And Another Thing…

“But I have a long memory”. Evidently – your evidence for this is three ancedotes over twenty years. I imagine that similar stories could be culled against any party: the gross behaviour of the Young Conservatives; the arrest of Walter Wolfgang during Jack Straw’s speech; Susan Kramer saying “It’s Charlie’s day,” when Kennedy was forced to resign.

you’ve reached a new low Tom, and thats going some

So what you’re saying is that although they might have changed, you’re still going to judge them on an attitude from 20 years ago??

If that’s the case, and if everyone thinks the same way, Labour should disappear for over 20 years then, as no-one could believe your next few manifestos from promising things you won’t deliver.

“So what you’re saying is that although they might have changed, you’re still going to judge them on an attitude from 20 years ago??”

A typo there. I think you mean to say “four years ago”.

Nasty? Like getting drunk and nearly burning down a hotel?

If you’ve never been to our conference and met the many lovely, intelligent and passionate people in our party, please refrain from judging.

I’m English and I don’t regard the SNP Conference as a hate fest. If there’s a party that hates England then that party is Labour.

True, there is some anglophobia amongst the SNP ranks, but at least they mention England. Labour ministers, even when they are talking about English portfolios such as health, education, housing, neighbourhood policing, transport, etc., refuse to even mention England by name. One has to ask why, and what do they hope to achieve by this negation of England’s political and cultural identity.

Nobody goes on and on and on and on and etc about 20 years ago and more(sometimes hunnreds and hunnreds of years ago) Than Alex Salmond and most of the snp…

but their Nationalists and so thats different.

The sheer hatred that comes out of Nationalists in every online community is breathtaking. Now I know that nationalism can appeal to younger and immature people with a very stark world view, and I know that you can’t tell if the person calling you a quisling because you don’t see the point of independence is genuine, pissed or just kidding on. However it is so bleeding obvious that there is a lot of hatred in the nationalist ranks, particularly for those Scots who disagree with them.

So, it is not as if Tom’s experience on the ground is far removed from what you or I can see today.

Just a few seconds into today’s Scotsman to find this concoction of hatred

“”After Glasgow East, we know how to lose a by-election. After Glenrothes, we know how to win, and we are going to do our very best by the folk in this community.”

Yes Mr. Murphy, you relied on the tried and tested Labour strategy of telling lies in Glasgow East, unfortunately that was no longer enough.

For Glenrothes you brought out your secret weapon, King Billies Army of racist rejects to stuff the ballot boxes with the votes of dead people.

You will try that again at the Glasgow North East election no doubt, but this time your dirty little secret is out, you may find that the outcome is different.

Vote Labour, Vote Orange, Vote Often.”

No political points, no arguments, just smear after smear after smear.

These people are not normal.

I doubt any Nats will be losing too much sleep over your lack of endorsement, matey. Actually, I suspect they’d be more concerned if you didn’t declare your undying hatred.

As for Lord Fireraiser, who didn’t raise a glass at that particular piece of news? Just a shame he wasn’t made to serve the full sentence.

Fair comment Tom. 4 years. Absolutely.

So roughly around the time of the last election. It’s obviously right to hold Labour to account in same way.

Shall we start with Page 15 of the Labour 2005 Manifesto – “Low debt and high employment [snip]we will borrow only to invest, and keep net debt at a stable and prudent level.

Page 16 – “We will not raise the basic or top rates of income tax in the next Parliament.”

Any others ? Let’s be honest – could rip apart the pledges given. Another ? Oh ok, just for fun – let’s skip to the end “Labour remains committed to reviewing the experience of the new electoral systems”. It would be funny is it weren’t so tragic.

So, if Scottish Nats are the “nasty party” what exactly are Labour? And by your own reckoning we should hold this against you until say 2025 as a minimum ?

OK. Will do.

>> Nasty? Like getting drunk and nearly burning down a hotel?

I don’t know if the local arsonists who burnt down an English owned hotel near Helmdsale in the 1990s were drunk or not…

… it is a great shame about SU, and the obsessive pursuit of him across different blogs pointed to an inner violence *here* *and* *now*.

I don’t go out on the doorsteps to promote hate and fear – why would I?!

I give a positive account of Scotland and what we could achieve as an independent nation. It’s the unionist parties who say time and time again that we’re too small, weak and stupid to govern ourselves.

As reported in the Press last weekend, Labour in Scotland appears to be new bestest friends with the Orange Order.
You have the gall to call the SNP nasty after this?

