ACCORDING to Professor David Nutt, mere democratically-elected politicians cannot be trusted to implement important policy decisions. Instead, dead brainy types – like him, for example – should be allowed to run the country without all this democratic accountability and such stuff and nonsense.
Nutt said:
Until Gordon Brown took office there has never been a recommendation about drug classification from the council that has been rejected by government. Gordon Brown comes into office and soon after that he starts saying absurd things like cannabis is lethal… it has to be a Class B drug. He has made his mind up.
We went back, we looked at the evidence, we said, “No, no, there is no extra evidence of harm, it’s still a Class C drug.”
He said, ‘Tough, it’s going to be Class B.”
The damn cheek of these pols who have opinions of their own! Don’t they realise that the job of government and parliament is simply to rubber stamp the decisions of their advisers?
Advisers advise – ministers decide. It’s a fundamental principle of democracy. We cannot and should not farm out every policy decision to unelected advisers. Ministers should treat the advice they receive seriously, of course. But then they should apply their own political judgment. Some will be horrified at the suggestion that politics should even come into it, but that’s what democracy is about – elected politicians being paid to exercise their political judgment on behalf of their constituents and the country.
When the government (rightly) rejected advice given to it by the Electoral Commission a few years back, the LibDems in the Commons were outraged. Well, of course they were – that’s what they’re there for. What’s the point of setting up a body like the Electoral Commission when you don’t accept its recommendations, they asked, their collective bottom lip quivering. For a party which never stops whining about how undemocratic the UK allegedly is, the LibDems are surprisingly eager to delegate sovereignty to other people.
The actual arguments about cannabis reclassification are another issue. The point is that if politicians are seen to make the wrong decision, after listening to all the advice, then they will pay the price for that at the ballot box. Appointed advisers can’t, by definition, be held accountable in that way. All they can do is throw their toys out the pram, ignore the collective responsibility that’s necessary for government to work and encourage their fomer colleagues to throw a strop as well.
One last point: Alan Johnson could so easily have kept this controversy alive by equivocating about whether or not to sack Nutt. “I have complete faith in Professor Nutt,” you can imagine him insisting to reporters as the saga wore on, inflicting more and more damage on the government during the three or four weeks leading up to Nutt’s inevitable dismissal. Instead, the Home Secretary acted refreshingly quickly and decisively, and he should be congratulated for displaying the smack (no pun intended) of firm leadership.














Sunday 1 November 2009 at 11:10 am
It’s definitely time for policy-based evidence making.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 11:26 am
I’ve come late to this issue, but am sort of with you on this, and blogged in a (sort of) similar vein. Check the comment from Phil on my site though – seems pretty sensible to me.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 11:40 am
“Instead, the Home Secretary acted refreshingly quickly and decisively, and he should be congratulated for displaying the smack (no pun intended) of firm leadership.”
Couldn’t agree more, Johnson rose in my estimation considerably.
Amid all the discussion, some of it posing as learned, the most significant aspect of this matter is that some kids – perhaps the more feeble minded end of the spectrum – will interpret the media takes on Nutt’s pronouncements as meaning that LSD, cannabis (inc the stronger versions) & ecstasy pose little threat to their and others’ safety.
Easy to imagine a teenage driver telling the relatives whom he has bereaved:
“I wouldn’t dream of drinking and driving, but I thought cannabis would be ok, that Prof Nutt said . . ”
And Prof Nutt behaved with criminal irresponsibility: he lives in C21th Britain, not Plato’s academy where debate was the preserve of supposedly dispassionate intellectuals.
He should have quit and conducted a lower profile campaign. His operation will only make it harder for any necessary action to be taken.
“Get Real! Smell the coffee! Have you got it yet!” Should be the usual trite cries of the right and extreme left, but . . .
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 11:42 am
“…mere democratically-elected politicians cannot be trusted to implement important policy decisions…”
Noth ey cannot – witness last 12 years.
The problem is our democratically elected politicians are not democratic, instead a self-intersted, self-serving oligarchy
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 11:59 am
Not sure I agree with this statement “elected politicians being paid to exercise their political judgment on behalf of their constituents and the country.”
I thought elected politicians were paid to represent the views of their constituents.
In any case, you don’t seem to be disputing the science, so to paraphrase your argument
The science says cannabis is not very dangerous, the politics says it is.
That is the thin end of a very dangerous wedge.
The science says the UK debt is unsustainable, the politics says it is.
The science says we don’t have enough helicopters in Afghanistan, the politics says we do.
Oh dear.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 12:05 pm
You seem to of missed the point. If you ask for scientific advice you can’t argue with the feedback. Nutt was merely stating fact – any government that can sack scientific advisors for that are clearly trying to deceive us. The truth is the government has already decided the facts, and Professor Nutt’s reasoned arguments are uncomfortable listening for the Brown regime.
Completely disgusted by this behaviour – Alan Johnson must go now! The country will hold you accountable for not heeding scientific advice in May.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 12:22 pm
Quite happy for “Advisers advise – ministers decide.”
However, what’s the point of having advisers that only agree with your viewpoint.
I’m afraid it just shows that Alan Johnson can’t bear people who disagree with him.
The Government have stopped listening to the electorate, stopped listening to any advisers and is sounding increasingly like a bunker mentality.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 12:38 pm
Scot obviously not eponymous, the Scots have pretty good hold on what constitutes science and what doesn’t.
But first get a hold on reality.
Current levels of UK debt are far below those which have been maintained in the past:
http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn26.pdf
Drugs like cannabis, LSD & ecstasy are dangerous. The fact that marijhuana is less carcinogenic than tobacco (I recall from my ’70s reading) notwithstanding.
Notable that the Lib Dems were incensed over Nutt’s sacking. The party with no perspective other than an electoral abyss will be recruiting from your irregulars next, Tom!
ROFLMAO
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 12:51 pm
Legalise all drugs.
Treat those who commit crimes while intoxicated and addicted more harshly than those who are not.
In short, intoxication and addiction in a criminal is treated as an aggravating factor attracting a higher penalty.
Three strikes and the death penalty kicks in.
The debate centres on the concept of harm. The truth is that not all of us have equally addictive personalities. Some of us can try any number of hard and drugs and still be OK.
And there are those who are addicted to over-eating. These people should just be allowed to eat until they go pop, and this includes their children too.
Since obesity is a feature of an affluent society with a history of welfarism where the poor, ignorant and unemployed can sit around watching daytime TV and eat themselves fat, a Libertarian minimum state would instantly solve the problem of underclass obesity by abolishing the welfare state.
This exemplifies one of the main planks of Libertarian Eugenics. It is better than the state sterilising and euthanasing people. You just let them destroy themselves.
Cigarettes and drink can cause more quantifiable long term harm to health than Ecstasy and cannabis, of course.
But what is harm? Societal harm or individual harm?
And how is it quantified?
Why would someone’s ill health matter to society if there is no NHS?
Is the NHS beneficial to Britain’s long-term future?
Civilisations and nations have risen and flourished without a free health service, so I rather think not.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 12:52 pm
Yep. I agree with you, Tom. Once advisers start to make political judgments then they lose their impartiality. Paradoxically, it seems to me that Alan Johnson’s actions will strengthen scientific/ advisory impartiality.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 12:54 pm
What business is of government to prevent the voluntary ingress of any substance to my body, so long as it causes no harm to others?
If illegal drugs force people to burgle, mug or steal to pay for them, and they do,legalise them and destroy the world’s biggest, most murderous business in the process.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 1:02 pm
Quietzapple
Like Johnson, you should consider the facts. If what you say has any element of truth to it, why does Holland have a lower number of cannabis smokers than the UK?
You should worry less about others interpretation of data, and consider your own a little more. Very slowly, here is one of his arguments :
600,000 people ride horses a week
1m Ecstacy tablets are taken a week (by roughly the same number of people horseriding).
On average 100 people a year die from horse riding.
On average 30 people a year die from Ecstacy.
Ergo, horse riding is more dangerous a passtime than taking Ecstacy. Very simple – but not a set of facts Alan Johnson could assimilate.
Ecstacy is a Class A drug – whereas the Royal family ride horses. This isn’t about Labour caring for the public – it’s about social control and class politics.
…of course, horse riding is much safer than many high risk activities, some of which endanger third parties too. If you move from this issue to motorcyclists the chances of fatality (for both primary and third party) goes through the roof.
This silly sensationalism has got us nowhere, lets get more people like Professor Nutt to give us hard facts on these subjects, so we can understand risk based activities and their associate social effects to a far greater extent.
“Easy to imagine a teenage driver telling the relatives whom he has bereaved:”
…you carry on imagining things. I personally would like more solid facts by right-minded people that don’t daydream non-existent fatalities. You should research cannabis related fatalities more before proceeding to make a fool of yourself. Maybe Johnson can sack the statisticians for giving us numbers that (once again) contradict government policy.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 1:06 pm
Oh no, we can’t have those so-called ‘clever’ people trying to tell us what to do, far better politicians.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 1:15 pm
As a Libertarian, I believe the State has no role in telling anybody what they can put into their own bodies.
Mind you, I’ve also been to Scotland. If drugs were legal north of Hadrian’s wall, God knows what the shortbread and Dundee cake would be like.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 1:22 pm
I seem to recall George W Bush saying he was “The Decider” and he as another great example of what happens when politicians ignore the science and go with “their gut”, or what’s politically expedient.
How can you ask for scientific advice (facts) and then turn round and not only ignore it but go completely against it then sack the scientist who is understandably frustrated at being ignored?
And yes, science trumps democracy. When you have an unpopular decision to make that is backed up by the science you have to go against the will of the people. On this issue, however, there has never been a tested will of the people. Do we know what the public’s actual opinion of cannabis is? Or are we simply being told not to use it for our own good even while the science says otherwise?
