And another thing…

Scrape. Scrape. I really shouldn’t encourage you. But one doesn’t get far asking just for ‘fish’ at a fish counter or ‘bakery’ at the bakery counter. I’m starting to laugh now when I see that dinky #1 MP blog rosette. What happened to your high-quality (and oft-quirky) musing..?

Why is he wearing a yellow version of the breast cancer awareness twitter thingummy?

It was hardly a fishmonger, any more than the cheese and cold meat cabinet is a deli.

Does he have only that one tie?

I would wear that tie.

Quelle suprise! More vacuous, bitter, near hysterical Nat-bashing from Labour! Have you anything positive to say?

Yes – I like his tie.

Nice photo of a despairing Alec Salmond.

Seems like the Nats have dropped a real goolie with their candidate for the by-election.

It *is* a nice tie, isn’t it?

I’ll ask him on the weekend if he can remember where he got it…

Of course, let’s not stray onto substantive issues here like how Willie Bain would pay for his knife-crime policies, or where he stands on Afghanistan and Iraq, or what he’d vote for with regards Trident, or how he’d work to safeguard RBS & Lloyds jobs in the area or what he thinks on the euro.
No no, lets continue inane nonsense about where they live or were born, and what they’d say to people at a fishcounter….

“And what are you selling here, my good woman?”

“Smoked Salmond”

Quelle surprise! More trembling fury from a cyber-nat at anyone daring to question the Snuppies!

I would wear that tie, but not with that shirt.

Is Salmond saying “mammy!”?

So I arrive at a particular counter in a supermarket and I ask, “What are you selling here?” And the assistant says, “Fish”. Just for a moment, assuming that the counter looks just like any other counter,let us ask what is wrong with asking what is being sold?

It is very silly to denigrate a person for asking such a question. It is of no importance whatsoever. It makes me feel ill that a ‘prominent and respected’ MP (T Harris) can possibly be bothered to pursue such a minusculely important thing when our economy is about to be devastated by these idiot global warmists. To say nothing about these ‘health experts’ who are intent upon destroying our culture.

I like his tie, too, but it appeared on Newsnight (with David Kerr, of course), now Asda. It would be nice to see another one. Female voters notice that kind of thing, you know…..

File under “saving your own bacon”.

What ever happened to fighting the big fight?

Oh for goodness sake stop the Kerr baiting – Labour will walk it, not because your candidate is dramatically better than Mr Kerr, but because the SNP are losing their sheen, for a variety of reasons.

And as Math says, Afghanistan – that bottomless pit if blood and bodies – is of more importance than an encounter at an Asda fish counter.

The tie is monstrous, I agree

The tie is not monstrous; it is a nice tie, I would wear that tie. Stop dissing the tie, for goodness sake – it’s the only thing he’s got going for him!

@ Junican: It’s probably fair to say that Asda fish counters are pretty blatant about what they’re selling:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2331/2531445618_b1f1e86c22.jpg?v=1211989270

Poor old Kerr was obviously struggling to find something to say and fell back on the old standard ‘what do you do?’

Salmond’s face is a picture!

[...] Guardian, Tom Harris addthis_pub = 'mattwardman';addthis_logo = [...]

Oh dear.

Junican, you have never been to a supermarket fish counter have you?

@ Alec

More abuse and nat-bashing!!!

I’m actually not at all angry (I’m a chilled out sort of guy). I don’t consider myself to be a “cyber-nat” (which appears to have become a term of abuse against independence supporting bloggers who dare to question Labour in even the most moderate of ways). I’m a social democrat. I do support the SNP as I identify with their ambition for Scotland’s citizens and economy, their commitment to social justice, their commitment to renewable energy and their internationalism. I am genuinely saddened by Labour’s abandonment of it’s noble founding principles.

While there is still so much poverty, inequality, environmental degradation and conflict in the World I would like our political classes to discuss the positive, proactive visions they have for combating these problems and raising living standards. I’m not so interested about manufactured gaffes in supermarkets, birther like obsessions with how local the candidates are or how nice David Kerr’s tie is (for the record I think its swell). Sure, every party occasionally (or not so occasionally) indulges in the “Punch and Judy” but the Labour Party seems to have moved full swing into the “our opponents are rubbish” mode with constant near hysterical attacks on the SNP in every press release and statement. Is that really a healthy way to win votes? What I was getting at in my previous post is that it appears that Labour have resorted to this because they have run out of ideas. Perhaps they would benefit by listening to more progressive members of the Labour party such as Henry McLeish and Malcolm Chisholm.

