HOW SHOULD a modern, left-of-centre political party which has been in power for more than 12 years respond to the growing gap between rich and poor?
“Tax the rich” is the obvious knee-jerk reaction from some. And they will have their chance to press home their case once Harriet Harman’s report on inequality is published in the new year.
The logic seems to be this: Labour’s eschewing of traditional Labour tax-and-spend policies has led to the current disparity between the lowest and the highest paid; soaking the rich would therefore, of itself, make Labour popular enough to win a fourth general election as well as narrowing the incomes gap.
Except that this analysis seems to overlook the fact that Labour won the last three general elections with a commitment not to reintroduce punitive tax rates. Are the electorate really turning to David Cameron because they believe he will tax them more?
And there is absolutely no point at all in taxing the highest earners more unless you intend to do something positive for the lowest paid with the revenue raised. Sure, reducing the incomes of the rich would, at a stroke, reduce income equality. Even if you just banked whatever tax you raised and didn’t use it for anything, income inequality would be reduced because you’ve reduced the incomes of those at the higher end of the income scale. Job done?
Well, no, obviously. Such a move would stink. There is nothing intrinsically good or moral in taxing for its own sake. If, on the other hand, extra tax revenues were used to achieve something – raising tax thresholds for the lowest paid, for instance – then that would be worth looking at. The only problem is: how much extra tax would you have to raise to make any meaningful impact on thresholds? Top rate tax rises bring diminishing returns, so there’s no bottomless pit of readies in that direction.
What, other than tax thresholds, are the mechanisms for raising the poorest up? We know how to bring the richest down, but once we’ve done that, how do we use that money raised to benefit the poorest? Increasing benefits? In general, no. Keeping people and families on benefit is a sure-fire way to entrench real, absolute and relative poverty. Increase tax credits? Fine, but apart from the pension credit, tax credits are mainly aimed at making work pay. I’m not aware of any evidence that low tax credit rates are responsible for low take-up of paid employment.
There are certainly plenty of areas of social policy which could do with the extra money, but none of them would directly or easily close the incomes gap.
Tony Blair and – let’s not forget – Gordon Brown put a great deal of effort into reinventing Labour as a low tax party. As a result, we won three general elections in a row, and as a result of that, we introduced the minimum wage, tax credits and the New Deal, raising nearly a million pensioners and 600,000 children above the poverty line.
So why has incomes equality increased? And is it the inevitable consequence of a booming economy, as the UK’s was until the global recession started to bite?
More to the point, does anyone seriously believe that if the Tories instead of Labour had been in power since 1997, incomes equality would have been narrower than they are today? Without the minimum wage and tax credits it would surely have been even greater.
The Tories, of course, will be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of this debate within the party, and praying that we come down unequivocally on the “soak the rich” side of the argument.
Personally, I’d rather we stay in government.














Monday 9 November 2009 at 10:48 am
just so Labour.
All about tax never about earning.
People are poorer because of Labour Taxes, the rich will always avoid high taxes.
You just totaly miss the point.
How can the country earn more wealth not how much more we can we tax. God help us.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 10:55 am
Tom if you want to know what wrong with politics today just look at the main candidates for the election on Thurs.
From The Guardian
“The four main party candidates are Labour’s Bain, 36, a law lecturer; the Liberal Democrats’ Baxendale, 64, a councillor and former social worker; the Tories’ Davidson, 30, a former journalist and the SNP’s Kerr, 36, also a former journalist.”
Most of you appear to all have backgrounds like this. There is no one who has ” worked” or run anything for a living all they know is spend not earn.
Lets have some discrimination on having people know how thingds work and how to make wealth.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:05 am
Tom,
Taxing the rich punitively stifles innovation and entrepeneurs with the net result that the rich leave. Thankfully you don’t overly support this move!
I do not see why we do not have a higher tax threshold, as when you end up on benefis, it is often worse financially (or not much point) in working past a set point due to the system. I know of a girl (wife’s colleague) who works part-time but realises that if she were to work more, her benefits would cease and that means more work for less money! The system at the bottom is wrong and needs addressing.
