And another thing…

Let’s have an ‘in or out’ referendum and settle the matter once and for all.

I think the British people are sensible enough to see where their best interests lie and vote to stay in.

Bl**y hell, why is everyone focussed on Cameron for this?

It was Labour who PROMISED in their manifesto to hold a referendum on the treaty. They reneged on that promise and signed the thing into law (admittedly Brown tried to hide the fact by turning up late at night and hiding in a broom cupboard to do so).

If anyone deserves the public’s ire it is Brown and the rest of the New Labour mob who decided that a manifesto commitment isn’t worth the paper it is written on. Cameron is just going to have to clear up the mess they’ve made, on this and pretty much everything else you care to look at.

Actually Tom, the “Cast Iron” promise was made IF & ONLY IF, The Treaty had been ratified.
You may be happy bowing & grovelling to a federal Europe, I am not.
This was the long term ambition of Blair. Another betrayal of the UK by him for his own self serving ambitions.
Your party never intended to allow democratic freedom. It goes against everything you’ve worked so hard to destroy in this Country.
No probs. I can up sticks & emigrate, something I’m considering rather than live under a federal Europe.

@where’s my vote

The reason its all focused on Cameron, is that he’s the only person who can now fix the disaster (unless you count silent Brown who sold us down the river!)

I really don’t understand why we’ve never had the “in/out” referendum since the update of the EEC (something my dad voted for, but is unhappy that it changed)

You not even remotely ashamed Tom? That the party you represent would play fast and loose with democracy just to try to stitch up the Tories? The treaty is ratified now Tom, it has moved on. There is no Treaty to have a referendum on as it is about to become EU law. But how could this have come to pass? Were we not promised a referendum in a Labour manifesto pledge? Has there been some mistake?
I have in the past had a degree of respect for you Tom, but to see you derive such childish glee from how you clever little Labourites have stitched up those nasty Tories provokes nothing but disgust.

It’s a bit much Tom, getting at Cameron over this thing given that your party is the one that has gone back on an election manifesto pledge –

I suppose we shouldn’t have been surprised really I don’t think they have actually honoured any of their manifesto pledges over the years.

So on the basis it’s a good day to bury bad news, what can we expect the Government to put out?

Nice blog post.

I suspect that about a third of Tory voters would vote for withdrawal, perhaps rather more members of their party.

Mind you they will shortly be split on the form of referendum, as well as on the UK’s relationship with the EU, Ireland, the Channel Isles, I O M etc.

I think there should be a referendum on constitutional matters in 5 years time or so, after changes in the voting system (for the Lords perhaps?) have been in place so we can assess the results of the changes. Our way ahead in Europe, the Monarchy etc might be a part of that.

If Chameleon wins in 2010 I doubt he has much alternative but to hold an In or Out referendum, Hannan, Carswell, Redwood et al will make it impossible for him (or his successor) otherwise:

http://quietzapple.wordpress.com/

Tom, you really should be taking out your anger on your own party leader.

It’s your party who lied to the country over a referendum, not Cameron.

It’s your party leader whose incompetence will lose many Labour MPs their jobs next May.

Our relationship with Europe pales into insignificance when compared to the economic nightmare the next government will inherit.

This could be an opportunity for Cameron to show some political courage but it’s clear he just wants the EU ‘problem’ to disappear, so I’m expecting some pointless fudge as usual.

On the UK’s relationship with the EU, this is an issue which is not going to go away. One of the parties are going to have to grasp the nettle of ‘in or out’ sooner or later (probably later), especially when the EU begins to grab even more power.

Britain is no longer a fully sovereign state post Lisbon, so the British people deserve to have their say on the EU at the very least.

A Chameleon Candidacy, prospectively hobbled by a new set of bastards – not forgetting those of the old ones who haven’t gone the way of duck island and moat owners – is even less appealing, doncher think?

Referendum Dave, you know it makes more sense than running scared.

It does the Government absolutely no credit that it has placed Cameron in this position and to chortle at his discomfiture only adds insult to injury. This issue is too important for ‘yaboosucks’ point scoring.

But what does Labour care – it improves their chances at the next election even if they find themselves governing Westminster Parish Council.

Can I stick my fingers in my ears and shout “The Lisbon Treaty is the Constitution and I want a referendum” too?

Big Brave Dave made this promise knowing that the Lisbon Treaty was replacing the defeated constitution and knowing that in all likelihood it would be ratified before a general election.

He knew all that, he lied and this afternoon he will lie again.

At least he is putting the interests of the country ahead of the wide-eyed green ink brigade that dominate his party.