Politicians of all hues need to understand that the propensity to drift into childish name calling is one of the reasons why so many people have stopped voting.

Hmm. I can see why you approve, it is a politician’s tie of course – it shrieks ‘look at me, I am vibrant, multicoloured and in your face, I am High St polyester ‘.

Salmond, by contrast, is wearing the statesman tie; it says ‘I am distinguished, I am the blue sky that covers you, I am House of Fraser Silk’.

Both facial expressions are amicable but unreadable!

Umm… Seeing as how the cyber-nats brought up the subject on policy what would David Kerr do to to safeguard RBS & Lloyds jobs in the area? Does Mr Kerr and the SNP think we should put more troops into Adfghanistan, keep the number the same or cut them? Does David kerr believe we should join the Euro?

Just a few questions which I’m sure he can also without any help from Alex or the SNP leaflet writers.

What is more interesting is that at the housing hustings Willie Bain went against Labour policy time and time again e.g. that councils not SG should decide local housing matters, that he opposed any privatisation of the post office, that the abolition of the 10p tax rate was wrong etc.

You could of course be a cynic and assume that he is just saying that to get elected and doesn’t really mean it but that is hardly the point. The more Labour candidates in Scotland feel they have to distance themselves from UK Labour the more separate the Scottish party becomes.

Do they really think they can play this gamed while remaining an integral part of the UK party?

Tom

Are you taking bets on how large Labours majority will be in winning this by-election

Tom Harris – “for goodness sake – it’s the only thing he’s got going for him!”

OK, lets all accept he is a loser. He has absolutely no redeeming features at all (beyond a tie.) He is to politics what a natural yoghurt is to astrophysics.

What happens if he wins ? Where does that leave Labour ?

>> More abuse and nat-bashing!!!

Oh, cry me a river.

>> I don’t consider myself to be a “cyber-nat” (which appears to have become a term of abuse against independence supporting bloggers who dare to question Labour in even the most moderate of ways).

I am not and never have been a member of the Labour Party. Don’t you get it? It’s the SNP I’m mocking – this has nothing do with tribal politics.

>> I’m a social democrat. I do support the SNP as I identify with their ambition for Scotland’s citizens and economy, their commitment to social justice, their commitment to renewable energy and their internationalism.

And would you like to teach the world to sing as well. Sorry, mate, my head is filled with wild laughing gaels at that piece of hogwash.

>> Politicians of all hues need to understand that the propensity to drift into childish name calling is one of the reasons why so many people have stopped voting.

Let’s have this discussion once more… what other politicians may have said should be tackled on their merits. None of this detracts from unacceptable/hilarious comments which may come from the SNP.

If you wish to discuss X, Y and Z, either find a compliant blog or write a suitable piece. I would hope that Tom would agree to put it up.

Not that the SNP has that much of a sense of self-awareness with their virulent anti-Dutch racism.

David Kerr is well ahead of Alex Salmond in the tie stakes and well ahead of Willie Bain.

Unfortunately Willie’s ties jump out and say either “When I grow up I want to be a Labour Councillor” or “Don’t forget to hand your essay in on MONDAY”

@ Alec

I guess your last post is a textbook example of the “trembling fury” you were alluding to before. Chill out fella!

“I am not and never have been a member of the Labour Party. Don’t you get it? It’s the SNP I’m mocking – this has nothing do with tribal politics.”

I didn’t say you were a member of the Labour Party. I don’t care about people mocking the SNP or any other party. The point of my contribution is that I would like to see more focus on substantive issues rather than petty point scoring and vitriol. Certainly, overly tribalised party politics is also part of the problem. For example, there is more that unites the progressive forces in Scottish politics (SNP, Greens, Lib Dems and traditional Labour) than divides. If we could break down some of that division we could deliver the full benefits of a progressive, social democratic Scotland at a much quicker pace. The same is true at a UK level.

“And would you like to teach the world to sing as well. Sorry, mate, my head is filled with wild laughing gaels at that piece of hogwash.”

A fantastic piece of reasoned argument there. I happen to believe it is right to strive to make the world a fairer more equitable place. I struggle to understand why anyone would want to ridicule such a desire.