Whether the gap would be similar if Tories had been in for 12 years? Cannot say, but maybe in 12 years time we’ll find out
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:06 am
Generally – Horse. Door. Stable.
The post raises other issues though:
Does the NMW somehow contribute to income inequality? People who are capable of commanding a higher salary have a higher benchmark with the NMW.
Furthermore the idea that it is the same despite very different local living costs means that you have no need to push yourself to do better in a poor area – you may aswell have a stress free basic job than try to forge a career for no tangible benefit.
The problem with all of this is that when you talk of equality people think “yeah, I want nice things too.” What you fail to mention is that they are not elevated – just everyone else is brought down. Pure politics of envy.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:13 am
Some of the disparity must be down to inadequate take up of tax credits. If the system was operated, at least in part, through the Inland Revenue more people would be alerted to their entitlements.
Much of the increase in disparities of income is almost certainly due to the economic expansion Labour led. Comes with the territory of private sector expansion.
People have turned to Chameleon – so far as they have – despite himself, in reaction to the Billionaire led media rubbishing of Labour, with a World wide recession, and wars to maintain our country’s security. It is a Buggins’ turn mood.
Renewal will not wash wars & the recession away. Gordon Brown will have to sell his vision for the future at the right time, as I expect he has known for some time. And fair shares for all will come better from a party led by people who do not expect to inherit a knighthood, or many millions of pounds.
There is good hope, I believe Tom. Major didn’t look like getting a fourth term for the Thatcherites, did he? And Chameleon’s shiftiness upsets people . . .
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:13 am
I am sure you would rather be in government Tom. Nobody has ever knowingly accused New Labour of not wanting power.
A decent education system would go along way to helping things. Let members of poor families have a fighting chance of becoming rich with the implications that has for their family. Maybe start with grammar schools in urban areas.
By creating a benefits culture you are retarding the development of communities. The disparity will become more prevalent because of it. We need innovation not wealth redistribution in the form of employing people in sterile non-jobs or giving hand-outs. Dependency drags people down despite best intentions.
If you guys were in for another term the wealth creators would get taxed into ineffectiveness and the government would be left scratching their heads wondering where the economy went.
I can assure you Tom, you have screwed the country up quite enough on this run (granted it took 12 years to run out of cash this time, longer than usual)
Don’t worry though, once you are out and after pain, struggle and some tough honest decisions we will become more comfortable again. Then, because the electorate have short memories, you will be allowed back in to office with talks of dreams and fairness and then you will be able to bankrupt us and delve into our affairs all over again Tom.
“You can shear a sheep many times but skin it only once”.
Just go quietly now though so there is still enough of a country for you chaps to obliterate next time round.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:23 am
As someone working in the productive part of the economy I agree with you that this knee-jerk reaction is the wrong one. But in reality there is no more money in the coffers and therefore any “problem” even one that was part of a pledge before 1997 is seen as an opportunity to tax.
See the leaked reports on the front line services that will be cut in the unlikely event of Brown being re-elected for a reason as to why the cash is needed.
Harman is the worst exponent of this idea. In her blind eagerness to be at the head of Labours inevitable post-defeat swing to the left she is trying to position herself as a “soak the rich” candidate. She seems stuck in 1977 somewhere concentrating on nonsense “equality” laws with their usual unintended consequences – see the Human Rights act for a worked example.
And again those of us in the middle bit, not the rich who can avoid these taxes, will end up paying for the mistakes and mismanagement, the legal cases, the compensation to the “wronged” party again and again.
If you want to do something to help with wealth inequality then do something about the “wicked” (descrbed by Frank Field of all people) benefits trap, especially the part where people helping themselves immediately get smacked down by the removal of benefits often higher than the income those at the bottom can earn, making helping themselves not worth it.
Even the worst “soak the rich” advocat knows that getting people into work is the fastest route out of poverty.