Chris-upon-Thames

I tried refuting a similar accusation on one of these blogs a few days ago, but was moderated off by our wonderful host. A lady called Kiera quoted a letter from the Scotsman or Herald where a Nat was accusing a Labour politician of being a “quisling”, and suggested this was evidence of Nationalist hatred for unionists.

I suggested she should actually read the content of the letter, which accused Labour of failing Scotland’s under-priviledged for decades, but as a committed unionist herself, she couldn’t admit that.

I think my post was spiked because I contended that whilst the SNP would always put Scotland first, Labour, Tories and Lib Dems all owed allegiance to London first, Scotland second, and that they would happily empty their bladder over Scotland if it was politically expedient so to do. (I actually used the same word you did above, which is clearly only allowed if used as an insult to the SNP.)

Accusing Scottish Nationalists of having a ‘hatred’ agenda is empty, and lazy, and has been seen through by more and more Scots for what it is; an attempt to bracket them along with other, more blatantly confrontational nationalist organisations like the BNP or Irish Nationalists, neither of which have anything in common with the SNP.

It is significant, I believe that Labour supporters are now reduced to a continual chorus of low level abuse and ad hominem attacks, since it confirms they have nothing to say when it comes to policy and delivery.

Ah, so it’s a ‘hate fest’ because they attack other political parties such as Labour (who are of course above such things – as I’m sure those fine upstanding ‘gentlemen’ Derek Draper and Damien McBride will attest).
I thought for a moment you were slyly trying to imply that there was a racial element to it. But, of course, you were not.
You’re just another petulant Labourite who has spit out the dummy Tom.

And Chris upon Thames, check out the Guardian comments, or any of the online English nationals and you’ll see the routine racism against Scots that passes for fair comment.
The element of the online ‘nationalist community’ (if there is such a thing) that indulges in such drivel is a very small minority indeed. I understand their frustration (if not their intolerance) when we have a mainstream media which is uniformly unionist despite the fact that a very significant minority of voters believe in independence.
Also, please don’t conflate your rather simplisticly negative idea of nationalism with a belief in independence. We can see the result of nasty nationalism in Norway of course. What a bunch of inward-looking trouble makers they are. Or Finland – another international pariah. Or those nasty Latvians – see how independence leads to evil, insular regimes!
It’s ironic that many ‘nationalists’ now lauded internationally (although they are now rarely referred to as nationalists of course), were reviled and demonised by the establishment of the state they sought to secede from.
The sainted Ghandi was a sly wee bugger once upon a time. Charles Parnell was a supporter of murderers you know.
History will decide – and history is always written by the victors.

Tom

You are a decent man, and I greatly enjoy your blog. However it is important to stand back a bit here. There will always be a “special” tension between Labour and the SNP … tradtionally Labour holds power across large swathes of Central Scotland and for the SNP to grow it has to make inroads into that Labour base.

Although I have been less active in recent years (I’m a Liberal Democrat) over the years as an activist and candidate, much in inner city Glasgow and Edinburgh I have found most activists and campaigners from other parties to be courteous and engaging and rivalry to be good humoured. But we’ve all heard stories of bad behaviour from other parties and all party managers know they sometimes have to reign in their people.

The SNP are not the BNP and independence is a legitimate political belief and topic for debate and discussion. What honourable people can do is not to indulge in abuse and personal comment against those with whom we do not agree and make sure that we keep our own houses in order and our integrity intact.

Chris Upon Thames – where is this hatred of which you speak? I have never seen it. Any links?

>> Having religiously avoided coverage of this year’s conference on account of my embarrassment threshold being too low,

Best not look at this, then.

BoT, you were given the text. If Googling is too difficult, try

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Murphy-Labour-has-learnt-lesson.5747329.jp

>> As reported in the Press last weekend, Labour in Scotland appears to be new bestest friends with the Orange Order.

For goodness sake, man, Labour has yet to say, come on in, welcome! Where’s the Bushmills?

Given that the SNP has said pretty much that to the Scottish-Islamic Foundation, run by the Saeed family (several of whom have been deeply involved in the regional Muslim Association of Britain), where do *you* get the gall to say that?

Oh, actually, you have just demonstrated what others have been saying about casual smeers.

Um, Tom, what’s happening with the chronology of your moderation? It’s like watching whack ‘a mole.

>> We can see the result of nasty nationalism in Norway of course. What a bunch of inward-looking trouble makers they are. Or Finland – another international pariah. Or those nasty Latvians – see how independence leads to evil, insular regimes!