I thought I’d found another tie, but, no, looks like the same one:

http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/universalnews/gallery-img-show/14-10-09-SNP-candidate-David-Kerr-launches-campaign/G0000F67H7yQV4Ac/?P_ID=P0000igApGnUpogc&_bqG=8&_bqH=eJwrcg8OMfBJKvaJ9PX1yy7O9LT0cyoszzC0cCu3MjQAIgMrK_d4TxdbdwMgcDMz9zCvDAwzcUxWCwCJBoBEM9MdC9zzQgvy05PV3D3j3R19fFyDIrFpAgALQB_r&I_ID=I0000H176RVClF34

But you know, The Tie, could really work for him. What it says is “I’m frugal” (and, by implication, will be frugal with taxpayers’ money). It says, “I’ll be focussed on the job” (rather than on which tie to wear).

And The Tie, itself, is absolutely right – its clashing colours say “I’m not afraid of confrontation when I stand up for the people of Glasgow North East” and the sloping stripes and vibrant colour say “I’m dynamic and fresh”.

I think The Tie is a deliberate strategy and that he has half a dozen, all the same, in his wardrobe.

Actually David Kerr’s tie says “Bought by my girlfriend”. Alex Salmond’s says “Bought by my wife”

An interesting analysis if the tie, Jay!

Although I think I saw one that looked just like it in a Slater’s sale a while back, so maybe he just got it because he got a good deal on it? Who knows.

I anticipate the battle of the ties superseding the battle of the births in this by-election!

>> I didn’t say you were a member of the Labour Party.

You presented yourself as a brave truth-teller who’s always being silence by New Labour aparachiks. I didn’t think you were suggesting I was a Tory.

>> A fantastic piece of reasoned argument there.

There was no claim it was anything other than a scoff at your piece of empty posture.

>> I happen to believe it is right to strive to make the world a fairer more equitable place. I struggle to understand why anyone would want to ridicule such a desire.

D’you also want everyone to get on with their neighbours’ sons? Okay, let’s look at what you said.

[*] I identify with their ambition for Scotland’s citizens and economy

Whereas critics of the SNP are, ipso facto, pro-Labour and anti-Scottish.

[*] their commitment to social justice.

Whereas critics of the SNP are, ipso facto, autocrats and anti-human (and pro-Labour and anti-Scottish).

>> their commitment to renewable energy

Being a social democrat has absolutely nothing to do with renewable energy.

>> and their internationalism.

What, allowing in tens of thousands of foreign nationals to settle each year? No-one has a right to enter any other country, and my guess is that the keenest supporters of such a scheme never would counternance living in the areas in question – preferring the most socially homogenous and ethnically uniform areas they can find.

Or the one which involved gifting hundreds of thousands of UK taxpapers money, with no oversight, to the Osama Saeed Promotion Society and his narrow brand of Islamism which does not have majority support amongst Muslims in Scottish?

Or standing side-by-side with the Khomenists and saying Scotland has a different foreign policy to Westminster?

Don’t make me laugh. These parochial, grievance-driven twits don’t have the first idea about internationalism, and see non-Europeans simply as blank slates.

>> For example, there is more that unites the progressive forces in Scottish politics (SNP, Greens, Lib Dems and traditional Labour) than divides.

Such as? Or is this a worthless, empty soundbite?

>> If we could break down some of that division we could deliver the full benefits of a progressive, social democratic Scotland at a much quicker pace. The same is true at a UK level.

And if I could get a date with hadise, I would be a much happier person. You have nothing to say.

No no, let the Labour clowns continue their pointless ad hominem attacks against the SNP.

Let them run a constantly negative campaign where they discuss nothing of substance, nothing of what they’d like to do if they win, merely what will happen if the people vote in that evil nationalist.

Worked so well for them in 2007 I was worried that they’d have learned their lesson and would actually offer a reasoned argument to vote for them, rather than mouth-frothing reasons to NOT vote SNP. Luckily they’ve not…

@ Alec

Hello again! The trembling fury is back!!!

“You presented yourself as a brave truth-teller who’s always being silence by New Labour apparatchiks.”

No. I didn’t.

“I didn’t think you were suggesting I was a Tory.”

I wasn’t suggesting you were anything.

“Whereas critics of the SNP are, ipso facto, pro-Labour and anti-Scottish.”

Nope. That statement is nonsense. Hence the reason I didn’t say it.

“Whereas critics of the SNP are, ipso facto, autocrats and anti-human (and pro-Labour and anti-Scottish).”

Nope, no and no again. More nonsense. That’s why I didn’t say it. That’s quite an imagination you have there.