Please explain that one to me, Tom:
Either the government has to ask the people what they think about cannabis use (democratic principles and all);
OR, it has to follow the science (scientific or meritocratic).
Why is this government doing neither? Is it not the very definition of a totalitarian regime to make laws based on neither popular will nor scientific evidence?
Or, and this is just a wild supposition, is the government maintaining cannabis as class B because so many people use it that it means the police have a lot of leverage over anyone caught in possession and the government/police can then keep records on those people?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 1:38 pm
http://heresycorner.blogspot.com/2009/10/abusing-evidence.html
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 1:39 pm
@Quietzapple Current levels of UK debt are far below those which have been maintained in the past:
Er…that report you’ve linked to looks like a report from 2002 measuring debt up to 2000 when IIRC Brown was still using the previous Tory spending plans, before he began his spending spree from 2001 onwards.
Try this one which is not only far more recent but includes all those lovely off-balance sheet liabilities as well:
http://tinyurl.com/yewe2mf
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 1:55 pm
Professor David Nutt may or may not be right on the narrow issue regarding cannabis drug classification. But there is the wider concern of reducing all drug use throughout the United Kingdom.
there is morality and there is science the question is who is to be the master?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:08 pm
Nutt has been wasting his time in this committee. No government has the balls to come to terms with the fact that “the war against drugs” was lost years and years ago. No government has the balls to admit that they could cut crime very significantly by de-criminalising drugs.
In the 60s, GPs could prescribe heroin to addicts. It is ever since that was stopped that we have had a “drugs problem” in the UK.
Having seen both my parents – intelligent, fine people – kill themselves with alcohol, to treat alcohol and tobacco differently to the likes of weed & MDMA & mushrooms is a palpable hypocrisy.
The existence of the committee is a pretence in the first place, as we now clearly see.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:28 pm
Girls and boys – do check out Old Holborn’s link above, which leads to a telling article on the yawning chasm between what the government likes to put out, and reality.
Oh and by the way, it seems Prof. Nutt is not the only one pissed off with being treated like a dick. Lord Irvine spilling the beans as well on his attempt to stop some bloke called Blair (anyone remember him?) launching his all-out assault on the constitution.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:29 pm
@Paul Williams
The research paper I linked to explains the genesis of Uk National Debt in the context of Fiscal Policy, better you read it than dismiss it.
You want to include all sorts of liabilities & corresponding assets, then you are not talking about debt.
If you want to troll, tell us how the wicked UK State hasn’t repaid the debt from the Napoleonic Wars . . .
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:33 pm
It shouldn’t be long now before Labour declare the world both flat and the centre of the Universe.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:39 pm
Jacqui Smith was still sticking to the line that Professor Nutt’s comparison of the risks of death between Ecstacy and horseriding was ‘outrageous’ on Question Time the other week, and gloating that she had forced him into apologising for it. It was a pretty sickening display, even for her. The fact that the relative risk of the two activities was a scientific fact seemed to have completely passed her by. But then what is actual science in comparison to a headline in the Daily Mail…
Nutt was sacked for continuing (separately from his unpaid role on ACMD) to publish academic works on the dangers of drugs. Because that research (as does most scientific research on the topic) showed that the Government’s policy on drugs now wasn’t even remotely ‘evidence’ based, the Government had to get rid of him, lest the public know the truth.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with Government not basing drug classification on science, necessarily. But what is wrong is the way in which the government wants to use the veil of science (and, where necessary, fake science if the real stuff doesn’t give them the result they want) to cloak political decisions. If they admitted that cannabis and ecstasy are far safer than plenty of legal drugs and activities, and then just said, ‘but we think they should stay illegal for X reason’, I’d have a lot more respect for them.
As it is, they’re only interested in science when it gives them cover for some decision. If it tells them the world is round, when they’re busy preaching to all and sundry that it is flat, then they either ignore it, or condemn it, or sack the messenger who tells them it. That’s treating science with contempt, and they can hardly be surprised that so many scientists are appalled.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:41 pm
“elected politicians being paid to exercise their political judgment on behalf of their constituents and the country.”
But that is not what is happening. They are exercising their political judgement on what is expedient for their party.
They set up one dimensional ‘devils’ and then compete to see who can be toughest.
It’s utterly pathetic.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:43 pm
I quite agree. Iraq war: Bush decided it needed to happen. Tony took a political decision to go ahead – cobbled together a childish and amateurish justification without any real facts. No problem, if it was wrong, he’ll face…..er……er…?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:49 pm
Have to agree with Paul on this one Tom. Another example of Gordo et al losing the plot (see Gurkha’s, 42 days, 10p tax).Either drugs policy is based on the prevention of harm, and so based on *proven* scientific fact, of which none of you sorry sods are capable of stating, but the ernest Prof. Nutt IS, or we go to a purely political system, where drugs are “good” or “bad” based purely on a moral or political viewpoint.
At that point, a referendum asking the people “which of these drugs should be illegal?” should be held, with the illegal ones presumably placed A, B or C class depending on which ones scarier in the Sun that week.
Personally, I prefer science to half-formed dribblings from “political-science”-holding morons whose sole claim to managing to convince the local Branch to nominate them in the safe seat they all hold.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:51 pm
“Advisers advise – ministers decide”
I agree, although it’s odd to expect the taxpayer to pay for expert advice only to reject it, unless there are very good grounds to do so.
Very good grounds were provided in the case of the smoking ban: there was no decent evidence, just disreputable stats, a shrill, unscrupulous lobby and a Chief Medical Officer who threw a tantrum.
WRT Prof Nutt, I wasn’t sure why he had to be sacked – why wasn’t it enough to reject his advice? Then a Home Office spokesman helpfully provided the answer: Prof Nutt had dared to go off-message and this Government won’t let anyone undermine its political agenda.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/30/drugs-adviser-david-nutt-sacked
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 2:57 pm
I objected to the way, in effect, Prof Nutt sought to promote the use of cannabis, LSD & ecstasy.
And such mentions always draw those who want various liberalisations, and those who want cannabis prescribed for pain relief.
That Holland is a Nirvana is nonsense:
“Despite the high priority given by the Dutch government to fighting illegal drug trafficking, the Netherlands continue to be an important transit point for drugs entering Europe, a major producer[11] and leading distributor of cannabis, heroin, cocaine, amphetamines[12][13] and other synthetic drugs, and a medium consumer of illicit drugs.[14] ” WIKI
Their shift in attitudes has not done us much good it seems, has it? The reports do seem to suggest that familiarity with cannabis has led to drug users adopting other drugs, as I would not have expected 30 years ago to have been the case.
But the basic points are good, Nutt was wrong to proceed as he did, and there should be some sort of code of conduct which applies when such advisors resign.
His vindictiveness towards the PM & etc is not a good excuse for increasing the risk to Uk children and young adults.
I suspect the liberalisations are en route to the suggestion that we are not co-operating with the Columbian etc drug cartels as constructively as we should . . .
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 3:09 pm
@Krzysztof
Your comparison between horse riding and taking ecstasy tablets is complete nonsense.
The fitness of people riding horses and of those taking ecstasy when they actually do so is obviously key, to anyone who thinks beyond the crude (and I’ve not checked them) statistics.
If the numbers of kids in cannabis, LSD & ecstasy related incidents rises over the next month there will be a far better case for saying that Nutt’s scattergun approach to promulgating his views were obviously detrimental.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 3:16 pm
Science: Actually, the world is getting cooler.
New Labour: Spend €90 Billion a year and ignore “Science”
Science: Erm..whisky and tabs are much more dangerous than Weed and E’s.
New Labour: Off to the Gulag with “scientists”
Science: More people die of tripping up over elf poo than swine flu.
New Labour: Innoculate EVERYONE
Science: Everything is OK, actually.
New Labour: You ungrateful bastards. 90 days for all of you.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 3:53 pm
“democratically-elected politicians cannot be trusted to implement important policy decisions.”
democratically-elected politicians…like Peter Mandelson?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 4:08 pm
In this case the government has taken a decision for moral reasons.
That isn’t necessarily a bad thing – deciding whether to have 10 Eurofighters or 100 kidney machines is a moral one and I understand that.
However, on this issue your government’s morality is not only trumping my liberty, which in itself should give you pause for thought, but it is going against science.
Your morals are trumping my liberty AND scientific evidence. And you have not even laid out a decent case for why that moral decision was made. Or is the government just full of “deciders”? Seems to me it’s full of something.
Disclaimer: I do not use cannabis, have no wish to use it and wouldn’t if it was legalised.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 4:16 pm
Old Holborn;
You appear to imagine that everything which contradicts the well established, conventional views supported by commonsense and evidence is true.
Try a bit more soma with whatever it is, perhaps?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 4:22 pm
Wrong again. By appointing panels of “experts” the Government tries to fool us that it is designing evidence based policies when in truth it is flying by the pants of yesterday’s Daily Mail. This is deceitful and dangerous. OK, sack Prof Nutt but at least have the decency to stand down all the so called independent panels that the Government loves to hide behind when it suits it. Hipocrisy and double standards again.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 4:35 pm
Who gains out of making drugs illegal?
Well the criminals who import them get rich.
The people employed to stop them getting in get a wage and don’t stop the drugs from entering the UK.
The users suffer a number of ways, even for fairly innocuous drugs such as hashish.
They have to trade with criminals and can come under physical duress.
They find it hard to obtain help as the police will be there to bang them up.
The politician gets a good line in the Mail as it shows he’s tough on drugs
Let’s say we made all drugs legal, what would happen?
Does anyone seriously expect we’ll all become junkies?
1)A source of funds to criminals would disappear.
2) Those failing to stop drugs from being brought into the UK could be found useful work to do. Say catching burglars or tracking down miscreants who steal from the public purse.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 4:47 pm
I think part of the problem is that Nutt has been sacked from an (unpaid) post for doing things that might be considered part of his (paid) day job.
