And another thing…

Lisbon Treaty. Promise. Referendum. Labour Party.

Major irony fail, Mr Harris.

But you know it’s more complicated than that Tom. Immediately after the text you quote there are these words in The Sun article: “No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum.” The issue is what Cameron can do if the Treaty has been ratified.

Source:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece

We should never forget that it was your party that broke its word on a referendum.

I think you’re covering dangerous ground Tom, coming from a party that used the excuse of changing a word from “Constitution” to “Treaty” as an excuse to renege a a promised referendum which could quite easily have been carried out as it was in power at the time! And talking of reneging on promises, how about university fees? What happened there then?

Let’s face it, promises from politicians and political parties carry about the same weight as a “maybe” from the rest of us, and have a shelf life roughly equivalent to that of a pot of yoghurt.

Hang on….I seem to remember someone else giving a cast iron promise on a referendum….
A certain leader of your party, Tony Blair! Not only did he renege on that, he gave back all the money Maggie clawed off the EU, to further his own personal ambitions.
Blair ensured we are trapped into a Treaty we didn’t vote for & a so called democracy we have little say in. Labour have eroded human suffrage in the UK. I for one am disgusted.

Look,Tom, the Only Chameleon promises one can count on are increase in lower limit for Death Duties (IHT) and freedom to fox hunt.

For the rest? Ask Cashcroft:

http://url.ie/2r6w

or the poor of Belize who have noted his convoluted modes of business

and ask Bozo Bojo, apparently a compulsive liar

http://url.ie/2r6v

and the repository of Chameleon’s confidence while he has to sack senior staff members, one after the other.

(We await multiples, but it will come)

TOM! They don’t do truth!

Cameron was always going to have difficulties post ratification, largely because he knows as well as we do, that undoing the treaty if it’s ratified (and Klaus has yet to sign) will be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

It would, however, be much better if he was just upfront about it rather than issuing vague promises like; “we won’t let matters rest there” or promising a referendum on future EU treaties.

This last promise will be of course utter bollocks. There won’t be any future EU treaties, because the Lisbon Treaty negates the need by being self-amending (article 48/7)

More importantly, as I’m sure a lot of other people will point out, Cameron wouldn’t be in this position if the other parties thought that manifesto promises were worth honouring.

It’s still not too late Tom

Bang to rights Tom…as Tim Montgomerie confirms with his load of old twaddle

shall pop over to the tory diary later and annoy them over Camerons ‘cast-iron guarantee’

particulary like his ‘You Dun it first!’..My grandsons (3 and 4 years old) very often say the same thing

You know, when you post something that is so jaw droppingly “WTF???” in your readers that one really has to question how you have become one of Labour’s top bloggers.

Seriously…was there no self-analysis before you wrote this about your own party’s leadership? Or is this another of your “satirical” posts?

Cameron made his cast iron pledge, I suspect, safe in the knowledge that he would never be able to carry it out. We all knew that once the Treaty was ratified, that would be the end of it. It saves him having to spend the first year in power embroiled in the Europe issue. Mealy mouthing platitudes such as “We will not let matters rest” kept supporters on board, and they may well stay on board because they are so desperate for power. They may even stay on board for a while after he finds he needs to realign the Conservative MEPs with Merkel and Sarkozy, if they’ll have him, in order to have any influence at all in European decisions.

His options now are to talk tough, look severe, make a speech about restoring some power to the UK, and then to lie low and hope it all blows over, or to have an “In/out” vote, which he certainly doesn’t want.

What would he do if the people said “Get out?”
What would he do if the people said “Stay in?”
Which side would he campaign for?

However, I see in today’s Observer that Lord Ashcroft, billionaire and influential big cheese who is systematically buying the Tory party, has been ferrying Little Willie Hague around the world, to meet Hilary Clinton and others. Once he gets evicted from Belize, a desperately poor country which he also appears to own, he’ll be able to move here, start paying tax and tell Dave what to do about Europe.

It’s still part of the whole “Standing up for Britain against the big bad EU” mentality which Labour and Conservative alike have perpetuated. A ludicrous depiction of the EU, but neither party have presented in different terms.

The client relationship of this country with the EU was sealed long ago.

It’s silly to blame Cameron for Schumann, Monet, Heath, Thatcher, Major and Blair.

The EU is like religion. It was all dreamed up long ago,for entirely outdated reasons, and you need constant transfusions of faith to protect you from its absurdity.

Cameron really has broken the mould. Normally we have to wait until politicians are elected into government before they break their cast iron guarantees

What we have learned from the whole LisbonConTreaty process is that a Labour Manifesto isn’t worth the paper it was printed on. Any promise and any commitment can and will be reneged on, if it suits the Party leadership.