“Being a social democrat has absolutely nothing to do with renewable energy.”

Who said it does? I certainly didn’t. Did you actually read my post???

“What, allowing in tens of thousands of foreign nationals to settle each year?”

Scotland has had an emigration problem and a generally falling and ageing population. We need people to come to Scotland to settle here. What’s the problem with that?

“my guess is that the keenest supporters of such a scheme never would countenance living in the areas in question – preferring the most socially homogenous and ethnically uniform areas they can find.”

My experience is that your guess is very wrong. I am a very keen supporter of immigration and I’m delighted and proud to live in a diverse and multi-cultural Scotland.

Anyway…

I was talking about internationalism: the desire for greater economic and political cooperation among nations for the theoretical benefit of all. In response you have inexplicably and bizarrely decided to rant on about immigration and ethnicity before going on to entertain us with weird, fantastical conspiracies about “Islamism”, “Khomenists” and “blank slates”(??!). Shall I fetch you your tin foil hat

“These parochial, grievance-driven twits don’t have the first idea about internationalism”

I disagree. The SNP’s policy positions on nuclear weapons, international co-operation, aid and international development demonstrate a keen understanding of internationalism. They don’t have the party political monopoly on internationalism (Labour for example have had a proud tradition of internationalism) but they clearly are an internationalist party.

“Such as?”

All these parties are left-of-centre politically with relatively close agreement on many issues and have broadly shared social democratic values. My point was that by working more closely together they could achieve a lot more much more rapidly.

“And if I could get a date with hadise, I would be a much happier person.”

I hope you get your date! I know someone who can lend you a lovely tie for the occasion!

Fraser, you need a crash course in joined-up thinking. Make a statement which can be reasonably interpreted as X, take responsibility for it when others do just that.

Not that I think this was inadvertent. I’ve seen this all before, and have combat experience in places which make Tom’s blog look like a picnic. This tactic is to make an open statement which one clearly discernable interpretation which, when looking at the totality of the post, is jolly well the one you wanted to be taken; but when someone savvy to this line of thinking comes along, to back-pedal and claim innocence.

Your rhetorical cowardice ain’t going to cut no ice with me, chuckles.

>> No. I didn’t.

Yes. You did. You invented an online campaign, by die-hard Labour supporters, out to silence the mildest criticism with the label “cybernat”… since you were responding to me, of course this was directed at me.

Since, I never have even voted Labour, you are either wrong or don’t even know what you’re arguing. Which is it? Inaccurate or stupid?

>> I wasn’t suggesting you were anything.

See above. D’you want a lie down?

>> Nope. That statement is nonsense. Hence the reason I didn’t say it.

Of course you implied it (unless you’re saying the Labour also supports them, and you’re opposing Labour for the sheer hell of it). At least have the courage of your misconvictions.

>> Who said it does? I certainly didn’t. Did you actually read my post???

You. Yes. Yes.

You called yourself a social democrat [with the sugar and spice and all things nice which go to someone as kind hearted as you]. You then proceeded to list reasons for your supporting the SNP.

Please. Try. Harder.

>> Scotland has had an emigration problem and a generally falling and ageing population. We need people to come to Scotland to settle here.

Justify.

>> What’s the problem with that?

Let’s send them to Marchmont or Bearsden. No, they’re going to go to Granton and the Gorbals (I would make jokes with Zimbabweans in Edinburgh about the former, and never once caused offence. I did frequently with the right-on middle-classes). But, it’ll be alright, ‘cos the residents of the former will visit their fayres every so often.

In my experience, the greatest supporters of “multiculturalism” or the expanded EU are generally rubbish linguists and live in the whitest areas they can find.

(Mr Eugenides has a great anecdote about an Asian shopkeeper in Glasgow telling Roy Jenkins that he’d been there “longer than him”.)

>> I was talking about internationalism: the desire for greater economic and political cooperation among nations for the theoretical benefit of all.

And this is effected by gifting 400 grand to the Scottish-Islamic Foundation for opening up business with Qataris and others who want Abdul Bassett-Baby released, and now knowing 70 grand never is going to be paid back ‘cos it was spent in set-up fees for an impossible project?

What does writing pleading letters to Mad Bob Mugabe, or the Burmese Generals (as they were cracking monks’ skulls) asking for Scotland to get observer’s status at the UN have to do with internationalism?

>> In response you have inexplicably and bizarrely decided to rant on [...]

There is a distinct possibility here that I know more about the SNP’s foreign policy brain ~*flatulence*~ than thee.