The papers that have got him in trouble – the ones in the Journal of Pharmacology and The Lancet, and the one based on his CCJS lecture – are such that a distinguished professor might reasonably be expected to write, whether or not he was working for HMG.
By sacking him, the message Johnson sends to scientists is this: if you advise the Government, you must be careful not to publish, promote or discuss research that apparently undermines Government policy.
How can scientists tolerate that? Their professional careers depend on them being able to analyse, discuss and criticise scientific ideas freely.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 5:29 pm
Nutt has not been sacked for publishing erudite scientific papers.
Alan Johnson has given his reasons.
It seems to me that the underlying cause is that Nutt in effect promoted the use of various dangerous drugs through the media.
Should we entertain experts on other committees publicising their views to promote other illegal actions among the vulnerable young? Aggravated assault vs actual bodily harm perhaps?
Had he promoted tobacco there would most likely have been a still more vociferous furore.
Contradicting the sound and sane message: “Just say No!” is hopelessly irresponsible.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 5:30 pm
Sorry Tom, but no.
Prf Nutt was stating *facts*. Politicos may not like these *facts* but that doesn’t stop them from being *true*.
We need an adult conversation about this whole subject. Johnson’s intellectual argument is no better than assuming everyone who turns 18 is now a potential paedophile *because it might happen – despite 99.9% of people *not* being guilty*
You are usually a jolly sensible voice of reason – get a grip Sir and tell it like it really is. Those aged 15-30 already know that Es and a joint aren’t as Gordon would have us believe LETHAL.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 5:50 pm
The panel of experts didn’t “say” what the government wanted and subsequently all are quitting. To be perfectly honest what qualifies an ex-postie to set drugs policy?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 6:16 pm
Perception by children is CRITICAL & academic advisors with specialist knowledge on drugs may very well not have either relevant knowledge/judgement. Or much judgement in other fields of human activity.
Pretty obvious that HMG can buy in advice from USA, or elsewhere on drugs. Official Advisors have no right 2 campaign re pol/social decisions re drugs
Nutt was campaigning against HMG policy, and tendentiously, not on value free sci evidence, and using the media to do so.
Alan Johnson made great defence of his decision. Nutt then effectively said they should all resign. Johnson Hasn’t trashed the sci evidence of course, he makes his judgment in the world of the possible and the practical, not that of some equation in a laboratory.
I suppose those who say Johnson was “only” a postie have elevated ideas of their own worth.
Jesus was “only” a carpenter I suppose.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 6:17 pm
entering into Godwin territory
I would suggest the history of what happened to medicine in Nazi Germany the most scientifically and medically advanced nation of its day.
and what the outcome led to should give a salutary warning on giving science the deciding vote on policy carried out by the state.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 6:46 pm
Excellent Mr. Mxyzptlk
“I would suggest the history of what happened to medicine in Nazi Germany the most scientifically and medically advanced nation of its day.”
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 6:55 pm
Tom on this one I agree with you. This is a quote from John Tilley who is the Department Of Health’s “Tobacco Control” Tzar.
“Action on smoking in the home will be a necessary part of future strategy on tobacco control.”
How an unelected civil servant, who I cannot unelect is in a position to dictate to me what I do in my private property is a disgrace.
I have debated Mr. Tilley before on smoking. He is either grossly misinformed, crassly ignorant or willfully misleading the public.
He should resign immediately.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 6:58 pm
Sorry here is the URL for the above quote.
John Tilley from the Department of Health, said:
“Action on smoking in the home will be a necessary part of future strategy on tobacco control.
http://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/section.asp?catid=24321&docid=80559
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 7:02 pm
@ Quietzapple
Wow, comparing Alan Johnson to Jesus now. That’s quite something.
Also: “It seems to me that the underlying cause is that Nutt in effect promoted the use of various dangerous drugs through the media.”
Where the heck has he ever done that??? Presumably you’re not actually suggesting that stating the scientific truth as to comparative harmfulness of various drugs amounts to inciting people to use them?!
You’ll be comparing him to the Nazis next! (Oh, wait a minute…)
Wouldn’t it be so much better if our scientists just lied to keep people such as Mr Quietzapple, Mr Johnson and the Daily Mail secure in their views, well protected from actual facts. Everything would be a lot more peaceful – personally I blame Galileo…
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 7:20 pm
The choice is clear. Support the scientific experts or go with the Daily Mail? Tricky that one isn’t it? Unless you believe that politicians and Daily Mail journalists are a special breed. Anyway, as has already been stated, it’s the hypocrisy that I object to. Why run a committee of experts, ignore their findings and go with what you intended to do all long?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 7:25 pm
Professor David Nutt – sacked for being ‘off-message’. Don’t worry, Prof, you’ll be rehired come June.
And as for the nuts saying legalise drugs…
This country can’t handle alcohol when it’s piled from floor to ceiling in Tesco. How the hell would it handle crack cocaine packed floor to ceiling in Tesco.
A figure well north of 50% of adults in this country are addicted to alcohol. Not addicted? Try not having any next Friday night if you’re not addicted.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 7:49 pm
“Advisers advise – ministers decide. It’s a fundamental principle of democracy.”
Uh, I thought we had that pesky… little thing… oh, what’s it called? Ah yes! Parliamentary sovereignty!
Advisers advise. Ministers suggest. The Commons decide. At least that’s the theory.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 7:58 pm
“ACCORDING to Professor David Nutt, mere democratically-elected politicians cannot be trusted to implement important policy decisions. Instead, dead brainy types – like him, for example – should be allowed to run the country without all this democratic accountability and such stuff and nonsense.”
And the difference between Prof Nutt, and Liam Donaldson, who hasn’t yet been sacked, is what, exactly?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 8:48 pm
Poor, p poor Ferret, not for the first time rather hors de combat . . .
Origins do not determine quality of performance, so Johnson is not precluded by his original occupation from making a prompt and wise decision.
Sites where trolls rarely troll have comments more in line with what one would expect from the general populace:
http://uk.buzz.yahoo.com/article/1:yahoo_uk_irel306:53490813646dcb1bf94772ecf624e325/Sacked-anti-drugs-adviser-slams-Brown
except: “alcohol costs us 20 billion what do drugs cost uss ?”
which may suggest that my view that the feeble minded may be lured into drugs by Nutt’s propaganda in the thirsty media may well be correct:
http://bristolwestpaul.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/the-scientist/#comment-87
Unamusing that druggies lapse into abuse so readily, but unsurprising too.
Chameleon is sweating on how to cope with this, it is a lose – lose situation for him.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 8:48 pm
@Quietzapple Sunday 1 November 2009 at 4:16 pm
//
Old Holborn;
You appear to imagine that everything which contradicts the well established, conventional views supported by commonsense and evidence is true
//
And the evidence that proves that criminalising drugs is working is?
Please, do tell us.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 8:59 pm
@Quietzapple
>Contradicting the sound and sane message:
>“Just say No!” is hopelessly irresponsible.
It’s not sound and sane – it’s for people that don’t understand what drugs are. We use all sorts of chemicals to alter us. Just say no to tobacco, alcohol…paracetamol? Is medicinal use of cannabis OK? Why do we use many of these drugs in medical treatment? This is not the simplistic topic you make it out to be and your three word solution is woefully inadequate. We need to teach our kids what all of these things are and what effect they have on humans, “Just Say No” is the complete opposite of that.
Your unthinking method has had its day, and failed. From now on we need to start evaluating the facts and making judgements based on those.
Understanding what chemicals do to humans is not irresponsible, neither is understanding the statistical related risk of taking those chemicals. Telling people to “just say no” is completely irresponsible and extremely naive.
…I’m not sure why I’m trying to reason with someone that compares Alan Johnson to Jesus…must be the drugs. At least Alan Johnson is real, isn’t he?
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 9:22 pm
Surely the point here though is that the classification system is supposed to group drugs by the harm they do.
The allocation of drugs into those groupings must be based on evidence or the exercise is pointless. Ignoring the advice of the experts means that the drug classification system is in fact a system to signal to the population how much they morally disapprove of the users of each drug.
Advisers advise, and ministers decide. That’s fine – and proper – for matters of policy. The relative harms of drugs however is not a matter of policy – it’s a matter of fact. And to some extent the cat is now out of the bag – Alan admitted as such when he explained on Sky News how the assignment of drugs to different categories is a matter of government policy. So – be honest – and admit that drug policy has very little to do with fact, with reason, with evidence – and very much to do with how ‘tough’ the government wants to appear on a drugs issue, regardless of how proportionate that ‘toughness’ is to the problem.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 9:31 pm
Witlessly, Nutt has not given the likely consequences of his campaign sufficient thought.
The desperation of the pro illegal drug squad here says rather more than any critic ever could. The comments on the Yahoo thread I linked above are like breath of fresh clear thinking air.
Tom’s drug trolls are like those who tell us there are no islamo-fascists, pity they cannot be the first victims of some kid who thinks he’s been told that cannabis/LSD/ecstasy is harmless, less harmful than tobacco.
Do you people really want my country to consume More Cannabis, LSD, ecstasy? Most of us would regard that as pretty perverse.
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 9:50 pm
[...] At the UK level, the Governments chief drugs advisor, David Nutt, was sacked (by e-mail! Harsh, relationship breakups should be done face to face, not by phone/text/email) for comments he made about cannabis being less harmful than nicotine and tobacco. Two advisors also quit in protest at his treatment. A Place to Stand comments on Nutt not being prepared to lie about the science as most such “advisors” do & why legalisation is the sensible answer. Tom Harris has a different take. [...]
Sunday 1 November 2009 at 10:35 pm
They are ADVISORS and it is for the government to decide if they take that advice or not. You can tell they have had free reine as the first time their advice is rejected they stary throwing their toys out of the pram.