If you want to do something useful with the tax system make it simpler. Removing some of the loopholes would increase income allowing the overall rates to be much lower.
And finally get rid of rax credits. They are over complicated, badly managed and costing us a fortune in red-tape and mistakes all because Brown couldn’t wait to get his hands on things outside his remit – i.e. benefits.
And maybe, just maybe, consider if you are in the wrong party for these circumstances.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:25 am
There’s an image that the phrase ‘growing gap between rich and poor’ conjures up – that is, a Dickensian vision of a huddled mass of the impoverished, contrasted with a load of rich b******s.
This neatly fits with Cameroon’s ludicrous statement at Conference about the Tories being the party of the poor. Does he imagine that people have such short memories that they don’t remember the Tory years when, for instance, some pensioners had to choose between whether they paid for food or fuel (which had VAT slapped on it)? (No Winter Fuel Allowance then.) Er, yes, he’s probably banking on people just taking for granted that they’re better off. Whether people at the other end of the spectrum have a lot more isn’t really here or there.
The wealthier people are wealthy because they’ve done well from a booming economy, not because of any decrease in the income of the poorer.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:45 am
Raise the tax threshold to a really sensible level, over £10k. That would mean that many who now have to apply for tax credits would no longer have to. Tax credits do work for some people, sure, but they are also a handy way for industry to pay low wages and get the taxpayer to, in effect, subsidise them.
I had to draw down from my pension last just to survive. Nevertheless, the government took their wodge, of course. If they really wanted to help pensioners, and those such as myself – I have been looking for work for three years with no success at all – then raise the tax threshold – and simplify (yeah, I know, it is not a word in Gordon Brown’s lexicon) the tax system.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 11:59 am
I might be wrong (don’t worry my wife tells me that I always am) but this sounds suspiciously like the post election battle for the soul of the Labour party has started early.
P.S. Do you have any thoughts on Brown’s recent troubles Tom?
Monday 9 November 2009 at 12:02 pm
A few points here:
Poverty is a statistical measurement based on the median level of wages – so a recession can actually REDUCE poverty.
Income inequality is NOT intrinsically a bad thing. Phenomenally successful people should be allowed, encouraged even, so that others may follow. Income inequality has been rising under labour during the boom years (end of boom and bust, roflmao) and the recession has actually decreased it, at the cost of the middle earners rather than the benefit of the lower earners.
Taxes are payment by the population for a service. To this end the government should stay out of as many businesses as possible as public services charge more to higher earners than lower earners for the same service – NB earners, not wealthy – a billionaire who doesn’t work pays the same for health/defence/education etc. as someone who lives in a council house on benefits.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 12:28 pm
In which parallel universe was Labour ever a low tax party? Even before the economy collapsed, Mr Brown was spending money so fast that he had to borrow to keep up.
The standard headline income tax rate might have fallen slightly, but that’s been more than compensated for by the rises in NI, fuel tax, airport tax, and many other things that we all need for our daily lives. Those who have lost out because of the 10p tax debacle won’t be very sympathetic, and my status means that the Treasury sees me purely as a cash cow.
Tax should only be raised for things that are absolutely necessary, and pet social engineering projects are not even close to that.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 12:31 pm
Exactly. It’s about how we can make the poor richer, not how to make the rich poorer.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 12:44 pm
more social mobility you swop some poor people with some rich people and then at least the poor can have a better life
And the rich can live on the breadline.
seems fair to me
Thatcher and Major was destroyed by her economic polices. Blair/Brown continued the same Economic policys(with a nod to the worse off) mitigated some of the effects with the minmum wage/Holiday pay etc………..
and now they have been or are being destroyed along comes Cameron attempting to relaunch another Thatcherite revolution..bit of a trend here perhaps the Economic policys need to be reconsidered.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 1:26 pm
Too many on the left ake the assumption that the best way to achieve what they consider fairness is to raise the taxes on high earners. History shows us however that when these tax rates are reduced, both the total tax take, and the proportion of it paid by the highest earners, increases. The choice is between squeezing the rich for ideological and/or spiteful reasons or increasing both income and the amount of burden carried by the richest.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 1:33 pm
Agree with Johnny re politicos in general. Tom Gallagher describes the SNP contingent at Holyrood thus:
‘. . .close look at its parliamentary benches indicates they are dominated by solicitors, and management, media, and marketing figures as well as ex-councillors and numerous others who have spent nearly all their adult lives as political activists. As has been shown with New Labour, these are not the types of politicians who are natural pluralists, but rather ones who prefer to husband power.’