If you want to leave the EU, vote UKIP. And leave sensible politics to sensible parties.

Tom

Cameron is besing seduced by the prospect of power let alone the reality(and many others in his little Coterie).

There isnt going to any referendum ever the moment as they say has been and gone.
Most of the saner Eurosceptics(not very sane i admit)are more concerned with thier domestic agenda….and are just content with disliking Johnny foreigner (as long as they buy from us)

The number of opt-outs and benefits handed out by the EU Superstate to members in order to get them to sign up was disgraceful.

Why has there never been a decent, dispassionate case put before the British people on the benefits and costs assosciated with being part of the EU state (as opposed to a trading bloc)?

Why can’t we see some nice, fair judgements passed in the European Court that the British system was over-ruled on? Some piece of human rights or civil liberty handed to us from a centralised Europe that London had denied us?

The amount of subsidies some regions receive for growth, the amount we pay out on CAP compared to what our farmers get back in return.

This doesn’t have to be, and shouldn’t be, a party issue. To transfer power from democratically elected government in the UK to a non-democratic authority in Europe demands ratification from the people you are removing the power from, and I don’t mean MPs.

To allow the electorate to make an informed decision we need information, deviod of the rabid rantings of both sides and the childish glee in pointing out that one side or the other (both in fact!) are breaking promises on Europe.

Tom,
Labour’s miserable administration will be terminated at the next General Election (which cannot come soon enough for most people).

You will then have the luxury of at least 5 years on the back benches. You can usefully employ your time making paper aeroplanes to aim at Gordon Brown. On each you can write

“I MUST NOT BREAK MY MANIFESTO PLEDGES”

@Chris upon Thames
Actually when David Cameron made the original pledge the expectation was that Brown would either call an early election in autumn 2007 or otherwise go in May/June 2009 after a four year parliament. In the former case Lisbon was clearly not going to have been ratified by the election, in the latter it was still a possibility as shown by the delays in both Ireland and the Czech Republic.

When compared with most of the rest of Europe Britain is More independent of course.

Thanks largely to Gordon Brown whose 5 conditions to join the Euro have not been met.

I am quite sure, based on the relevant significant experiences of my lifetime – the Heath Accession, Wilson Referendum, Thatcher/Major Maastricht, Major/Lamont Euro shadowing – Acceptance at a silly rate, Brown’s 5 economic tests for joining the Euro, & of the Reform (Lisbon) Treaty by both major parties now – Labour will ensure appropriate independence for the UK and constructive use of our EU membership.

Evidence. Not hyperbole and lies.

(Sorry, Tom MsMac jittery when I mention Euros, so some text misplaced in previous attempt at this)

Come on commentators. Stop picking on Tom.

After all, remember that he is a Labour MP and therefore the concept of honouring a pledge, or simple political honesty, is beyond him.

Every time you try and have a bit of fun at Cameron over Europe whilst dancing to the strains of Ode To Joy at full volume on your Ipod you singularly fail to hear the screams of the British people shouting at you about YOUR gutless cowardice in not letting us have a say in the matter.

This is unfortunately the utter failure of the our system of representative democracy that you, our so-called representative, finds more glee in the Conservative position than bothering to represent the views of us as expressed in poll after poll after poll.

Tim

So you are saying that Cameron made the promise in the expectation that the only way he would be in a position to deliver on his cast iron guarantee would be that Labour would call a snap election and then lose it.

Either way it is thoroughly dishonest. He knew he would never have to make good his promise.

Of course campaigning on this promise in this year’s euro elections was just as devious.

http://www.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2009/04/Join_our_campaign_for_an_EU_referendum.aspx

“one day he promised a referendum, the next he backtracked” Well I giggled

TOM – YOU PROMISED US A REFERENDUM. YOU !

Glass houses you know. All it means is every politician is a liar. Great high ground you’re on.

You’d be no good as a robber, Tom. You’re always returning to the scene of the crime.

Can’t you understand that nobody is interested in your diversions? Well, except new boy Quietzapple.

As for “foamers”, isn’t ‘deniers’ the in-word to discredit your adversaries without the inconvenience of a proper debate?

‘You can usefully employ your time making paper aeroplanes to aim at Gordon Brown. On each you can write

“I MUST NOT BREAK MY MANIFESTO PLEDGES”’

even if i have gone to court to establish that a manifesto ‘pledge’ is of no value whatsoever !

The electorate will not forget that it was a Labour GOVERNMENT which made a Manifesto Commitment to hold a Referendum and then, with the connivance of the LibDems, broke their promise.

You cannot have a Referendum on a Treaty which has already been ratified, if the terms of that Treaty have already been enacted.