Labour have used far to many advisors and I hope tis is the start of getting rid of them.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 6:38 am
I am not sure he should have neen sacked though. He is entitled to his opinion. He is entitled to disagree with the Labour government and say so and give his reasons.
For that he gets sacked. Sounds like a Labour dictarorship to me. Power mad.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 7:30 am
@ Tom,
As the legalisation that set up the drugs council means that policy was meant to be based upon scientific foundations. There is some talk now on Radio 4 today programme that Alan Johnson’s view isn’t actually legal.
Given the absolute mess this is turning into (what will happen if everyone resigns?) if it turns out to be illegal as well surely Johnson position will be untenable ?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 7:31 am
@ Tom,
As the legalisation that set up the drugs council means that policy was meant to be based upon scientific foundations. There is some talk now on Radio 4 today programme that Alan Johnson’s actions weren’t actually legal (ignore the science and do your own thing.)
Given the absolute mess this is turning into (what will happen if everyone resigns?) if it turns out to be illegal as well surely Johnson position will be untenable ?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 8:43 am
Sorry Tom. I have to disagree, although you do put it reasonably (and Nutt hasn’t helped himself by moaning about it – as you say, his role was to advise. There’s no rule that ministers have to act on advice and he should have accepted the decision).
The move to class B for cannabis was always one of Obama Beach’s “eye catching initiatives I can be personally associated with”. All the evidence points to cannabis being less harmful than currently legal substances, so where is the case for upgrading it to class B if it’s not for political rather than scientific reasons?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 8:48 am
Lord! How mad is it to try and insist that the Chairman of HMG’s Drugs Advisors doesn’t campaign against the Minister’s decisions?
The scientific views are NOT the only factors, the principal additional one is the effect of any changes on the public mind and thereby public action.
viz putting it into kids’ minds that drugs, such as cannabis, LSD and ecstasy are OK, do not pose the problems they truly pose.
Tom? Have you varied the trolls’ diets in some way . . ?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 8:51 am
@Triffid
“if it turns out to be illegal as well surely Johnson position will be untenable ?”
He wouldn’t be the only member of the government to have acted ‘illegally’ and not resigned.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 9:04 am
Repeat post for QZ, who, I see, has studiously ignored this amongst his uber-pompous utterances from his own high Olympus.
@Quietzapple Sunday 1 November 2009 at 4:16 pm
//
Old Holborn;
You appear to imagine that everything which contradicts the well established, conventional views supported by commonsense and evidence is true
//
And the evidence that proves that criminalising drugs is working is?
Please, do tell us.
Go on then – lets hear it from the great expert’s mouth. Clearly, you know far more about this than such government appointed experts as Prof. Nutt, so lets have the benefit of your extraordinary knowledge and wisdom. And a few more ellipses, as well, please, they always add to your air of pomposity.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 9:09 am
Johnson
“Professor Nutt was not sacked for his views, which I respect but disagree with,” he writes. “He was asked to go because he cannot be both a government adviser and a campaigner against government policy.”
I.E. He was not allowed to say that government policy is wrong. I.E. The council is there to back up government policy, and is in now way “independent”.
Why should an adviser NOT criticise government policy if they believe it to be wrong? Or does “advise” now mean “confirm as correct”?
Someone? Tom?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 9:20 am
What I find amusing is the number of Global warming deniers decrying the Government for not listening to evidence based Scientific opinion…
Monday 2 November 2009 at 9:33 am
Silly Plodder . .
The conventional wisdom among those of us who have children is that anything like the Nutt episode will tend to draw them into trying out drugs.
Obviously the trolls among you will continue to ignore that fact.
I trust this doesn’t indicate the mental depredations which certain substances are said to bring, rather just a mispreception of your own political interests.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 9:37 am
@Mxyzptlk – it’s because they in some way dispute the scientific evidence that they are global warming deniers.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 9:48 am
I have four children. All grown up; once in adolescence, living as we did in a large city, I spoke to them frankly about drugs. A couple of them smoke from time to time, one occasionally does mushrooms and MDMA. They are informed about what they are doing, and live good fulfilling lives; both work in care.
Your certitude makes you look as thick as a brick wall.
Why is anyone who disagrees with you automatically a “troll”. You are not blessed with much inmagination, are you?
“I trust this doesn’t indicate the mental depredations which certain substances are said to bring, rather just a mispreception of your own political interests.”
Uh? What is this to do with my political interests? This who incident is about the inability of this government to allow an ADULT conversation about drugs. Indeed, do you not recall Claire Short being slapped down for asking for such a thing? And do you not recall the late utterly unlamented excuse for a Home Secretary, that Smith thing, announcing that we were all to have a “big conversation” about drugs, only for Brown to annouce the re-classification of weed before supposed conversation had ended.
Anyway, I’ve got a really good idea to solve it – let’s call a Citizens’ Jury eh?
Whatever happened to those? Whatever happened to “Big Conversations”?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 10:16 am
The notion that any scientific advisory committee on drugs is going to have any sway with a government driven by populism is poppycock. Which begs the question what is the point in having an advisory committee in the first place?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 10:34 am
And on the other hand…another, more politically correct government adviser.
Chief prosecutor Keir Starmer advised by radical Muslim
A civil servant who has condemned ministers for helping to fuel the “slaughter” of Arabs in the Middle East is advising Britain’s most senior prosecutor on Islamic extremism.
Azad Ali, a Treasury official who has used his internet blog to praise the spiritual leader of Al-Qaeda, sits on a Whitehall counterterrorism panel that provides advice to Keir Starmer, the director of public prosecutions (DPP).
Ali was investigated earlier this year over his controversial views on the Iraq war and was forced to deny that he sympathised with the killing of British troops. He got into trouble with his Treasury bosses after using his blog to deny that last November’s Mumbai attacks, which claimed 173 lives, were an act of terrorism.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 10:38 am
And by the way, QZ, telling someone they are wrong is NOT campaigning – whatever Johnson might say or think. Indeed, I would say that it was part of Prof. Nutt’s job to do what he did. More power to his elbow -0 he’s shown that all government consultation on drugs is no more than window dressing.
Not that we didn’t know that already.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 11:05 am
Quietzapple
I have children and I’m not a troll. Nobody said anything about cannabis, LSD or ecstacy being OK – just statistically safer than alochol and tobacco…or horse riding for that matter. You seem incapable of understanding this debate and have descended to calling everyone “trolls” (another way of saying “I’ve lost the argument”).
Saying one thing is safer than another doesn’t infer that you should take either. I’d of thought that was obvious, yet here you are, desperately implying that knowing the truth about associated risks will increase users because you’re clutching at straws.
I find it extremely odd you think “the Nutt episode will tend to draw them into trying out drugs” – are your kids so weak-willed that a news story is all it will take? Clearly you are working under the misapprehension that talking about drugs leads to taking them – this is not the case.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 11:33 am
1: To the people that suggest (QuietZapple)the lowering of a drug class tells people its ‘ok’, what do you think this nonsense by the Government does?
By removing the connection between scientific advice and drug classification it proves that the disapproval of certain drugs is only political posturing.
Why should anybody give two hoots when the man that tells you he ‘ended boom and bust’ tells you pot is very bad. We now know it has nothing to do with the evidence but more expediency.
Basically this farce undermines all government advice on drugs, if it was not already fatally flawed.
2: How many Labour MPs haven’t had a spliff? Yet again they know what is best for us and it is different for them. They didn’t become psychotic but we will. They can tell the difference between the BNP and the mainstream, we can’t.
3: Ignoring the advice of scientists is one thing (although why bother requesting the commission?), but this is about telling them to keep going basically until they agreed with what Brown had already decided.
We have already ready clearly seen that this bunch of morality free jokers will play politics with anything. Why not this. Perhaps Tom’s POV would have more credibility if you hadn’t already dropped it to class C without major problems. (Quick, get the Daily Mail back on side)
4: Cannabis should be regulated if for no other reason than consumer protection.
When such a high proportion of the population (and it is clearly high indeed, probably above 20% looking at different surveys) chooses to undertake something which has negligible negative affects on others, the Government has a responsibility to respect and protect them. Why should a harmless pot smoker have to deal with mixing with drug dealers, getting short measured and having crappy additives like sugar and sand sprayed on it (if lucky). Folks get the worst of both worlds at the moment. Badly treated by the state (consuming pot being most pot smokers only attempt at criminality) and badly treated by suppliers. It does not have to be this way.
5: Drug policy so far has been a complete and expensive failure. Failure to adapt is yet more evidence hear of Brown’s total lack of innovation or real conviction. As said before this is not about solutions but about the Daily Mail.
6: Anybody that talks of pot as a ‘gateway drug’ is an idiot. The most erroneous bit of logic I have encountered in serious discourse.
7: I was able to get pot no problem when it was Class B and just as easily when it was Class C. That makes no difference to my thoughts or behaviour. It did however mean I was unfortunately now more likely to be branded a criminal. Why make those people more criminal and waste more police time when clearly (and the stats prove it) the change in classification does not increase use but frees up police time. Tom, I know you guys love making people into outlaws (3000 new offences you bastions of liberalism you) but why criminalise people that do no harm and otherwise lead moral lives?
Lastly, and most pertinently IMO:
8: If this is not a scientific judgement and political, social and moral judgement are required. Please explain what this choice is based on. The moment you mention things like psychosis and super-skunk etc. etc. you need science again.
It is all very well Alan Johnson saying the real decisions are down to ministers, but without justifying why he ignored the recommendations this is just sham politics. Without explaining what his decision (that affects our lives) is based upon, of course he will take abuse and rightly so.
he damn cheek of these pols who have opinions of their own! Don’t they realise that the job of government and parliament is simply to rubber stamp the decisions of their advisers?
“Advisers advise – ministers decide. It’s a fundamental principle of democracy.”
“Ministers should treat the advice they receive seriously… But then they should apply their own political judgment [sic].”
Ok Tom, all fine so far. So let Johnson explain his decision in detail. That would be firm leadership.
