations, ECJ Judgments and the supremacy of EU law over UK law etc etc – but don’t let the facts get in the way eh Tom?

Of course, IF any government objected to an EC Law, they would implement it in such a way that in reality it would not work.

See Labour and the Hunting Ban.
Implemented in a way designed not to work because Tony did not believe in it : and Labour backbenchers are too stupid ## not to scrutinise legislation properly.

## or too busy claiming expenses.. or whatever .

Mark M. – From a previous post:

“The claim seems to have originated from an article by Roman Herzog, German President from 1994 to 1999, who wrote in German newspaper Die Welt that 84 per cent of legislative acts adopted by the German Bundestag were of EU origin (anyone know the German for “a huge big pair of stinky pants”?).

“But the American academic experts on EU affairs, Andrew Moravcsik, and Annette Elisabeth Töller, found that, as a percentage of all (state and federal) German laws, those implementing EU directives were 34.5% in 2005 and 34.6% in 2006. Even on laws adopted by the Bundestag, a further study undertaken by Töller between 1983 and 2005, looking at Bundestag laws with a “European impulse ” (a wider concept than EU directives) produced a figure of 39.1 per cent — less than half the figure claimed by Herzog.”

In other words, Herzog’s claim of 84 per cent was not the result of “a study”; it was simply invented.

I’ve said it before and I will continue to say it again;

Trying to ‘bait’ the Conservatives on the subject of the Lisbon Treaty (aka the European Constitution) simply serves to remind people that they were denied the vote that you promised them in your manifesto.

This is a vote-loser for you, Tom. It’s not a vote-winner.

It reminds people that Labour can’t be trusted. It reminds people that you don’t value their opinion.

Perhaps “Most people do not obsess about what per centage of domestic legislation comes from Brussels”. Perhaps quite a lot of them do. owever an elected MP whose job is, officially, to legislate over us common types should obsess about it.

From your stuff about referendums I take it you believe that Labour were absolutely right to break their manifesto promise that we be allowed a referendum on it.

So while you are opposed to the electorate having increased power you are comfortable with Brussels having it.

If you are claiming that “only” 39.1% of German regulation comes from Europe while stating above that it is under 10% here you are saying that Britain’s Parliament produces 4 times as much regulation as the notoriously non-regulated Germans. If that is even half way to being truthful is it not a condemnation of the overwhelmingly officious nature of the nanny statist Labour government?

“The vast majority of Tories and libertarians, of course, do little other than obsess about Europe: “Betrayal!” they cry, almost as if anyone were listening to them.”

Thanks for confirming that your party doesn’t listen. To the majority, obviously.

“The problem is, they’re (Tories) united around overt Europhobia.”

While New Labour’s united on treason.

EUROPE, for me, is one of those “bleah” issues
*************************************************

Yeah, me too. Mind you I’m not the one being paid a six figure sum every year to concern myself with bleah issues.

So how many times have you gone through the lobby on bleah European issues? But of course asking ‘how high’ when the whips say ‘jump’ sure stops you having to think for yourself.

Having to get a good understanding of ‘bleah’ issues, my friend, comes with the territory. No-one put a gun to your head and forced you to become an MP.

“…isolating the UK within Europe.”

Do you really believe that myth, Tom?

By leaving the EU, you could say we will “increase our presence as a global player.”

Or some such soundbite. Our greatness as a nation was due to our ability to trade with the whole world.

Our goods balance of trade deficit with the EU was £2.8 billion in June and £2.6 billion in July.

Now consider the billions we give directly to Brussels.

THEY NEED US! So let’s stop prostituting ourselves to them.

Ken Clarke is there partly because he has a poorly deserved reputation for economic expertise, and, when Chameleon decided to set up a “Treasury Front Bench” to include himself, Osborne, and two others, Clarke brought the number with any reputation for economic competence to two.

Alan Duncan, who was successful in business was excluded.

Chameleon seems to have abandoned that particular silly idea now, but he always has another up his sleeve . . . like keeping Osborne in post.

And . . Tom? Perhaps you underestimate how variable the tory attitudes to Europe are?

The Czech republic and Poland are talismans for a certain kind of tory . . .

There’s nothing more dangerous than a blank Czech.

But seriously, I fail to see how DC can avoid offering some sort of referendum on the status of the Lisbon ‘treaty’ and I dare say that most people will support an outright no if given the chance, especially if the outcome of the Euro Constitution is President Blair as our newly unelected leader.

Yeah, doesn’t really matter if our Government signs away sovereignty and disenfranchises the electorate.

Best to stick to important matters like bullying people into making the ‘right’ lifestyle choices, making sure that the police meet their diversity targets and that the children are indoctrinated in the issue du jour.

Great stuff Tom!

Keep reminding readers that your party didn’t give them the referendum it promised.

I wonder when someone will say on TV “The vast majority of people want a referendum – will you reconsider honouring your manifesto promise Prime Minister?”

OT: This should make you laugh (well it made me laugh):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/6261756/MoD-how-to-stop-leaks-document-is-leaked.html

You do realise that this is a Tory blog don’t you Tom?

How many visitors would you have without us foaming right wing nutters?