Gallagher’s view – one lots of us share from a wide variety of political perspectives – is that MPs in general seem to have little experience of the real world, and the same can be said in spades for MSPs.
But what about taxes? Mr Harris’ view is one that goes back to the early 20th century (at least), and is a genuine conundrum – what’s the point of a leftie party if it doesn’t get elected? The solution is to persuade those who pay tax that it is worth it, not an easy task.
And the reason Scots will never vote for independence is quite simple: the tax base of the nation will be too low to maintain what needs to be maintained.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 2:20 pm
“Tony Blair and – let’s not forget – Gordon Brown put a great deal of effort into reinventing Labour as a low tax party”
More like the illusion of a low tax party.
Only a non tax payer could make a comment like that.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 2:31 pm
Mr Mxy,
There is a trend – Labour spend money we haven’t got, plunge us into the red and almost bankrupt us, Conservatives get the country back on a sound financial footing but because it was painful people hark back to incompetent management of the economy. Simples.
The Labour party have propagated the idea that the Conservative party don’t WANT to spend money on services when the fact is that Labour’s incompetence means they had t show restraint.
I heard some chump dribbling on about school roofs not being repaired under the Tories. Does anybody HONESTLY think that they would relish schools decaying? Or is it more likely – just maybe – that the only way to sort out the mess they were left with was to show restraint?
If people want the Conservatives to be soft on public spending, they ought to stop voting in incompetent Labour governments to leave them with no choice.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 3:24 pm
“a modern, left-of-centre political party”
Sounds like a good idea Tom… when can we have one?
By the way, to read the comments here, you would think that ‘wealth’ and ‘wealth creation’ are synonymous.
There are many wealthy people who create nothing and simply take a great deal of money out of the economy.
There’s also the issue of morality ( Blairites/ Thatcherites will find it between mendacious and moribund).
Can we really support a system where some dodgy East European oligarch pays less tax than their cleaner?
We know Mandy is ’supremely relaxed’ about that (he would be, wouldn’t he?) but I’m certainly not! Are you Tom?
P.S. I’m sure this will be your main campaigning issue when you’re on the stump in Glasgow South at the next election – NOT!
Monday 9 November 2009 at 4:48 pm
“More to the point, does anyone seriously believe that if the Tories instead of Labour had been in power since 1997, incomes equality would have been narrower than they are today? Without the minimum wage and tax credits it would surely have been even greater.”
you are in la la land!
you have forced wages down by printing visas like confetti and allowing hundreds of thousands of indian nationals into the country forcing brits out of work
you have made the education the underclass on the worst estates get even worse making a minimum wage as side issue as so many of them are totally unemployable
you wont stay in power
you are not represting the people the labour party was originally setup to represent, you have become a party for middle class wine bar trendys who work for the public sector
Monday 9 November 2009 at 5:00 pm
Tom
Why are there so many poor?
Largely because they are either unemployed or in low paid employment.
But the Government boast of creating over 2.5 Million new jobs since 1997. That is true.
Unfortunately about 1.75Million of
those jobs have been filled by – immigrants (Government statistics).
There is your answer: your own Government immigration policy. Designed so we are told to make Britain multi-cultural – and as a side effect make the poor poorer. (facts as released recently)
And you wonder why the BNP is doing well?
Monday 9 November 2009 at 5:11 pm
@Paul Williams
“…this sounds suspiciously like the post election battle for the soul of the Labour party has started early.”