Yet another episode in a long saga of pretty poor stuff. I don’t know how you can remain so loyal Tom, spinning this junk. You deserve a medal.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 11:35 am
@Rob Shorrock
Sorry for the pedantry, but:
http://begthequestion.info/
Monday 2 November 2009 at 11:45 am
Political correctness is almost always a block to freedom.
When it prevents de-criminalisation of drugs and thereby enables the murderous drug cartels to form the world’s biggest business, it’s a scandal.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 11:52 am
Lol @ Quietzapple repeatedly screaming ‘troll’ randomly in every direction because he doesn’t have anything intelligent to write.
The idea that a whole load of kids will go out and take ecstasy or LSD at the weekend because of what some professor says is utterly laughable.
Interestingly, the Misuse of Drugs Act specifically says that the Advisory Council is to advise on, and suggest, changes to law, as well as mere reclassification. And that no change to classifications can be made except on its advice, or in consultation with it. The ACMD is not just a normal group of advisors, it is a statutory organisation specifically created to ensure that classifications are based on scientific evidence, not on moral whims, or the headlines in the Daily Mail.
Unfortunately, Mr Brown, Mr Johnson, and Mrs Smith have moved us well away from that. Only they like the pretence that what they are saying is based on science, even when it isn’t. We might as well amend the statute to allow Paul Dacre to set the classifications directly, and cut out the middlemen…
Monday 2 November 2009 at 12:17 pm
Well said Tom.
It’s not often I agree with commentators such as Peter Obourne et al, but this nonsense that experts who advise Ministers can, on the occasions that their advice is rejected, somehow parade themselves around the media criticising their charge that it is bloody ridiculous and all that.
An advisor who dictates as opposed to advising (the clue is in the title) is of no benefit to anyone. Perhaps the experts can get themselves elected and then determine policy?
This is yet another attack on our democracy. There is already too much policy being formulated by unelected Czars (particularly in Scotland; Children’s Commissioner; Human Rights Commissioner; Tartan Commissioner) and with murmurings of MPs being regulated by independent and unelected bodies, we are truly in un-chartered waters.
How about the electorate decide who to elect and those who are elected manage the country on our behalf?
Better get on with my letter to Ben Bradshaw re my campaign to bring Prisoner: Cell Block H back to our screens. If he continues to ignore my letters and phone calls I intend to resign from my position at Land of Leather (Media Enquiries to mo.daniels@secure-unit.og.uk)
Mo
Monday 2 November 2009 at 12:23 pm
Chris:
You are trolling if you make out that kids will just read the learned statements of the eminent scientists.
My kids are pretty bright and past the age where they decided wether to try out whatever, and I trust them and did then too.
But you are truly a fool if you imagine that there will not be an accident or two or more in consequence of Nutt’s campaign.
I’ve posted the meaning of troll before . . .
You deliberately seek to engage in what used to be regarded as a flame war, the cap fits you well.
Of course talking about drugs doesn’t necessarily lead to taking them, but “Expert says Pot less dangerous than Fags” does.
Commonsense will not retreat, truth will out and Nutt had to go.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 12:26 pm
Well done in any case to Professor Nutt for saying what he thinks rather than saying what those who fancy they are his masters want him to think.
It would be nice to see some similar single-mindedness from global-warming- it’s-stopped-warming- so-climate-change-then scientists.
Of course the gwiswscct scientists are invariable on the payroll whereas Professor Nutt hasn’t received a penny-piece from the public purse for his wisdom.
Aye, there’s the rub, alright.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 12:29 pm
A post from CiF – pretty much nails it IMHO
HowardD
01 Nov 09, 11:38pm (about 10 hours ago)
There’s another side to this.
Politicians couldn’t get enough of the rubbish fed to them by “experts” on secondhand smoke. To NuLab’s control freaks a smoking ban was the ultimate dream, so they regurgitated and exaggerated every theory put to them by quangocrats and politico-medics out to make a name for themselves.
An hour or two in the pub with smokers around never killed anyone. But they convinced us otherwise with rigged polls, impossible survey results and farcical statements about “no safe limit”. They ploughed millions into TV advertising, anti-smoking gestapo and silly little signs in every window telling us not to break a law we have no intention of breaking.
The result – thousands of pubs shut, tens of thousands of jobs lost and a world-famous institution decimated.
On this particular issue the medics were in bed with the politicians. A total smoking ban in pubs served their mutual purpose – to impose a new control by ingratiating themselves with non smokers. The most authoritative studies ever carried out have not proved that occasional exposure to secondhand smoke causes permanent harm, yet by the way these people talk it is worse than mustard gas.
That is not science – it’s hysteria.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 12:39 pm
Quietzapple, I’d rather be a troll than a sycophant.
Coming from the Government that introduced 24 hour drinking, against medical and Police advice, it comes as no surprise that New Labour would simply go ahead and ignore their own experts.
But considering you’re ok with people drinking themselves to death, why the double standards when it comes to people smoking or injecting themselves into oblivion.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 1:38 pm
I didn’t realise that Terry Pratchett knew Alan Johnson until recently and that he’d based his Discworld character ‘Bloody Stupid Johnson’ on him.
‘Bloody Stupid Johnson’ is notorious for his complete inability to produce anything according to common sense or accepted science.. He also has an annoying habit of misinterpreting figures.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 1:38 pm
Simon, I should think that what you said was actionable were you to repeat it within reach of a libel action.
Funny sycophant I, who quit the Labour Party publicly in 1987 – it made the regional press. I’ve only just got round to rejoining.
While I am not ok with excessive alcohol consumption and gave up smoking with excruciating difficulty 8/9 years ago I don’t think that those who seek oblivion by those means set a precedent for the rest of you.
Oh, and I disapprove of sado-masochistic practices where these endanger or cause actual harm to participants as well.
Our society is free, not libertine, thankfully.
I think JS Mill would have recognised that had he lived today.
You want out? Try Bolivia or somewhere else where they have a more cavalier approach to human life.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 2:21 pm
@Quietzapple – My first comment might have been libelous if it were directed at you, rather than just a general observation, but feel free to sue if you wish.
The rest of my post was directed at Mr Harris, whose blog this is. But considering you expect me, (and/or anyone else here), to know you quit the Labour Party in 1987 or anything else about you for that matter, I can see where you might have got confused.
And for the record. I don’t want out. I would, however, like my country to be run for the benefit of the population by a government who are adult enough to admit when they got it wrong.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 2:38 pm
Tom said “We cannot and should not farm out every policy decision to unelected advisers.”
Well then, I take it you’re in favour of scrapping all the quangos stuffed full of unelected New Labour apparatchiks you’ve created in 12 years?
The silence is deafening!
Monday 2 November 2009 at 3:08 pm
It would be one thing if teh governemtn said “we’ve heard teh scientific evidence, but want to keep Cannabis as Class B to avoid sneding out the ‘wrong message’” or similar comments. It is quite anotehr to say “the scientists are wrong” without any proof. The latter seems to be what happened.
Mr Harris, could you give a hypothetical example where the science definately says one thing (and the goevrnemnt agrees the with the science), but the government *should* do something different?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 3:38 pm
Major problem with your article is that it asserts that democratically elected politicians should be the ones make decisions, yet Gordon Brown was not democratically elected as Prime Minister and he was the man to decide Cannabis should be reclassified.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 3:59 pm
QZ I need no government to implement policies to protect me from what they claim is moral weakness. I’m a good citizen. I’ve raised fine kids. I’m knocking on 60 and if I want a pipe I’ll have a ****ing pipe regardless of any government and regardless of people with broomsticks up their arses.
Get real. There are millions like me out here, of all ages; the “war against drugs” was lost years – decades – ago. A realistic approach is needed that would benefit all, most of those the many, many victims of low-level drug-related crime.
But you know best, clearly.
Again I ask you, as you have so far ignored the question. Give me evidence that the criminalisation of drugs is of benefit to our society.
And whilst you are pondering your response, here is an article on the benefits Portugal has had from decriminalisation.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
No doubt you will tell them they are wrong… (note ellipsis)
Monday 2 November 2009 at 4:17 pm
@Quietzapple
“You want out? Try Bolivia or somewhere else where they have a more cavalier approach to human life.”
And there we get to the crux. Your Christian view of life – you think you know what’s good for us regardless of what we think/want or what science says.
Why not return to your bronze-age mythology, abandon shell-fish and leave the 21st Century for grown ups who try to get their ‘facts’ from evidence and experience rather than revelation.
When you cry “think of the children”, tell them “just say no” when all the evidence points to the fact that the children are better protected by being open and honest about the effects and risks of drugs suggests that reason has bypassed you.
In fact, were it not for such a consistent on-message labour view, I’d consider you a Poe.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 4:35 pm
Of course ministers make policy but it would be more honest if they were straightforward about making them on the basis of political/social reasons. I understand that they do not judge that it would be acceptable to make decisions on drugs simply on the basis of scientific evidence when there are other social and political considerations to be taken into account. No politician can afford to get so far ahead of public opinion that they alienate it and Nutt s naive if he does not realise that. Having said that I suspect public opinion may be moving somewhat faster on the whole drugs issue, certainly on cannabis, than ministers realise.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 4:45 pm
Quietzapple
This is far from a flame war. We’re all being really nice and understanding with you because we can see that you have deep-seated problems; we feel for you and hope that you can overcome these barriers.
>Of course talking about drugs doesn’t
>necessarily lead to taking them, but
>“Expert says Pot less dangerous than
>Fags” does.
I’m not sure that anyones ever suggested that government advice leads to drug taking before, but here it is. You have the worst grip on causality I think I’ve ever come across.