I understand that once the LisbonConTreaty is ratified, it becomes part of the original Treaty of Rome so a post-ratification Referendum will not automatically lead to de-Ratification of the LisbonConTreaty. However, no Government can bind the hands of a successor Government, so Cameron will have to decide how to best recover the sovereignty Labour gave away by lying and breaking a promise to the British people.

Cameron will have to make policy based on the circumstances which apply when/if he takes Office. But the British people won’t forget that it was LABOUR which broke its promise. No voter in their right mind would ever again trust anything written in a Labour Manifesto.

Chameleon has had to adopt Bullingdon porkie pie tactics because of UKIP:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/table/2009/jun/09/european-elections-elections-2009

In the Euro Elections UKIP polled more votes than the Tories, who should have been riding high, in some Westminster constituencies.

Few honestly believe that he can obtain an overall majority – as Heseltine said at the weekend. UKIP on 4%, perhaps more, threatens his chances of leading a hung parliament, and might help bring a fourth Labour Government in a row.

Bit prosaic perhaps, more likely folk will sit down and decide they want a good government rather than a lot of shilly shallying, Big Time Royal Mail Privatisation fiddles (Sell at any price likely), fox hunting and IHT devilling.

Not only did he give a cast iron guarantee, but he signed it too – his signature featured below the article in question.

Here’s an interesting take on the story, concerning how The Sun is now in the driving seat: http://bit.ly/3xxYZq

Tom, I thought you would have learned by now that writing such a post would bring you a mountain of referendum reminders.

I am left wondering about the psychology of it all. Did you post this to make us think that:

a) The Tories are liars too, so we might as well still vote Labour, because things aren’t going to be any better under Blu Labour?

b) The Tories won’t allow us a referendum either, so that lets Labour off the hook?

or, conversely,

c) You actually want Dave to win the election, and that’s why you keep reminding us of New Labour’s broken promises, to increase the resentment we feel for the worst government in British history?

I look forward to your answer: a, b or c!

Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee, if Cameron becomes P.M. the country will go down the crapper in no time at all.

Not even in No.10 yet and already he has broken a promise to the electorate.

I’m suprised at you Tom.

You appear to think that a Conservative victory is assured, defeatism from a former junior minister I’m astounded.

Tom, I recall a Roald Dahl story in which someone collects the tears of his paid subjects for his incomprehensible pleasure.

When will you be offering your wanna be tory ( and mock tory) trolls their proper recompense?

Forget about Cameron, Blair, Brown etc – as a Labour candidate in 2005 Mr Harris promised his own constituents that he wouldn’t vote to approve the treaty without them having the opportunity to vote themselves, first, directly, in a national referendum.

So how did he do on that, when it came to the Commons votes?

And please don’t give us all the two-faced garbage about it not being the same treaty – even the BBC’s Mark Urban repeatedly referred to “the constitutional treaty” on Newsnight last week.

Like it or not, the European Constitution was rejected by France and Denmark. It is dead, we could keep a promised and have a referendum on it too, but it would be pointless.

So after it died something needed to be done. So yet another treaty was introduced, as opposed to replacing all the previous treaties with a constitution. And the UK ratified it as it has ratified every other EU treaty.

People who bleat on about the Lisbon Treaty being the same as the EU constitution have either rather severely missed the point or are guilty of a crude and ill-thought out deception.

“Even the BBC’s Mark Urban” – ???

A slip of the lip by a BBC reporter indicates no more. The beliefs of the whole shebang of them, including former Young Conservative National Chairman Nick Robinson – may signify merely that they follow the ideas of the Billionaire Press.

Even David Chameleon is going to accept the ratification and effects of the Lisbon Treaty shortly.

Can we then expect every Europhobe to pipe down, or does such generalisation only obtain effect when it suits?

Yes, Chris upon Thames, even though its legal effects are virtually identical, of course the Treaty of Lisbon is a different treaty to the Constitutional Treaty rejected by the French and the Dutch.

They’ve got different names, for a start, and for some people just a change of name would a sufficient excuse for them to renege on their referendum promise.

It’s rather like this.

I’m your boss, and one day I present you with a complete new employment contract. But I won’t force you to accept it, if you don’t like it.

You don’t like it, so I take it back and instead I give you a sheaf of papers to insert into your existing contract. This time, I don’t give you any choice in the matter.

So you insert the new sheets and, lo and behold, your existing employment contract has now been amended so that it’s almost identical to the new contract you previously rejected.

If and when the Lisbon Treaty comes into force, how long will it be before the European Court of Justice declares that the newly amended treaties are in effect the EU’s Constitution, but for the benefit of the citizens they need to be tidied up – “codified” – like a proper Constitution?

Sanjeev Gandhi
…that one really has to question how you have become one of Labour’s top bloggers.

*********************************************

Let’s face it being, ‘one of Labour’s top bloggers’ is like being, ‘one of the Womens Institute’s top WWF wrestlers’.

@Quietzapple 6.24 – why not pop over to ‘Cranmer’ for a taste of what to expect under a post-Lisbon EU (“The EU’s Real Philosopher Guardians”)?