Far be it from me to entertain attempts to crow-bar in unrelated third parties, but recent Latvian history is a *really* bad case to cite if you wish to present an image of racial harmony!

>> I don’t go out on the doorsteps to promote hate and fear – why would I?!

No, you’re on a blog making impenetrable comments.

From:

>> I give a positive account of Scotland and what we could achieve as an independent nation.

To:

>> It’s the unionist parties who say time and time again that we’re too small, weak and stupid to govern ourselves.

Yet again, can I ask what it is which combines “unionist parties” in minds such as yours? If you wish to present the world in terms of a historically aggrevied and benign homogenous mass known as “Scotland” against a malevolent homogenous mass known as “Unionism”, fair enough. It’s just that you cannot then claim to be progressive or non-sectarian.

Also, define time and time again. This wasn’t a bit of hyperbole, was it?

In fairnes Chris upon Thames Labour are telling lies.

Their campaign newspaper in Glasgow North East for example leads with a story which claims that the SNP wants to release 650 dangerous knife criminals from prison onto the streets.

This is a lie.

But so what? It is also a sign of desperation and I think we all know why.

Well, I see the Cybernats are out in force.

But anyone who has spent time with Labour activists will know the voluble contempt they have for the SNP. Nothing wrong with that, of course – but it’s a wee bit disingenuous to tut-tut online about how nasty they are, when you have surely heard the most spiteful venom dripping from the lips of your own party faithful hundreds of times down the years.

Calm down Tom!

There are plenty examples of Unionist activists behaving badly. There are also plenty of nutters on online message boards who support unionist parties and spout offensive vitriol and poisoness hatred in the pursuit of their agenda. Such bad behaviour should be condemned regardless of where it comes from. I think you have perhaps missed the irony of accusing co-called “cybernats” of “poisoness hatred” whilst posting your recent rants about the SNP on this blog.

As an MP from a party that supports renewal of trident, proposes to intern teenage mothers, and took us into the illegal war in Iraq you I also think you should think twice before calling the SNP a “nasty party”.

The SNP is a modern genuine social democratic, internationalist and peaceful party. A genuine alternative to a Labour Party that has become an anathema to its own founding principles.

The way you have slurred decent members of a left-of-centre party on this blog with talk of hate fests is utterly shameful and frankly, from a hitherto respectable MP, an embarrassment. You should do the right thing and apologise.

Pot calling kettle black comes to mind. as far as I am concerned its Labour that is the nasty party.

You have got what you derserve in Scotland a right mess like we have. what a bodge up party Labour are.

Tom

I wouldn’t normally be inclined to disagree with you on much on the subject of all that is wrong with the Scottish Nationalists. However, I do think you run the risk of being a tad selective in condemning others as ‘nasty’. As a Tory, who left Scotland to live in the Socialist Republic of Barking, I have plenty of experience of Labour vitriol and hate towards those who happen to have a different point of view. And on a public level some of your colleagues have delivered very similar diatribes against us of late: David Miliband’s rant about Tories and the Latvian SS; John Spellar branded the Tories the ‘nasty party’ back in April (you may wish to compare notes with him to decide who is worse – us or the SNP); Denis MacShane blamed Tory ‘xenophobia’ for the rise in the BNP (a bit rich that one!). And that is without us trawling through the decade of Militant Tendency. I’ve grown weary of this and I think the public have to. And I think you may owe me an apology for making me feel sympathetic to the SNP. So unclean…

>> You have got what you derserve in Scotland a right mess like we have. what a bodge up party Labour are.

Yes, I have said before that the Labour party does not desire to govern. Problem is, the country doesn’t deserve the bully boys of landed priviledge in the Tories, or the sectarian arsonists and parochial nationalists of the SNP.

Strangely I never conflated the SNP and the BNP, I am not a unionist in any meaningful sense of the word and I do not think that Scotland would struggle severely as an independent nation. All words people seem to want to put into my mouth.

I think the costs of doing so are clearly high against any extremely dubious benefit.

As for lies: this fantastic lie about Labour courting the Orange Order seems to be growing by the day amongst the more deranged nationalists. You would think Monklands never happened… It is clearly a nasty lie that seems to have grown out of nothing more than that particular bunch of bigots trying to influence their members into not voting SNP for obvious reasons.

Finally, yes there are nutty British Nationalists in cyberspace. And there are people happy to throw in the odd anti-scottish bile. However to my eye these look like the same anti-eu, anti-decimilisation, anti-devolution, pro-hunting, anti-immigration nuts and vehemently anti-Labour nuts who think the Megrahi affair was a conspiracy between Alex Salmond, Gordon Brown and the illuminati. I don’t see many Labour supporters calling fellow Scots quislings or traitors, etc.