It started years ago. Blairites versus the Left. The Left will lose the election and the Blairites will conduct an exorcism during the period in opposition.
What Party results is difficult to say.
As to the thread, well, if everyone’s better off, I don’t give a toss how much
Abramovich earns.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 5:46 pm
Hi Tom,
“I’m not aware of any evidence that low tax credit rates are responsible for low take-up of paid employment.”
Raising or expanding the coverage of working tax credit would be one way of making sure that more people are better off in work than on benefit.
Another way would be to introduce free childcare for working parents, which would remove one of the major barriers stopping people getting jobs and make a lot of middle and lower income families significantly better off.
There’s any number of excellent ways to use any money raised from the very highest earners. The alternative is to take more from the middle class and poor either in tax rises or service cuts, surely that’s much worse?
Monday 9 November 2009 at 5:49 pm
Amusing lies from the loon in S Africa as ever . .
Oh, and I Like our basic 20p Income tax rate, lowest in our lifetimes, and will be sorry when the 15% VAT rate goes back up to the Tory rate of 17.5%.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 6:14 pm
Great stuff by Iain Gill there.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 8:39 pm
Tom, is you majority big enough to withstand Harriet Harman?
Monday 9 November 2009 at 8:39 pm
The Tories in power have always been quite different from their promises on immigration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_immigration#Contemporary_immigration_.281983_onwards.29
In practice they have followed the economic imperatives of cheaper labour and more growth.
But they and their billionaires’ trolls do like to lie about it, especially when they live abroad . .
Monday 9 November 2009 at 8:43 pm
Roger Dodger Many Thanks
Sadly I dont think Tom or his kind “get it” at all
Monday 9 November 2009 at 9:32 pm
“put a great deal of effort into reinventing Labour as a low tax party”
As an APPARENTLY low tax party, you mean Tom. Our taxes are not low, but nor are they particularly high (we’re pretty much middle of the road really).
In fact, if you read the ONS Effect of Taxes and Benefits on household incomes, you see that we actually tax the bottom 10% more as a % of their gross income (earnings + benefits) than we do the top 10%, if you count all direct and indirect taxes.
If you like, there are a few ways to give the poorest more money. Lowering VAT (this affects the lower paid more than the top, as a %), lowering alcohol and tobacco duties, raising income tax thresholds, simply benefits to reduce or remove the punitive marginal rates faced by those stuck in the welfare trap.
There are a great many things you could do, but you won’t.. because that would require the great Clunking Fist admitting that his tax and benefits system doesn’t work to reduce inequality. What a waste of a golden decade.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 9:49 pm
Nice ideas Tom, but if Labour want their voters back, a few quid back in tax isn’t going to cut it.
Your colleagues seem to be ignoring what you have done to the daily lives of your erstwhile supporters.
Monday 9 November 2009 at 9:51 pm
‘…modern, left-of-centre political party….’ Love the satire.
Your ilk have been in political power for 12 years. Asking now is just extracting it.
You let it happen, you are responsible. Why ask the people you have ignored for 12 years? Oh yes an election coming up you expect to loose.
No that was not a vote for any political party before I am accused of being a Tory fan or a Lib-Dem hoper.
Why don’t you listen to the over 70% who dont vote for you , rather than those who do? Apparently our Democratic system means we are run by a support base of fewer than 70% of the population. UK Democracy is defunct.
You didn’t listen Tom because you didn’t care and now you may loose your cushty job you suddenly do. Whywere you not asking this question 12 years ago?
Monday 9 November 2009 at 10:08 pm
Ever since man was able to hunt or grow more food than was needed to survive, capitalism has been our most successful invention.
Capialism is not a zero sum game. Crudely there is not a fixed amount of money to be divided up between people, but due to science we have hitherto been able to invent machinery and optimise it, which compared to stone age man is astounding.
Without the entrepreneurs who can utilise the work of scientists we have the perfect environment for the betterment of man. However, we also need politicians to set the framework of justice, law and order to allow us all to flourish, against a minimum of corruption and to make sure the people who do not have the skills to compete are cared and catered for.