They are rather out of touch, are they not?

Was it you, Tom, who pointed out that most people care little about our dealings with Europe, though almost everyone is inclined to fear they are being done down by someone?

In fact quite a few people would like the Euro to become our currency. Save messing about and paying fees for conversions when going on holiday.

@Tom Harris

“On the evidence of the past couple of days, there’s plenty of fun to be had in baiting the Tories on the subject between now and the election.”

So. Having fun, Tom? I am, reading the responses! Result, I think.

However, on a more serious note. Do try to concentrate.

I have watched and listened to BBC radio and television and Channel 4 today and I have to inform you that the Conservative position on the EU is perfectly clear. Dave, Boris and Mr Pickles have all spoken, although not necessarily from the same crib sheet.

First. If the Lisbon Treaty has not been ratified by the time the conservatives win a resounding victor at the next election, there will be a referendum. We will all vote “Non” and win loads of friends.

If the treaty has been ratified, (despite letters to the Czech leader begging for a delay to their ratification process) THEY WILL NOT LET MATTERS REST!
They will, at that point, be hammering on the door of the BBC, in order to explain their new, only one at a time, policy. They can’t tell us what it is now, in case they exert undue influence on any Poles or Czechs who have yet to declare a decision. See? Clear as mustard!

At that point, could there still be a referendum? Boris thinks so.

Question: Do you think the Lisbon Treaty should have been ratified?
Question: Should the Irish go for best of three?
Question: Who would cope best if Mr Blair were elected President, Dave or Gordon?
Question: How many Poles or Czechs are watching the BBC or Channel 4 with the express purpose of discovering what the British Tories are going to do?

Rule Britannia!

I don’t know about other areas of policy, but in health, European law has turned the NHS into a cocked hat. GP practices being taken over by multinationals, huge rises in admin due to tender rules, the EWTD directive and their latest offering, the Cross Border Healthcare Directive which was championed by John Bovis threatens turn the not-for-profit healthcare unions in Europe, into privately run companies backed by American health multinationals. I used to be a Europhile, but I would definitely vote against it now.

For a Labour MP to talk about Electoral credibilty whislt posting about Lisbon really takes the biscuit!

Europe may be a “bleah” issue to you Tom, but try to remember it is one issue where your party is vastly out of step with the main feeling in the country (hence the fact that Labour came third behind two euro sceptic parties in the Euro Elections this year, one of which is a single issue pressure group).

The fact is that your lot aren’t trusted on Europe and your leadership have always in the past realised this (at least Blair seemed to), which is why you’ve always had to attach your support for big european projects such as the singe currencty and consititution to a referenda at election time, not so much because the Labour Party beleve in giving the people a say but to spike the Tories guns at the subsequent vote- enabling you to say to the voters and the press that though they may agree with the more euro sceptic Tories its not really a voting issue at this election as nothing will change without the peoples say so. This has ensured that Europe remained a non issue at the 1997, 2001 & 2005 elections.

Unfortunatly for you the dishonest approach taken over the constituition/lisbon treaty has shown that you can’t be trusted , and that your party looks at manifesto commitiments as tactical aids to get one over the opposition, rather than a promise to the voters about future policy and conduct. The Lisbon treaty has shown that ultimatly nothing you print or say in a campaign can be relied upon because the only aim of the Labour party is to gain and hold on to power and that no lie is to great or to shameless to further this end. Even if people don’t think Europe is important they still don’t like being lied to and taken for fools (on a whole range of issues not just Europe) and ultimatly that is why people are angry with Brown and want to see the back of this labour governemnt.

It’s all about electoral credibility…

Was I asleep, or did Lamont/Major try and take us into the Euro, while Brown has resolutely kept us out?

Have the EU Constitution Re-enactment Societies really lost their marbles?

And isn’t the Irish vote a fairly sure indicator of how unemployment, lagging behind the recovery Chameleon wants to scupper, will change opinions wonderfully well on British attitudes to Europe?

Well Quietzapple if you think the europhiles would win a referendum you must be sick at Labour/LudDims for breaking their word about letting us have one. Presumably they are secretly under control of a conspiracy of europhobes.

Au contraire, I wouldn’t bother wasting the money.

How many hospitals would it cost?

How many miles of monorail?

How much earache from the politicos and Nick Robinsons, none of them starving?

The Real issues are largely around potential tory mismanagement of UK debt.

@ Quietzapple.

You seem to be mistaken. Gordon hasn’t kept us out of the Euro for any ideological reasons but rather because he fears losing a referendum on going into the Euro. Public opinion is the only thing preventing Labour from taking us in, full steam ahead.

If they could somehow fiddle it (maybe rename it?) to take us in without a referendum i’m sure they’d have done it.

What a shame then that they never thought of all those poor little unfunded monorails before Labour/LibDems made the promise to have a referendum.

Being so concerned about money & knowing that this incompetent government is racking up debt at a rate of half a billion a day (call that a referendum an hour) you must be keen to see them go.

[...] did such a good job encapsulating the whole thing, but has anyone else noticed the glee with which Labour and the Lib Dems are using the Irish Lisbon vote as a stick to beat the Tories? Doesn’t that [...]