This thread stands as testament to your ineptitude on this subject. The last believer in “just say no” also disapproves of “sado-masochistic practices”, apparently, and compares Alan Johnson to Jesus…all in a single thread. Is this part of a comedy routine? What are your thoughts on spanking? Where is the Quietzapple S&M threshold? Now you’ve brought it up, tell us what consenting adults should and shouldn’t be allowed to do to each other in the bedroom.
Your hysterical rantings are farcical at best, delusional for the most part – what sort of teenagers are listening to, and acting upon the advice of government advisors?!
You are the only person I’ve come across so far to suggest a causal link between teenage drug taking and Professor Nutt’s stance – utterly ludicrous. To round things off nicely, you suggest that people that don’t agree with you should leave the country, but it is clear from this thread that you are in a tiny minority, so perhaps you should consider your own residence.
Monday 2 November 2009 at 4:48 pm
Kristian
Awesome point, well made!
Monday 2 November 2009 at 5:47 pm
The arrogance of politicians is breathtaking. Alan Johnson made *no effort* to defend his opinions, unlike Nutt, who put forward plenty of evidence. Johnson’s only justification, which you seem to be supporting here, was “I’m powerful, so I can”.
Hell, why bother actually learning or studying things. Just convince a few thousand people to vote for you and suddenly you’re omniscient.
Politicians have a duty to act in the best interests of their constituents. How, exactly, is Johnson’s disregarding of expert advice in the public interest?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 7:29 pm
I despair that people don’t realise that a Government Minister would be most unwise to tell the public (including lots of impressionable kids) that he is concerned that Nutt’s campaign might push them in the direction of drug abuse.
Pretty much certain to fuel the fires.
I repeat that Tom’s blogs are frequented by Tory Trolls . . . oh, when time permits . . .
Monday 2 November 2009 at 7:33 pm
@Chris Monday 2 November 2009 at 4:45 pm
//Quietzapple//
Oh good. Not just me then. Started to feel like I was picking on him, but clearly not!
Monday 2 November 2009 at 8:04 pm
I suspect that some of these are related to Iain Dale’s collection, y’know, claiming one foot . . .
They can reduce the garden’s micro flora very effectively I gather . . .
Monday 2 November 2009 at 8:54 pm
QZ – I don’t understand why you believe that Prof Nutt’s waging a campaign! Do you imagine him to be a drug baron in his spare time?
Monday 2 November 2009 at 9:30 pm
Nutt looks like a loose cannon with an ego, which is how he came to campaign.
Media and others say: “Wise Nutt, tell us your perspicacious and sexy thoughts on drugs” and he complies. Even makes sensational and nonsensical comparisons.
But speculations as to why are not specially relevant, he is not in the dock yet, and it is unlikely I would be asked to give evidence.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 12:21 am
Quietzapple.
Fair point about the ego though.
None of this excuses the massive failure of successive governments to successfully shape the drugs policy.
Maybe with the huge majority and years of public good will, Blair’s government might have had a go. But certain newspapers would go full tilt and that has always made Blair’s pooper twitch like a sports photographer’s shutter.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 5:21 am
Looking back at Chris and Paul’s posts gave me really good laugh.
They do believe that “Anything goes.” and, perhaps, that kids are unaffected by Nutt and his campaign with the media.
Friends tells me one of their children, who has already had probs with drugs, is quoting Nutt, or what he imagines Nutt has said.
What extent of self harm is to be permitted in your philosophy I wonder?
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 8:52 am
I know who I would trust on the matter of drugs and their safety.
Professor Daid J Nutt
Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians
Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists
Fellow of the Academy of Medical Sciences.
He holds visiting professorships in Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands.
He is president of British Association of Psychopharmacology and the European College of Neuropsychopharmacology.
Alan Johnson left school at 15 to become a shelf stacker in Tesco and then a postman and Home Secretary. His sole achievement in his various careers has been to sell the posties down the line when he was boss of the CWU. Our postie speaks highly of him.
Not.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 8:54 am
@Jay
Why is QZ doing what he is? Simple, because it fits his world view, which allows him to pontificate on what might be safe or unsafe for others.
Happily, most of us don’t need QZ to do that for ourselves. Whatever he might believe. He is, after all, clearly on a different, indeed, higher, plane than us.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 8:56 am
@Quietzapple “I despair that people don’t realise that a Government Minister would be most unwise to tell the public (including lots of impressionable kids) that he is concerned that Nutt’s campaign might push them in the direction of drug abuse”
Quietzapple, were Government Ministers right about abolishing the 10p tax band ? and were they also right to mislead the public when they said that no-one would be worse off ?
Were they also right when they said Gurkhas who served before 1997 could not settle in Britain ? If so, why the U-turn ?
Was the previous home secretary right when she stole over £100,000 from tax-payers ? Was she right not to pay it back ?
Will you be as un-questionably supportive of ministers in the next Conservative government ?
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 9:43 am
While the thread has been moved over to pontificating on the natures of its participants:
I suspect I’d rather trust Nutt to look after kids than most of the above.
Not saying a lot.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 10:53 am
@Quietzapple “I suspect I’d rather trust Nutt to look after kids than most of the above. Not saying a lot.”
I actually find that comment extremely offensive, and that is no reflection on Professor Nutt.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 11:22 am
Quietzapple: ‘Nutt looks like a loose cannon with an ego, which is how he came to campaign.
Media and others say: “Wise Nutt, tell us your perspicacious and sexy thoughts on drugs” and he complies. Even makes sensational and nonsensical comparisons.’
Dear me, I’ve missed the two-minute hate.
I’ll try to be on time tomorrow…
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 11:52 am
Quietzapple = The reason Labour is screwed for a generation.
I’m not looking forward to a Tory government, but when you read the insane rantings of supporters of the current government, you have to wonder whether they’ll even wind up second place. Obviously, Tories would never of allowed someone with Prof. Nutts views to advise in the first place; so I can’t see any change coming in the future.
Quietzapple, Labour and the Tories vs. the rest of us; great democracy!
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 12:09 pm
These were the figures Nutt was referencing, hope someone finds them interesting :
http://drugs.homeoffice.gov.uk/publication-search/acmd/mdma-report?view=Binary
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1478823/pdf/brjsmed00026-0041.pdf
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 12:17 pm
Nutt is a professional man, asked to advise on a topic in which he is a domain expert. Provided explicit evidence pointing towards a definite decision which is completely ignored.
If that happened to you, wouldn’t you be frustrated?
Wouldn’t you want to let the public know what the government were doing with scientific advice (and facts!)?
Wouldn’t you want people to know that this was NOT your advice to the government and that they took this decision IN SPITE of your advice and not because of it?
@Quietzapple
I do suspect that my views on personal liberty massively outstrip anyone else on this site (with the possible exception of on the single issue of smoking where some people are VERY liberal). However, facts should trump rhetoric.
“Just say no” is as effective on drugs as abstinence campaigns are in avoiding teenage pregnancy.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 12:33 pm
Tobacco kills half the addicts who use it.
Not sure of the corresponding toll of other addictive substances. But I believe it’s rather less.
So it seems strange that there is so much more fuss about their physiological effects.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 12:46 pm
But some of you may not lose bicycles quite so readily as Bojo & David Chameleon.
There, feel any better?
(If, as seems quite likely, Labour wins a fourth term, I suppose I shall have to seek sanctuary)
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 1:31 pm
@Quietzapple “If, as seems quite likely, Labour wins a fourth term, …”
I was beginning to think Mr Harris had named this thread after one of his regular contributors, rather than the Professor, but am now convinced.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 1:50 pm
@Quietzapple
Do YOU favour abandoning all sex education classes in favour of an abstinence campaign? Surely talking about sex and its effects and dangers will simply encourage kids to do it when they discover it is safer than horse riding…
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 3:26 pm
It certainly is likely that Labour will win a fourth term.
The scale needs to be from now to the middle of the century though.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 4:47 pm
Oooooer . .
I guess HMG’s sex advisory committee has said that they want to reclassify various forms of under age sex then?
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 8:37 pm
So, QZ, I am still looking forward to your views on how criminalisation of drugs is working to the benefit of society, also to your comments on how well de-criminalisation has worked in Portugal.
Over to you, no ducking and weaving please.
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 8:54 pm
@Quietzapple Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 9:43 am
//
While the thread has been moved over to pontificating on the natures of its participants
//
So. It is OK for you to call people trolls, but not for people to comment on you. Jolly good. Keep it consistent, QZ
Tuesday 3 November 2009 at 10:37 pm
Academic performance of school children who smoke cannabis daily deteriorates; they have a chronic low-grade intoxication.
http://url.ie/2r
Look forward to hearing those who defend the Nutt pro dope publicity defend the kids whose lives fall into this downward spiral. (V unlikely, it has been quite appalling how so many ‘adults’ consider solely their own drug positions, some as though it is everything to them)
Elsewhere it is made clear that 1/5 of the schitzophrenics in the UK are on drugs which contribute to their appalling and unpleasant conditions.
Anyone who checks out the Dutch story will find a wider variety of drugs have moved in behind cannabis.
Nutt wanted Cannabis downgraded. Those who praise his credentials might ask wether all the experts they have lauded, imagining that thereby they managed to attack an excellent Labour Home Secretary, support their libertine views.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 4:18 am
Can I make just one little tiny point?
Let us suppose that one 18yr old person smokes one cigarette and another 18yr old takes one ecstasy tablet, which, in our general experience, is the more likely to drop down dead? Let us just extend this situation a little further. Let us say that both persons have had lots of alcohol as well. Now which person is likely to drop down dead?
In my opinion, neither Nutt nor Johnson are correct. They are both living a world divorced from reality. The sooner we can get rid of the lot of them the better.
Problem is – will their replacements be any better. God! It is so depressing!
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 8:27 am
Quietzapple, Children shouldn’t smoke cannabis, but then they shouln’t smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol either.
Professor Nutt was NOT campaigning for the right to let children smioke cannabis or take any other drugs, and it’s a little disingenuous to suggest he was.