>> The SNP’s policy positions on nuclear weapons, international co-operation, aid and international development demonstrate a keen understanding of internationalism.

The SNP’s position is an amoral disgrace.

See discussion on Angus Robertson’s belief that an independent Scotland could graciously accept rent for military sites from Britain so to keep Scots in employment, but have clean-hands with Trident. No, she could not when she’d be gloming off a nuclear-armed military.

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/2009/10/defence-worthy-thoughts-of-macleod-and.html

Unsuprisingly, Indy’s making a tit of himself.

Also, by standing beside the Khomenists (please, at least give the impression you know what I mean), Fish-heid McMoonface damn well was giving immoral support to a regieme which is seeking nuclear weapons.

Lastly, it’s very easy to have these grand ideas on international co-operation when you don’t have to take responsibility for implementation.

>> My point was that by working more closely together they could achieve a lot more much more rapidly.

That really is lovely.

Hi again Alec!

It’s quite an experience debating with someone who indulges in such fantasy and changes the goal posts of reality to suit his own prejudices! Never mind… I’ll give it a go anyway!

“I’ve seen this all before, and have combat experience in places which make Tom’s blog look like a picnic.”

Wow! You’re the Bruce Willis of the blogging world! Cool.

“This tactic is to make an open statement which one clearly discernable interpretation which, when looking at the totality of the post, is jolly well the one you wanted to be taken; but when someone savvy to this line of thinking comes along, to back-pedal and claim innocence.”

Double wow! Your super perceptive and uber intelligent! It’s a shame that you’re totally wrong. I have been genuine and sincere in everything I have posted.

“Yes. You did. You invented an online campaign, by die-hard Labour supporters, out to silence the mildest criticism with the label “cybernat”… since you were responding to me, of course this was directed at me.”

Nope. No I didn’t. I don’t think there is any “online campaign” and I have never said there was. But don’t let the facts stop you seeing what you want to believe!

“Since, I never have even voted Labour”

I didn’t say you voted Labour. FACT. I wasn’t suggesting you were anything. Read it again. Take it at face value. There are no hidden meanings.

“Of course you implied it.”

Nope. I didn’t imply anything of the sort. You just made that up in your own head.

“You. Yes. Yes.”

Not me. No. Clearly not.

I didn’t say supporting renewable energy was social democratic. I listed it as one of the reasons I have chosen to support the SNP but I didn’t say it was social democratic. I said I was a social democrat in response to you calling me a “cyber nat”. I didn’t define what a social democrat was. I punctuated and THEN moved on to identify some of the reasons why I have decided to support the SNP.

“Justify.”

I did. With basic, irrefutable demographic facts. Look it up.

“Let’s send them (sic) to…
…. In my experience, the greatest supporters of “multiculturalism” or the expanded EU are generally rubbish linguists and live in the whitest areas they can find.”

I have never read such a load of ignorant, bovine excrement in my entire life. Truly frightening.

The answer to my question is that there isn’t a problem with encouraging immigration to Scotland to address our demographic shortfalls. I am always very *very* wary of people who decry multiculturalism. Britain has been a multicultural society since at least the Iron Age.

“And this is effected by gifting 400 grand to the Scottish-Islamic Foundation for opening up business with Qataris and others who want Abdul Bassett-Baby released”

Out comes the tin foil hat again! It’s all a big Islamist conspiracy! Summit to do with aliens and lizardy gecko folk as well I bet! Pesky SNP!!!

“writing pleading letters to Mad Bob Mugabe, or the Burmese Generals”

A slight rewriting of history there fella! The SNP wrote to the 122 countries that are part of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) asking for observer status at future meetings and to highlight their determination to help halt nuclear proliferation. Although I do think it would have been right to remove Zimbabwe and Burma from the mailing list, I think ridding the world of nuclear weapons is surely one of the most important and just internationalist causes.

As for the odious regimes of Mugabe and Burma, the SNP (along with the other main parties) has been completely supportive of the democracy movements in these countries. The real question is what can we do as a global community to efficiently undermine these regimes.

“There is a distinct possibility here that I know more about the SNP’s foreign policy brain…”

Well, OK. If you say so.

“~*flatulence*~”

Oooops! Pardon you.