A day before you with the headline, and I’m Mystic Pog with this bit.

Labour should be very careful about slinging the ‘Nasty Party’ tag around at the Tories in the upcoming pre-election months … their glass house might not withstand the assault.

Knew it was on the agenda, just predicted the wrong target. I shall give my crystal balls a more thorough polish.

Tom i put this comment on the Steamie, some food for thought.
________________

Spot on. Maybe if we had a pro SNP News paper then we to could show up the racist and hate that is flung about in some of the Unionist blogs.

As for the “army of anonymous cybernats ”

George Foulkes, Maddox, Tom Harris all have this compulsive fixation with “anonymous cybernats” yet if they bothered to read the profile of 90% of them, they “do not hide” who they are, including me. In fact I’m very open but maybe to open.

It is not the first time a Labour voting forum user on this news paper published the details of my parents address and it was only a phone call to the police that got it removed so maybe Tom Harris and Foulkes should sit back and think about the danger my family could have been faced with because i let my ID slip.

What about the Scottish Unionist and the Nat Myth bashing blogs? Do we know the real identity of them?

One claims to have threats flung at him yet no one knows who he is.

All he has is his blog to protect, people like me have so much more because we have let on who we are.

I will post this on my blog because i know David Maddox does not like to read the truth.

One last thing!! Why don’t the likes of Tom Harris and Foulkes take on the bloggers such as Iain Dale and Guido? They do far more damage to Labour than every SNP blogger in Scotland.

Hmm too big maybe??

“an attempt to bracket them along with other, more blatantly confrontational nationalist organisations like the BNP or Irish Nationalists, neither of which have anything in common with the SNP.” – obangobang

What, apart from the fact they’re all nationalists?

Dave, the BNP are Nazis.

>> Accusing Scottish Nationalists of having a ‘hatred’ agenda is empty, and lazy,

What, allowing the cup of kindness to runneth over for mass-murderers (and *cheering* Macaskill, for goodness sake, as opposed to acknowledging a tough decision) compared to cheering at the conviction of a Labour politician?

>> an attempt to bracket them along with other, more blatantly confrontational nationalist organisations like the BNP or Irish Nationalists, neither of which have anything in common with the SNP.

As I said to Dave, the BNP are Nazis and it’s grossly unfair to bracket any of the nationalists within Ireland with them. Also, who’s doing this?

All the world is no a mathematical formula. I can think of Salmond as a bloviating cut-price Mr Eugenides, without the charm and dashing good-looks, and reactionary sectarian rabble-rouser, and think of the BNP as being dominated by a core of unreconstructed Nazis.

Two thoughts at once, see.

>> It is not the first time a Labour voting forum user on this news paper published the details of my parents address and it was only a phone call to the police that got it removed

If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt you), it’s reprehensible and I would hope the perp has received an IP ban. Yet, bloggers such as yourself or SU or NatMythBuster are distinct from the ranters – on either side – who populate the bear pit of the comments boxes.

Considerable effort is expended by maintaining any blog, let alone a political blog. Turning up in the box and rabbiting away is a bit like the boring git who comes to a party, drinks the beer and tell everyone how right s/he is.

Although I do think Internet users should have a right to anonymity, I also see the seething cess-pit of Hegelian filth which political blogs tend towards as being made much worse by the absense of repurcisions for one’s comments (as Grant Thoms discovered the hard way).

>> One claims to have threats flung at him yet no one knows who he is.

>> All he has is his blog to protect, people like me have so much more because we have let on who we are.

I recall SU having to refute allegations he was a named individual from (?) Falkirk ‘cos that poor sod was being pursued across blogs and real life.

>> I will post this on my blog because i know David Maddox does not like to read the truth.

Tom clearly doesn’t mind reading [what you call] the truth. Think about it.

>> Why don’t the likes of Tom Harris and Foulkes take on the bloggers such as Iain Dale and Guido? They do far more damage to Labour than every SNP blogger in Scotland. Hmm too big maybe??

Alternatively, they are country-wide bloggers, whereas Tom and Foulkes are Scotland-focused.

You’ll be wiser than I in Scots:

Is this a progression in terms of disgrace:

N’ere do well Rogue Scunner Salmond ?

Oh and I suppose that the principal opponent to The Labour Party anywhere feels obliged to be nasty? So people notice?

The Tories in England, SNP in Scotland?