Pot calling kettle black come to mind.

Is there a problem with blogger at the moment, Tom?

Nothing a politician says is worthy of anything other than cynicism. But why you chose to highlight your own parties lies over this very issue, a manifesto commitment rather than a tale to a rag I can’t imagine.

Can you do the electorate a favour and remind your colleagues not to claim expenses for wreaths this year please.

You mean like the Tory MP James Gray? Sure, I’ll remind them.

Denis

There are none so blind as those who would not see.

Yes: the Lisbon Treaty is similar to the rejected constitution. So what? It has been ratified by every member state in the same democratic process as every previous treaty and it is necessary for the proper functioning of the EU.

Chris upon Thames: “People who bleat on about the Lisbon Treaty being the same as the EU constitution have either rather severely missed the point or are guilty of a crude and ill-thought out deception.”

What, like Valéry Giscard d’Estaing?

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/valeacutery-giscard-destaing-the-eu-treaty-is-the-same-as-the-constitution-398286.html

Obviously a man with honour would never commit the sin of omission would he Tom?

Your Cameron quote had a little more to it didn’t it Tom.

As I recall something about:

“No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum”

A cynical person might suggest that is an unfair attack. Selective quoting.

Of course Cameron wrote that when he was assuming Brown was about to hold an election. (Brown had pretty much said so)

Brown then chickened out of doing the honourable thing (shock horror) and chose not to seek a mandate (Tony’s full term just another example of treating us like fools whilst spending our money). Then Brown proceeded to ratify without a referendum at all.

(How does it feel to draw pay after being elected on a manifesto commitment you have failed to live up to? Any hint of shame Tom? Still calling yourself a democrat? Mirror still look OK to you in the morning? Have you the sack to address this question?)

The best you could come up with I would guess is some wishy washy (lie) about the difference between the Constitution and the Treaty.
Anybody that did try that is beyond the pale. A Wormtongue for sure. This post of yours is pretty tactical and frankly a little beneath you.
The old expression comes to mind about glass houses and stones, except that in your house there is no longer any glass still intact.

Watching otherwise good people proposing arguments that make themselves resemble freshly caught fish floundering for oxygen would be a source of amusement were not the quality of my life the end result.

Tell me again.

What is the EU for?

EFTA handles trade.

NATO handles peace.

UN handles climate change.

INTERPOL handles inter-crime.

Is it something mystical?

Valéry Giscard d’Estaing wrote the failed EU Constitution.

The far shorter Reform (Lisbon) Treaty is engraved on his heart.

Please address this point Tom.

How do you feel about the lack of a referendum? Was that not a breach of your manifesto commitments (in spirit if not letter)? Is this an acceptable way to govern?

You are usually very frank, be frank about that.

You are the government. DC is the opposition. How about addressing the real reason why we will not have a manifesto whether the Tories win or not.

Obviously you are under no obligation to respond to my hot air but I cannot really see how you can maintain the two positions you do at present with a clear conscience.

There’s some serious hypocrisy here by the Tories.

On the one hand, Labour’s manifesto promise is broken because the Constitutional Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty are exactly the same thing even where they’re not (even where the High Court rules that they’re not). And on the other hand, you have to read additional words into Dave’s “cast iron guarantee”, even though they make the guarantee meaningless. (Although it seems that you don’t have to take account of his previous paragraph where he slags off the PM for not holding a referendum on a treaty that wasn’t the subject of the promise to hold a referendum.)

So, Labour – context inadmissible; Tories – context required. Righto.

Slightly off topic, but relevent in regard to Toms comment re a Tory MP needing reminding not to claim wreaths as expenses. ‘..Colleagues…’ refers to those in Westminster and in Democtratically elected positions. Boris Johnson sits in the same ‘made a mistake’ pile as Balls, I don’t care which party they sit in. Claiming wreaths as an expense is the most despicable of all the expenses issues in my book. It shows complete contempt for the tax payers and those supposedly being remembered.

While some people who respond to articles by Tom, may well be Tory supporters, it doesn’t apply to all.

Some of us think the British Democratic system is rotten to the core.

I think my moniker and website link may give a hint where I sit.

If there is ever again a Conservative Government there will have to be a referendum to confirm, as seems most likely, that the British people wish to remain in the EU.

The alternative is that Carswell, Hannan, and others who will be as determined as Major’s bastards, will not let up. Chameleon (or Osborne’s) only shot to stop them will be a direct appeal to the people.

The issue would have to be put to the people.

Chameleon will not get some imaginary concessions from the rest of the EU. Less chance than there is of a Blair Presidency.

When he loses the GE, if the Tory Party survives in something like its present form, the sixth tory leader in 13 years will have to bring in some sort of oath, for members, inc MPs & MEPs to agree the new leader’s position – In or Out?

We shall see.