“Angus Robertson’s belief that an independent Scotland could graciously accept rent for military sites from Britain so to keep Scots in employment, but have clean-hands with Trident”

Let us look at what Angus Robertson actually said…

<>

So first of all nothing about “rent” (that must have been another fabrication from your brilliantly creative mind). Secondly, envisaging mutually beneficial international co-operation post-independence isn’t a bad thing. Thirdly, it happens elsewhere in the world (example provided) so it is demonstrably workable. Fourthly, as an independent nation Scotland would obviously be able to have a veto on having nuclear weapons based here. Finally, the hope is that the UK decides to decommission its WMDs in the spirit of Barack Obama’s aim for a nuclear free world. Britain doesn’t need nuclear weapons and we can’t afford them.

“Also, by standing beside the Khomenists (please, at least give the impression you know what I mean), Fish-heid McMoonface damn well was giving immoral support to a regieme which is seeking nuclear weapons.”

Don’t worry. I know what Khomenism is. I also know, along with every other reasonable person with a grounding in reality, that Alex Salmond has never been guilty of “standing beside” them or giving support to the Iranian regime. More fantastical fabrications.

“Lastly, it’s very easy to have these grand ideas on international co-operation when you don’t have to take responsibility for implementation.”

Hence the reason why I believe Scotland should have the power to take such responsibility.

“That really is lovely.”

Thankyou! I’m glad you agree that it is important to strive for co-operation and human unity.

No offence but I’m going to stop debating with you now. I don’t think we’ll ever see eye-to-eye and we could end up going in circles forever. Nevertheless I enjoyed our discussion in a funny sort of way. Thanks for debating with me.

Ooops! Missing Angus Robertson quote from my last post…

“On the basis of mutual interest, it is perfectly possible to envisage circumstances in which we share basing, procurement and training facilities with the rest of the present UK – our foremost friend and ally under all constitutional arrangements – in exactly the same way as defence co-operation exists across Scandinavia.”

If anyone saw the STV hustings last night Willie Bain distanced himself from even more Labour policies – he was against Iraq, he thinks pensions are too low and of course he has invented this personal policy for Glasgow North East alone of locking up every single individual found carrying a knife for four years.

I think the Lib Dem candidate put it best when she asked him if he is elected will he actually be able to take the Labour whip!

My mother was right… sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. If I am not retreating certain points of yours, it’s ‘cos there is no point debating with someone who denies flatly what is displayed in easily retrivable ASCII format directly above.

>> I did. With basic, irrefutable demographic facts.

No you did not. You gave hearsay and secondary information. Try again.

>> Look it up.

Why should I? You made the claim.

>> I have never read such a load of ignorant, bovine excrement in my entire life. Truly frightening.

Lack of imagination and experience. There are many things more frightening that a comment on a blog.

Plus, anyone else notice how, after pleading exemption from the sequential conclusions following his own statements, Fraser is accusing me of reactionary racism?

I made no comment about the *concept* of multiculturalism… it was its more vocal *supporters*. What has been made possible is not a generous cosmopolitanism [Doestoevsky: oh, what a Jew you are], but a plural monoculturalism.

And, those who’d be on the front line of the social effects of further mass-immigration – potentially including, now, the grand-children of West Indian or Pakistani immigrants – are dismissed as European racists. Quite surreal.

>> I am always very *very* wary of people who decry multiculturalism.

Why? ‘Cos your sense of certainty on the issue is so weak that you cannot tholl criticism? ‘Cos anti-racism, for you, has become the Communism of the 21st Century?

Yes, the foreign cultures and individuals have made Britain an interesting place, but it jars a bit to be told that the domestic societies were less complete.

>> Britain has been a multicultural society since at least the Iron Age.

Hahahahahahaha! Are you now going to tell us that with diversity comes strength?

And what about the Bronze Age inhabitants or neolithic hunter gatherers? Were they less British?

You racist!

If you really must pursue this ahistorical line, the Vikings’ idea of cultural exchange was to efface the male-line on Orkney and take the land and women. A few hundred years later, there were riots against Danish settlers in York.

Does the persitence of the term “Danegeld” suggest an easy relationship?

Up until the mid 20th Century, in excess of 95% of the genetic line in Britain could have been traced back to the neolithic period (discounting antipathy felt towards the Catholic Irish in the mid 19th Century). Now as much as 1/3 is non-domestic.

For good or bad – or, more accurately, both – the immigration experience of the 20th Century has been different.

>> Out comes the tin foil hat again! It’s all a big Islamist conspiracy! Summit to do with aliens and lizardy gecko folk as well I bet! Pesky SNP!!!