Cameron should pledge Euroscepticism in his Election Manifesto and – assuming he wins – start talking to the EU about repatriating powers with their consent and with the threat of a Referendum to gain electoral support if they won’t comply.

What a sad blog this is and what a sad politician you are. It is obvious you do not take the future of this Country seriously.

Perhaps you think that after the last 13 years of this disasterous Labour administration you don’t think the Country has an independent future and you may well now be right.

Now Lisbon is in force with it’s amending powers of future power grabs of national competences, what is the point of national governments, and particularly ours?

Why not just give up, abandon parliament for all the good you have done and save us all a lot of money. Or alternatively increase benefits from the money saved and give to the ever needy underclass your Government has created.

I think you have some neck Tom. When the Labour government promised a referendum and went back on their word. The Tories have consistanly said that if the treaty was ratified they would have to come up with something else, So You are wrong in what you have said.

@Quietzapple When compared with most of the rest of Europe Britain is more independent of course.

I note that you use the phrase ‘more independent’ not fully independent.

And I suspect you did because you know full well Lisbon erodes Britain’s status as a sovereign democratic nation.

And we know Lisbon does this because the Tory’s (and other parties’) have admitted that Lisbon can’t now be unratified.

In a democratic sovereign state, like Britain used to be, one of the fundamental principles is that; ‘no parliament can bound its successors’.

All previous EU treaties could have been undone by an act of Parliament; however, Lisbon can’t because it has embedded itself as a constitution which makes the EU a state in international law and EU law supreme over the UK.

The other clue is article 50 within the Lisbon Treaty which ‘allows’ EU states to leave the EU via negotiation (note the word negotiation), if our parliament (thus country) was truly sovereign this clause would be irrelevant and unnecessary.

All this foaming about Labour supposedly breaking a manifesto promise is based on a misunderstanding. However, it’s a misunderstanding which has been deliberately exploited by the Tories to try and deflect attention from the egg thoroughly splattered all over Dave’s face.

Labour’s manifesto did not promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. It promised a referendum on the Constitution. The Constitution was then thrown out by the French and the Dutch. No Constitution – therefore, no referendum.

Dave, on the other hand, did promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. He’s been decisively wrong-footed and his damage limitation exercise to spin it for all it’s worth into an attack on Labour – and he’s hoping the electorate are going to be stupid enough to swallow it.

Are people that stupid? Hmmmm …..

Nicky – “Are people that stupid? Hmmmm…”

They are if they believe the ultimate goal of the EU empire-builders is any different now than it was when they were trying to introduce a ‘Constitution’.

This ‘cast-iron guarantee’ pledge was made in 2007 before your leader dilly-dallied and fluffed the election. Cameron made the pledge when an election looked likely. There was no election so therefore that scuppered it. Very simple Tom… not too difficult to grasp.

Also, it’s a fairly simple concept for me. If we are to have a president of Europe, I want to have a vote to elect or remove someone. We don’t get this with Lisbon. The EU is wholly undemocratic and would be a bit easier to stomach if it were democratic. But as we know with your party leader’s broken referendum promise, democracy’s alright until the people vote the wrong way and deliver a decision that differs from what the leaders want.

I have just found out that Guadaloupe, a warm and magical tropical paradise island in the Caribbean is actually part of the EU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadeloupe

Which means I have the RIGHT to live there, claim benefits and drink subsidised Claret.

Sorted.

@ Nicky “All this foaming about Labour supposedly breaking a manifesto promise is based on a misunderstanding”.

Sorry Nicky the only people that buy that line appear to be you and Gordon.

Gahh, I’m so sick of you lot trying to show his this makes him Dishonest Dave. YOUR LOT were the ones who denied us a referendum. You gave up any right to comment on Tory EUropean policy went you bent over backwards for Brussels.

And why didn’t you want to ask the people? If you thought we’d say ‘yes’ then you might as well have asked – give the whole thing some legitimacy. If you thought we’d say ‘no’ then you should have done what your constituents wanted. Yes, those people you’re meant to REPRESENT – not rule over like some kind of despot.

Thanks Labour. 12 years in power and you’ve given us the deepest recession in history, more inequality than under Thatcher, massive debt (both public and private, thanks to your incompetence in running the economy) and then, to top it all off, you’ve given everything away to Brussels.

Rant over.

“Rant over.”

You know, I doubt that somehow, Mark.

@Mark M “Thanks Labour. 12 years in power and you’ve given us the deepest recession in history, more inequality than under Thatcher, massive debt (both public and private, thanks to your incompetence in running the economy) and then, to top it all off, you’ve given everything away to Brussels.”