It’s also plainly wrong to suggest Nutt wanted cannabis downgraded. Tony Blair had already downgraded when he was PM. Was that wrong ? Was the (excellent Labour) Home Secretary at the time wrong to support that move ?
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 8:33 am
“Academic performance of school children who smoke cannabis daily deteriorates; they have a chronic low-grade intoxication.”
Indicating that the law has made NO difference to their habits, and that we need to look beyond the law as it stands. Alcohol, of course, is as much a problem for many young teenagers,
So, QZ, I am still looking forward to your views on how criminalisation of drugs is working to the benefit of society, also to your comments on how well de-criminalisation has worked in Portugal.
Over to you, no ducking and weaving please.
“Anyone who checks out the Dutch story will find a wider variety of drugs have moved in behind cannabis.”
So YOU say – sources and references please; you like to state opinions with no backup whatsoever, do you. And again -Portugal? Criminalisation, benefits to society from?
THIRD time of asking.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 9:17 am
QZ
“support their libertine views.”
One man’s libertine is another man’s libertarian.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 10:44 am
Actually Plodder, the Portuguese experiment seems to have led to an increase in school child cannabis consumption. Their culture is rather different to ours, and I have worked with a fair few Portuguese in the UK, my opinion shared by others.
Holland the effective non prosecutions of cannabis users has run alongside the increase in use of designer drugs I read.
If you are really interested in the subject take a look at the African experience where Keef is a menace to all and sundry a Uk friend in the know tells me.
Now stop being silly and go and take some good clean breaths of fresh air.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 10:57 am
QZ: “libertine view”
Ignoring the fact I have no attraction to cannabis, your use of libertine suggests you have access to some absolute moral knowledge that the rest of us don’t. Is that your belief?
Is cannabis really a moral issue?
If not then Johnson was 100% wrong.
@Junican
If 3 eighteen year olds meet up and one has a cigarette, one has an ecstacy tablet and one goes horse riding for an hour, what do you think the ranking is in terms of likelihood of serious injury?
1st: Horse riding
2nd: ecstacy
3rd: smoking one cigarette
However, you miss the key point which is that people tend not to smoke one cigarette, if they get addicted it tends to be 20+ per day. The odds of serious injury over 10+years of that rise significantly. Ecstacy users tend to use pills much less often (than 20 per day) and for much shorter periods, a few years rather than a lifetime.
What you have to compare is the likelihood of serious injury over a reasonable timeline, say 10 years. In that case smoking is most dangerous, then horse riding then ecstacy. That is not to say one ecstacy pill can’t kill you, but the odds are very low.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 11:27 am
QZ, as ever you provide no evidence for anything you assert. Why should I take the slightest notice of you.
Your point on schoolkids here simply reinforces MY assertion that the law s not working. Kids will take cannabis regardless – until we have an adult and educated discussion about this as a society, laws will make no difference. Whilst I educated my kids about drugs, it was made damn clear to them that drugs and education do not mix.
I did that. Not the law. Criminal as I am under it, I educated my kids about drugs.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 11:37 am
http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/2009/11/02/on-drugs-policy-crime-is-the-elephant-in-the-room/
The independent panel of scientists argues that various illegal drugs are less harmful than legal ones, or even horse riding. The chief gets sacked by the home secretary, and apparently the rest of the panel are considering their positions.
So why doesn’t the home secretary appoint a panel of independent economists to advise on drugs policy instead? At the moment drugs policy seems to be authored by a coalition of tabloid headline writers and frightened politicians.
An economic take would be a forensic and brutal assessment of some unpalatable trade-offs.
Despite illegality in almost every nation, the UN estimates 8 per cent of world trade is illegal drugs. It’s a massive number. It is as yet unclear how that held up during the post-Lehman collapse in world trade.
So the first point is that, despite the tens of billions spent on the “war on drugs” around the world, there’s little evidence that it is effective. According to the UNODC, between 1994 and 2008 opium production has surged from 5,000 to 8,000 metric tonnes per year (due to Afghanistan), and global cocaine production has stayed pretty constant at around 900 metric tonnes.
However much is being seized, there is a much greater capacity to produce. So the legitimate question here is whether or not the war on drugs is cost effective.
Drugs can ruin healthy lives. The UN estimates that there are between 18 and 38 million problem drug users in the world. Interestingly though, that is a small proportion of the 250 million who have used in the past year without it becoming a problem, according to the UN.
The big unknown is how much a more liberal drugs policy would increase usage and therefore health costs. If illegal drugs were legalised and then taxed – as argued by economists like William Buiter – there is a chance that the exchequer might not lose out. There’d be at least £1bn in VAT.
That is not to say that there would be no pain for families and some communities where use goes up. But this brings us to the elephant in the room: crime.
Home Office figures show that the UK illicit drugs market is worth between £4bn and £6.6bn. Class A drug use generates an estimated £15.4bn in crime and health costs. Crucially, between a third and a half of all “acquisitive crime” – that’s mugging, burglary, stealing – is drug related. That is an awful lot of pain.
I’ve seen it for myself in my hometown. No-one would want to be behind policies that led to an increase in the zombied frenzy of crack addiction. Nonetheless, by far the most painful manifestation of the drugs trade are the pensioners, young mothers and families who are harrassed, robbed and knifed by drug addicts looking for the money for their next fix.
So it is conceivable that there exists a drugs policy that minimises the costs of this type of crime, or even wipes it out altogether.
Economics is about trade-offs, about cost-benefit analyses. It is possible that different approaches to drugs policy could lead to less pain in communities afflicted by problem drug use, than the current approach.
But any move in this direction would require some mental dexterity currently absent in our politics, an ability to see beyond the binary world of being “soft” or “hard” on drugs. I can’t imagine a policy area where the frank assessment of independent experts, whether scientists or economists, is more necessary. But I’m not holding my breath.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 11:41 am
Whilst this article reports that magistrates don’t understand what Joe Public does – that reclassifying cannabis will not make the slightest differnce, it highlights strongly the hopeless state of the everlasting “war against drugs”.
BTW. QZ, these are what I term “sources and references” to back up what I write. You on the other hand simply demand we believe you.
Back to the debating society for young man. 1/10 for debating skills (one mark for persistence).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article648195.ece
Cannabis is linked to rising child crime
and harder drugs
327,000 hard-drug addicts in Britain
Higher use due to falling street prices
Richard Ford and Stewart Tendler
Magistrates are calling for tougher laws on cannabis to halt a crime wave among children who are stealing to buy drugs and graduating to more dangerous drugs.
The demand for the Government to move the drug back to Class B from Class C for young offenders came yesterday as two reports showed that Britain’s drug problems continue unabated.
The toll of hard drug abuse in England and Wales is now put at more than £15 billion a year in economic and social costs, according to Home Office figures.
The number of addicts has risen to 327,000 and Britain’s illicit drug market is now estimated to be generating £5.3 billion for traffickers and dealers. Heroin and crack, seen as the most dangerous of the illicit drugs, account for about half of the market’s total value.
A second report published yesterday by the European Union’s main drug monitoring agency provided further alarming evidence of Britain’s inability to tackle its drug problems. It places Britain among the worst European nations for drug misuse at a time when prices are falling and addiction could rise further.
Despite record levels of drug seizures, officials admit they are failing to hit the markets where users buy their drugs.
Against this backdrop, the call for changes to the cannabis legislation came from 400 delegates at the annual conference of the Magistrates’ Association in Coventry. Roger Davy, a West Yorkshire magistrate and a national spokesman on youth courts, said: “Children — and that’s what they are — as young as 12, 13 and 14 are coming before us for offences of theft and robbery, which they admit are to raise money to feed their cannabis habit.”
He said that cannabis use did not automatically plunge children into a life of crime, but many children believed cannabis was now legal and that nothing would happen if they were caught with it.
Mr Davy said that the downgrading of cannabis to a Class C category had sent out the wrong message to vulnerable young people and he cited the case of a 15-year-old boy who had come before Bradford Crown Court accused of murdering one of his brothers in a frenzied knife attack after drinking up to seven cans of lager and smoking several joints.
Mr Davy said: “The message has been sent out that having cannabis is not a serious offence, so more people have started to use it — who knows how many. But I am convinced that for many of the vulnerable youngsters I see in court it is a gateway to harder substances.”
The magistrates voted for change as the Home Office report provided a fresh estimate on the total costs of Class A drugs, detailing the price of drug use linked to crime, healthcare and deaths. The report put the cost at £15.4 billion in 2003-04, or £44,231 for each problem drug user. It is an increase of £3 billion on the 2000 figure, but officials said the rise was due to changes in calculations of the costs linked to crime and victims.
Drug-related crime accounts for 90 per cent of the overall cost of Class A drug use. The overall illicit drug market in 2003-04 was £5.2 billion, a fall from the £6.6 billion estimated for 1998.
The £5.2 billion drug market in cannabis, amphetamines, Ecstasy, powder cocaine, crack and heroin is one third the value of the tobacco market and 41 per cent the size of the alcohol market. The size of the drug trade is comparable to British Airways’ stock market value of £5.5 billion and the brick and cement giant Hanson’s stock value of £5.3 billion.
The Home Office report said that the decline in the size of the illicit market was a result of the sharp fall in the cost of drugs on the streets.
According to last year’s report of the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, published in Brussels yesterday, prices of cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, Ecstasy and cannabis across Europe have been steadily falling for the past five years.
The report says that, although drug use may have stabilised in Britain and other countries, danger lies ahead, especially over cocaine use. The drug is now the second most popular after cannabis. It said: “In Europe, cocaine is at historically high levels and studies suggest it is a common pattern for increases in problems relating to a drug to lag some years behind increases.”
The report shows that Britain is top of the league for cocaine use among 15 to 34-year-olds, with 10.5 per cent of the population of that age group trying the drug at least once. Britain also came top of the 15-24 age group, with nearly 6 per cent having used the drug in the past year.