You’ve done it again! You do not have the faintest idea what’s going on with the SIF.

>> Although I do think it would have been right to remove Zimbabwe and Burma from the mailing list, I think ridding the world of nuclear weapons is surely one of the most important and just internationalist causes.

So, you agree with jettisoning any principles or sense of solidarity with suffering strangers so to strut about on the international stage. Mere individual Zimbabweans and Burmese, don’t they realize that the Cult of Salmond is more important? I expect the Kosovars agreed with Salmond in 1999 that beating back Milosevic’s forces was a “grave and immoral mistake”.

I would prefer there were no nuclear weapons, but that genie ain’t going back in the bottle. There are ways to work to reduce their potential effect, but to think that an independent Scotland merits UN observer status is part of the same monstrous egotism which leads Salmond to think he could be UNSG.

>> Let us look at what Angus Robertson actually said […] So first of all nothing about “rent” (that must have been another fabrication from your brilliantly creative mind).

You really are not the brightest bulb in the pack, are you? If any foreign institution – private, civilian, military – maintains a presence in a third country, it is either renting or it’s in de facto occupation. Or, maybe this sharing of military procurement would involve Scotland paying all the bills and cleaning the floors.

Which principle of a plucky independent Scotland are you going to jettison next just so you could live, like a teenager in the side-room, with his Independence from the adults?

Robertson said he could think of no reason why this couldn’t continue. Well, Britain may not close the border, but she may object to being expected to reward an independent Scotland who wanted to take away the sweeties (cf. oil) but still ‘share’ everything which required bills.

>> I also know, along with every other reasonable person with a grounding in reality, that Alex Salmond has never been guilty of “standing beside” them or giving support to the Iranian regime.

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Iran-to-Holyrood-We-love.3878347.jp

Anyone who does this knows naff all about nuclear non-proliferation and naff all about internationalism.

>> Hence the reason why I believe Scotland should have the power to take such responsibility.

It first has to be demonstrated that an independent Scotland could do so, and giving your responses (and the SNP’s own performance), this is doubtful.

Alec

Round and round in circles we go. You continue to fail to find any grounding in reality. I enjoy political debate but some vestige of humility and a reasonable attitude is required to make debate possible. You display neither.

Anyway

given your bizarre, inexplicable and embittered ramblings on ethnicity in your last post (I’d love to hear what Bonnie Greer would make of your erroneous concept of human history) it has become evident that there is an quite unpleasant element to some of your opinions. I’m not comfortable with the concept of legitimising your flawed opinion formulation on such issues by engaging in “debate” with you. Consequently, I have decided to cease interaction with you. Life is too short.

You are an utter twit.

All the best.

You’re a liar and an ignorant fool, Fraser. You know nothing about the SIF and nothing about the meeting with the Iranian Ambassador.

I follow those politics quite closely. I don’t expect others to. I do, however, expect anyone claiming to have an opinion to have done so; which you manifestly have not.

Alex Massie deals quite well with your worthless, bubble gum-like, vitamin-free nonsense:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/5510076/sod-the-public-we-need-representatives-not-delegates.thtml

Anyone who knows the name Alden Pyle will recognize that it doesn’t matter how nice a person is, what’s needed is acumen and a coherent plan. But it’s all about you and your ego-driven desire to have perfect control of every aspect of governance.

~*you’re so vain you probably think the discussion’s about you*~

Alec

I really should allow the last word to you and stop my correspondence with you now as I said I would. However, I can’t help but respond to your abusive, deluded nonsense. If truth be known I’m enjoying myself! It’s becoming an addiction!

“You know nothing about the SIF and nothing about the meeting with the Iranian Ambassador.”

I do actually. Just because someone doesn’t conform to you narrow, negative and conspiracist interpretations doesn’t make them ignorant or foolish. Quite the contrary.

“I follow those politics quite closely. I don’t expect others to. I do, however, expect anyone claiming to have an opinion to have done so; which you manifestly have not.”

Just because somebody doesn’t doff a hat to your delusions and ill informed political opinions doesn’t make them less learned than you. What remarkable arrogance.

“Alex Massie deals quite well with your worthless, bubble gum-like, vitamin-free nonsense:”

I like and respect Alex Massie. However, just because he says something, it doesn’t make it right.

“But it’s all about you and your ego-driven desire to have perfect control of every aspect of governance.”

Fantastical, nonsensical, right-wing tosh.

~*you’re so vain you probably think the discussion’s about you*~

Baseless and random.