Mark M, you ought to send that over to Alastair Campbell. His recipe for a sure-fire victory at the next Election is for Labour to list their achievements. Your summary should do nicely…..

Cast iron is a brittle material that shatters into small pieces when firmly hit by a hard object, so the “guarantee” has performed as one might expect – which is more than can be said about Labour’s promise of a referendum.

The British parliament is sovereign, deriving its legitimacy from the British people.

No treaty can abrogate that, although Lisbon says negotiation is the way to go.

Ask Dan Hannan or any of the other Tory sceptics, or any constitutional lawyer.

And please do your own googling.

Old Holborn will need some orientation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningzone/clips/les-sp-cialit-s-de-la-guadeloupe/1714.html

No mention of claret. Coca mind . . .

Oh, Nicky, fraid it is rarely a misunderstanding, most of them are capable of repeating an untruth to wind others up – trolling I believe they call it.

When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.’ ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all.’

for-Humpty Dumpty read David Cameron

Quietzapple – it is you who are wrong. The case of Factortame Ltd (R v Secretary of State for Transport ex parte Factortame Ltd 1991) shows this.

Detail is below but in essence the 1972 European Communities Act already places European Courts above national law.

If the supremacy within the European Community of Community law over the national law of member states was not always inherent in the EEC Treaty it was certainly well established in the jurisprudence of the Court of Justice long before the United Kingdom joined the Community. Thus whatever limitation of its sovereignty Parliament accepted when it enacted the European Communities Act 1972 was entirely voluntary. Under the terms of the 1972 Act it has always been clear that it was the duty of a United Kingdom court, when delivering final judgment, to override any rule of national law found to be in conflict with any directly enforceable rule of Community law

Why does your site shows an advert for a book supporting the UK’s exit from the EU? Are you now a eurosceptic?

No, it’s just an ad, and though I have the right to veto specific ads, I rarely do. Free speech and all that malarkey…

Funny how someone calling him/herself “Wheresmyvote” imagines that sovereignty is shown eternally and in one legal action to have been signed away by Ted Heath.

If we can get out of the EU (and we could if we chose) the UK Parliament is sovereign, because thereby we could abrogate all EU legislation’s operations in the UK. The Lisbon Treaty even enshrines that, presumably to reassure (LOL) the nervous tri-cameralists, single sea-ers, patriots for Dogger bank & etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

That is the biggie, but there are lots of other arguments which constitutional lawyers earn multo mazoomah from.

Charlie said “You can usefully employ your time making paper aeroplanes to aim at Gordon Brown [after losing the next election].”

Throw a mobile phone at him instead – I hear he likes to do that when he’s having a temper tantrum.

On a more serious note, Call Me Dave’s dishonesty is truly up there now with Gordon Brown’s. One promised a referendum and then changed his mind. The other promised a referendum and later changed his mind. What’s the difference?

Thicky
Wednesday 4 November 2009 at 3:55 pm
Labour’s manifesto did not promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

**********************************************

Ah, now I get it. And all that time there was I thinking…

Silly old me, eh.

Everyone knows that the ~Constitution, having been voted down by the French and the Irish and the Danes, was then renamed the Lisbon treaty and only two out of 455 clauses were dropped.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks, its a bloody duck.

Giscard who wrote it said it was the same, so did Merkel, so did the PM of Spain, so did the poor little labour MP who sat on the writiing group. Only someone as twisted as Brown could deny that and say they are all out of step, except him. And all the little labour mps nod to order. What hypocracy.

Tom, the guarantee was fulfilled in the Commons vote. You remember, the same one where you broke your manifesto pledge?

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2008-03-05&number=117&display=allvotes

Steve:

Giscard D’Estaign was not a little miffed that his work on the failed Constitution was rejected.
The Lisbon Treaty is miles shorter I am told.

Neow, if your beloved work, and all that led up to it was turned down and then a necessary Reform Treaty was introduced, as a wily French politician seeking to safeguard your “Legacy” would you just say “Bien, C’est la vie.”?

The resignation of Dan Han from their EU front bench, after he has played his role in leading them into partnership with the nazi sympathisers and homophobes is just the beginning . . .

Why don’t you tell us about what Labour promised in terms of a referendum during the last election Tom?

I realise that as a socialist you have an inherent contempt for democracy but really, the lack of shame from Labour MPs over forcing through the Lisbon Treaty is incredible. Even more repulsive is the gloating over Cameron no longer being able to put the thing to a meaningful referendum due to governments like yours pushing it through without putting it to the vote and before his incoming administration would have the chance to. Pathetic all round.