In 2003, the latest figures available, Britain was also top for heroin seizures, second for cocaine and cannabis seizures after Spain and top again for Ecstasy seizures.
Vernon Coaker, the Minister responsible for drugs, said: “Record sums invested in tackling drugs have helped to cut acquisitive crime, which is largely drug-related, by 16 per cent in the last two years.”
But David Davis, the Shadow Home Secretary, questioned government policy. “This is the cost of Labour’s failure on drugs, and it is being met by the public. Labour must end its chaotic and confused approach and get an urgent grip on this problem,” he said.
Martin Barnes, chief executive of the charity DrugScope, said: “Despite encouraging signs that drug use overall is stable and for some drugs is falling, there is clearly no room for complacency.”
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 11:44 am
I think I have been more than generous with my time.
I suggest that google provides answers to those of the questions put to me which are not based on false presuppositions. eg that dangerous drugs are solely those which are dangerous to the user most obviously.
The thread was about Nutt, his sacking and the folly of his campaign, and those who have theories to roll have distended it enough in my view.
From my first post on this thread:
“And Prof Nutt behaved with criminal irresponsibility: he lives in C21th Britain, not Plato’s academy where debate was the preserve of supposedly dispassionate intellectuals.
“He should have quit and conducted a lower profile campaign. His operation will only make it harder for any necessary action to be taken.”
I do have other things to do.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 11:47 am
Sergeant Plodder, there is no point in debating with someone who, like Gordon Brown, simply argues that he is right and everyone else is wrong, (despite all the evidence to the contrary).
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 11:48 am
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:LETGN5C8W9UJ:www.costsofcrime.org/PolicyApplications/pdf/Drug%2520Misuse%2520and%2520the%2520Costs%2520of%2520Crime%2520alternative.pdf+cost+of+drugs+crime&hl=en&gl=uk&sig=AFQjCNEQT8ehgCAZ1awOzJ2Q2KwwEvsG7w&pli=1
Stats provided to the house on the cost of drug-related crimes.
Enough. I rset my case. The law as it stands is not working, and the appalling cost to society of ruined lives and wasted money will continue until whatever government finds a spine.
QZ. Legalising would assist addicts seek help. Legalising would enable addicts to live ordinary lives (no crime to get their smack, no dirty needles) and move towards being clean. Legalising would free the millions of weed smokers in this country from the threat of becoming criminals, and could also be used to raise tax, and from that improve education on the safe usage AND the perils of drugs.
Humanity has altered its consciousness since the dawn of human time. No amount of legislation, anywhere in the world, has stopped us doing that. Nor will it.
Opium – pay the opium farmers in Ghan economic amounts for their opium, thereby sidelining the Taliban, allowing them to rebuild their local economies, and thereby helping to deal with the worldwide shortage of medical morphine.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 9:05 pm
Don’t bother me with pesky facts and statistics, I already KNOW what’s right for everyone else. I don’t need to justify or support my argument, don’t you know who I am?!
If we all just thought like me, everything would be OK. I don’t have the time for reasoned debate – just listen to my opinions, do what I say and we’ll all be fine. I’m very important – I have things to do, people to see, that’s why I’ve spent so long here, talking absolute nonsense for so long.
Never has an internet debate so perfectly mimicked the thinking of the Brown government. People like you have allowed Cameron to gain support, you mights as well be campaigning for him.
Quietzapple – Tories didn’t agree with Nutt, at all, they sided with Johnson. Cameron is on YOUR side. We’re not all Tories by any means – we’re the electorate.
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 9:56 pm
Chris:
You troll in the tory cause, and it is a pound to a penny you won’t be voting Labour.
You obviously don’t share my sense of humour, and, to judge by your attempt at satire that is unsurprising.
Pity you and the posse don’t read:
“He should have quit and conducted a lower profile campaign. His operation will only make it harder for any necessary action to be taken.”
No-one has either contradicted this, nor argued that I ws mistaken, but . . we get lots of bitter recriminations.
Most of the electorate are not only opposed to drugs, but back those who fight their use, especially among our young people.
I don’t need to usurp their name in vain as you do.
Thursday 5 November 2009 at 1:20 am
No, unsurprisingly, you’re completely mistaken about everything, apart from betting that I won’t be voting Labour (I did last election). I have never even considered voting Tory.
The way you’ve conducted yourself in this thread epitomises why the government has lost public support. Even staunch Labour voters must wince to read what you’ve written; your lack of substance and steadfast refusal to consider factual evidence brought before you.
Again, we are not a “posse” – we are individuals that have found our way here through many means – for example, I arrived here via the politicshome.com blog feed. I don’t know anyone else on this blog.
Like all of your posts, rather than establish facts you’ve simply stated opinion; which is ironic, because that’s what we’ve all been arguing about. If you had any clue about what you’re talking about you’d know that “most of the electorate” use drugs like alcohol frequently. In Scotland, over two thirds think that taking the drug alcohol is part of the Scottish way of life – you are in a minority that allegedly “just says no” to all drugs. You don’t smoke, you don’t drink – we can assume that tea and coffee are out (me too! caffeine is a dangerous drug for some).
Most of the electorate take some form of drug – where you’re getting confused is that some are legal, and some aren’t. That’s merely historical.
If you had even the basics of an argument, you’d be able to tell us why the steady increase of cannabis use fell straight away upon reclassification – completely contrary to your belief in prohibition. You need to educate yourself on these issues before attempting further dialogue in public on them. This would be a good place to start:
http://www.dhsspsni.gov.uk/uk__focal__point__2008_l_report
http://www.dhsspsni.gov.uk/secondary_analysis_of_2007_ypbas.pdf
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/08/01112431/1
Thursday 5 November 2009 at 8:45 am
QZ,
Still waiting. I assume that you are unable to contradict what I have noted above, given your studious refusal to even acknowledge it.
Oh, and here’s Prof. Nutt – who, whatever you might try to cast him as, is an acknowledged expert on the matter of drugs (which, you don’t seem to be able to grasp, is WHY he was appointed to his role in the first place) – on the legal drug alcohol.
From The Times
November 5, 2009
Professor David Nutt attacks ministers over ‘failure’ on alcohol
Alcohol is the “gateway drug” that remains the greatest threat to society, and the Government’s failure to address the problem epitomises its disregard for scientific evidence, Professor David Nutt said yesterday.
Professor Nutt said that the comparison he made between the harm caused by alcohol and Ecstasy, which led to his dismissal as head of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, was incontrovertible. He questioned the Government’s arbitrary approach to the assessment and control of harmful substances, and how ministers might think that giving alcohol a harm ranking was a distraction.
“When I say alcohol is more dangerous than Ecstasy, cannabis and LSD, I mean it, and the council means it,” Professor Nutt said. “The Government has to wake up to this time bomb and the health risks of alcohol. Across the political spectrum everyone knows that alcohol is the biggest killer.”
Thursday 5 November 2009 at 11:57 am
I must say that the unfortunately named Prof. Nutt was out of line. While he has not said a single thing that wasn’t true on the scientific side, (did you know that more people die each year in falls from ladders than from drug (excluding alcohol)overdose) he has “supped wi’ the diel”.
As to Johnson he should have said, we have listened to our advisor and must say that when we weigh all the evidence of social as well as individual harm then we feel that cannabis should return to class B. He then would have been able to be questioned on what “social harm” this was, or was the decision based on trying to grab a couple of Daily Mail votes on the way past.
Nutt’s policy of standing with a petted lip slagging off the government for not listening is daft and is letting Johnson off the hook, we all just want to know how the decisions were reached that impact each and every one of us.
….and the funniest thing of all is that the classification of cannabis will have sod all effect on those who consume, traffic and deal in the drug.
Thursday 5 November 2009 at 1:15 pm
@Big Al
>”the funniest thing of all is that the >classification of cannabis will have sod >all effect on those who consume, traffic >and deal in the drug.”
There are over a quarter less cannabis users in the UK since reclassification. This is not “sod all effect”, it’s a dramatic, undeniable change in a long term trend.
Source :
http://www.dhsspsni.gov.uk/uk__focal__point__2008_l_report
Page 40 : Figure 2.2
(Although there are other examples the display the same trend in the publication.)
Prohibition is a bankrupt position, look at the evidence.
>”when we weigh all the evidence of
>social as well as individual harm then
>we feel that cannabis should return to
>class B”
He could never substantiate such a ridiculous sentence, in light of the facts. The governments/ACMDs drug policy has largely paid off regarding illegal drug use, but its been offset with alcohol (killed 2 of my close family members).
Source :
http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/UK-alcohol-trends-FULL.pdf
Page 9 : Figure 1
Thursday 5 November 2009 at 7:07 pm
Ploder:
Why do you imagine I am under any obligation to permit you to set the agenda and require me to speak to it?
I accept that you are not a drug addict, but your insistence seems like a mono mania on a thread whose blog post was principally about Nutt and his actions.
You may assume anything you like, but I am not wasting my time quoting the stat re the increase in Portuguese kids using marijhuana for example. Look it up.
Most of the stats and most of the links used on threads such as this, even when they are to “official” stats are unreliable imho.
Stay calm. Have a cup of tea.
Friday 6 November 2009 at 1:06 pm
>Most of the stats and most of the
>links used on threads such as this,
>even when they are to “official”
>stats are unreliable imho.
Who needs numbers when you know you’re right, eh? Sounds like you should be in the cabinet with views like that.
For anyone that likes to evaluated ideas based upon the best evidence we have to date, here is the data for Portugal :
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/greenwald_whitepaper.pdf
Well worth reading the accompanying notes too, they shed a great deal of light on this topic, and show how desperately misguided Quietzapple is.
Friday 6 November 2009 at 2:53 pm
QZ,
I offer rebuttals to what you say, and ask you to back up your stance. You have singularly failed to do so.
Very boring.
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