Look. As I said before we are just going in circles. The real reason I have come back in on this discussion is that I regret the pejorative turn our discussion has taken. We are clearly never going to agree on very many issues. It’s time to call it quits, salvage some mutual respect for one another and move on on positive terms.

>> I really should allow the last word to you and stop my correspondence with you now as I said I would.

Haha, you failed.

Some people come to this blog to widen their knowledge and to mag the cant. Others come to berate Tom and/or broadcast their views to a wide audience which would otherwise not be available even if they took the time to maintain their own blog.

Which do you do?

>> Just because somebody doesn’t doff a hat to your delusions and ill informed political opinions doesn’t make them less learned than you.

I don’t expect anyone to validate me without question. I do expect people claiming to be the only objective ones present to outline *why* they’re correct.

You have not. Go on, just a little hint you know anything about the SIF and Iranian Ambassador beyond that which, I assume, you’ve just Googled to get to my blog (judging by the spike of *precisely* the terms I’ve used in this thread).

>> What remarkable arrogance.

Nothing of the sort. Arrogance is, however, thinking that if only everyone knew how nice you were, everything would be perfect.

You’d need Edinburgh Rock to display your projections in this thread.

Ach well. Mair of yer invention, delusion and sophistry. A little less pejorative to be fair though.

Others shall be the judge, Alec.

Cheers

Fraser

There you go again, Fraser. If you had half the principles you claim to have, you would not be responding to me.

Thus, you’re either lying or have low personal standards (or both).

I made numerous explicit references to the SIF and the Iranian Ambassador, and your response was bottom-scraping sarcasm and to accuse me of tin-foillery. Now, like a cartoon character who’s sawn off the supporting branch, you’re dangling in the air wondering why there’s nothing under your bottom.

You are a Know Nothing.

PS Sophistry doesn’t mean what you think it does.

I should add that if Scotland’s (or the UK’s) population were in terminal decline, a way to redress this and show respect to the domestic population would be to work against emmigration and/or to encourage greater birth-rates.

Instead, materialists like New Labour and Fraser advocate importing cheap labour from abroad which doesn’t require the expensive set-up fees (i.e. child-raising).

@Indy

“If anyone saw the STV hustings last night Willie Bain distanced himself from even more Labour policies – he was against Iraq, he thinks pensions are too low and of course he has invented this personal policy for Glasgow North East alone of locking up every single individual found carrying a knife for four years.

I think the Lib Dem candidate put it best when she asked him if he is elected will he actually be able to take the Labour whip!”

And don’t forget he supports the postal strike as well!

I was quite glad to hear it all actually. Very refreshing. Whether or not he does those things if he gets elected is another thing altogether.

Slightly off topic but considering the fuss Labour have made about the SNP Government stopping funding for GARL what do you make of the Herald story about direct train services between Glasgow and London being axed under a major recasting of the route’s timetable being discussed by the Government and rail industry.

Can we assume this is rubbish, or what?

Yes, Indy, you can assume it’s rubbish. I’ve rarely seen a headline concocted on so little evidence. The claim that Glasgow won’t be served by a future East Coast train service is stated as bald fact, without even sourcing it to “an inside/government/DfT source”.

The franchise specification for the ECML has not yet been drawn up or approved, so on a point of fact, any claims that ANY station – Glasgow or anywhere else – won’t be served is nothing short of a lie.

Yes, They do lie.

You are a little backward in saying that imho.

At an Exeter labour event I met and asked Roy Hattersley why they didn’t say the tories lied, as they obviously did, Lots!

He snapped that it would be of no avail (sorry, my mind sanitises)

Truth is our only and excellent help, Reality our best recourse.

[...] for the SNP and Scottish Tory Boy discovers David Kerr’s not local and the last laugh goes to Tom Harris MP on the issue of David Kerr asking the girl behind the ASDA fish counter – what do you sell? [...]

the publication David Kerr is getting about his numerous slip ups are indeed amusing, reminding the GNE population exactly what the alternative is.
I found an old article about Kerr’s elitist views on higher education, he scoffs and Glasgow Caley and Paisley… surely in a constituency where only a very few would get the chance to attend higher education such as Glasgow Caley, as most are uneducated he has distanced himself from his current electorate… and shown that he is just another career politician who looks down on those he supposedly stands for… perhaps we need ‘ a breath of fresh air’ such as Smeato who has said he endevours to stand for the local people! just a little thought!