““Rant over.”

You know, I doubt that somehow, Mark.”

Tom, I enjoy happy flashbacks to high school standard snarky ‘debating’ as much as the next fellow but how about trying to deal with the points he’s raised?

The European Court ban on Christian crosses being display in Italian schools presents an interesting test case of the power of European laws over local laws.

The ban was “in contradiction with state law that no parliament or even the Constitutional Court ever has changed,” Monsignor Giu-seppe Bertori, the secretary of the bishops’ conference, said. ”

The ban has caused outrage across Italy, and stems from a case brought by the Union of Italian Muslims. The school in question has 30 days to appeal.

I’ll probably transfer my vote from Conservative to UKIP at the next general election.

But do not gloat even on jot Tom. ALL my anger, disgust, contempt & loathing is for Brown and the whole of NuLabour for destroying our country and century’s of hard won liberties & democratic rights.

If I could guarantee that those who voted in favour of the Lisbon treaty were all gathered safely alone in Parliament, I would gladly carry Guy Fawkes upon my shoulders if he had succeeded today with his plot. No doubt that makes me a hate criminal in NuLabours world.

To gloat places you beneath contempt. You should rather be hanging your head in shame that our nation has been prostituted like this.

Look…. Cameron has made a complete cock-up, no ifs, no buts.
Because Labour has done the same dosn’t excuse him from lying to us.
How many Tory seats in Scotland now?.

Saltirethinking,

to recap; Blair and Brown promised a referendum and put that promise in their manifesto. After being elected, they then went back on that promise and signed the Lisbon treaty without a referendum.

Cameron promised a referendum if he won the election. Since the treaty was ratified before the election took place, he can no longer offer that pledge, hence it has not put it in the Tory manifesto. He hasn’t lied at all.

It was Brown that made a promise, had the power to fulfil his pledge and reneged on it.

If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at Brown.

Not so, Simon. Dave said: “Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM, a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations.”

No ifs, no buts, no qualifications, no caveats… a “cast-iron guarantee”. He didn’t say “unless the treaty has been ratified before we come to power”, although he could have said exactly that. He chose not to.

And then he changed his mind. Oh well.

@Tom Harris5.03pm – He then went on to say, “No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum”.

In context, in 2007, the Treaty hadn’t been fully ratified and it was possible that the Tories would be elected into power at the expected election. I interpreted his statement to mean that were he to win the forthcoming election, he would offer a referendum on whether or not Britain should accept the Treaty. The election didn’t, of course, take place and the Irish and Czechs have since been strong-armed into ratification.

With that, the terms of reference have changed: Cameron can’t ask us whether we wish to ratify the Treaty to complete ratification because full ratification is already complete!

I think that it’s all going to end in tears, sooner or later.

Tom, can you give a link or other reference to the Chameleon quote please?

‘The Witney and District Museum has many artefacts and documents representing the history of the town’ (WIKI) and may be grateful for details, I’m sure an exhibit will shortly be prepared

My pleasure.

@Quietzapple: A constitutional lawyer would probably suggest that British sovereignty comes from the Crown in Parliament. HMG, in particular, has never accepted that it flows from the British people and so, for instance, ultimate title to all land vests in the Crown. Practically, they require our acquiescence, but I do not believe they accept that they need it as a matter of law. Perhaps the calls for British sovereignty should begin at home?

@Simon: While we’re on the subject of lawyers, a High Court judge also said that the Constitutional Treaty and Lisbon Treaty were different too. After hearing argument on both sides.

I hate you Tom. I think you are a smug lickspittle, and I hope you die an agonizing death utterly alone and unloved.

It also looks like Quietzapple is your sockpuppet.

@Nick “a High Court judge also said that the Constitutional Treaty and Lisbon Treaty were different ”

Nick, that’s like arguing that Dulux Barley White and Magnolia are different colours. Of course they are, but to the naked are they are as good as identical. The European constitution and the Lisbon treaty are largely the same, which is why the is so much anger at Labour’s swindle over the referendum.

@antipholus – Not sure how you can hate someone you’ve never met, but I can only suggest you stay away if you don’t appreciate Tom’s smugness. After all, he has’t many opportunities to be smug this year.

@Antipholus Papps

Not a complete argument I think.

So, Tom, Chameleon said: “I’ll give the EU a VOTE”?

And those who have had the phrase “sock puppet” implanted are following the Billionaire Press line?

To help their maistres evade the tax which will overtake them when Gordon Brown & Co abolish the taxes which would take £50m, for example, from tory scandal Lord Laidlaw?