My conclusions are that invention and business should be given a higher pedestal to bestride. On blogs like this we should be left to argue over the details.
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 12:34 am
“The Rich” is a very tenuous construct. It applies to a tiny minority who become rich because of cultural anomalies as well as fiscal ones. It seems ok to demonize bankers, yet it is not ok to denigrate pop stars. It’s really just a handy scapegoat that acts as a red herring, (very handy for hate-filled Labour voters), a red herring that detracts from the real truth that the wealth of this nation is predicated upon the working classes – wage earners, people who actually produce something or offer a worthwhile service. These are not rich people, but it is these people who have been targeted during the last ten years in order to finance the New Labour odyssey and it is these people who have become the true scapegoats for revenge and retribution.
Not content to tax them, you have sanctioned the most intrusive programme of surveillance and harassment in Western Europe. You have sent people to jail for measuring apples in pounds and ounces. You have prosecuted them for wheelie bin crimes. You have taxed their income, taxed their petrol, taxed the duty on petrol and taxed the cars they drive to work in, in order to pay taxes.
You have introduced a raft of stealth taxes that attack, not “The Rich” but the genteel poor. Respectable people who would be ashamed to collect state benefits. You have presided over a failing education system, and have penalised them when they seek to bypass the draconian rules, so that their children are forced, either into sinking schools or into the independent sector, which, may you be reminded, the majority of the Labour front bench had the privilege of attending.
“The Rich” are irrelevant. They can take care of themselves. It’s the decent middle and working classes that this venomous administration has targeted.
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 12:35 am
Have you changed the permissions on your blog Tom? I nearly lost this post and the last one simply disappeared.
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 8:19 am
@Madasafish Monday 9 November 2009 at 5:00 pm
//
Why are there so many poor?
Largely because they are either unemployed or in low paid employment.
But the Government boast of creating over 2.5 Million new jobs since 1997. That is true.
Unfortunately about 1.75Million of
those jobs have been filled by – immigrants (Government statistics)
//
And MANY of these jobs are of course part-time; add to that, some 250,000 previously full time jobs are now part time, thanks to the idiot in charge.
QZ. Tax Credits. Have you ever tried applying for them? The notes pamphlet that comes with them has more pages than that of a tax return. Even when you get your figures right, they still get it wrong. 12 years on, they are sill overpaying c1.5 billion a year – that’s £18 Billion that could have been put to good use elsewhere.
My partner had her credits wrongly assessed; she’s self-employed, and the recession has hit her business badly – so what does she really need? A £1000 bill from HMRC because THEY cocked up her tax credits.
They have a function. They have helped single mums hugely, sure, but in reality, it is just a way of getting the taxpayer to subsidise industry to keep wages low. As has been the – now uncovered – criminal – nay, treasonous – mismanagement of immigration.
The removal of the 10p tax band has cost me £600 this year. That is around 10% of my disposable income.
Thanks Gordon. You really are DUMB
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 10:02 am
@Quietzapple “Oh, and I Like our basic 20p Income tax rate, lowest in our lifetimes,”
Wasn’t the 10p income tax rate the lowest in our lifetimes ? Didn’t Gordon Brown abolish it, promising that no-one would be worse off ? Wasn’t that was an outrageous lie ?
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 11:35 am
Another fudge to the employment books is to make mothers go out to work even if it costs them ALL their post tax income to pay for child care.
Worse for mother and child, but at least the taxman takes his cut.
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 12:29 pm
It is to do with relative wealth. The gap is between those in the lower wealth band today and those there say 50 or 100 years ago and is one to be celebrated.
When a society with a broad based wealth pyramid moves towards a diamond shape, it is inevitable that the apex will move away from the base. Some will never get off the ground.
If wealth in the upper band slows or stops, that means wealth creation has slowed or stopped.
What then would Socialist Labour redistribute to its welfare pets?
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 4:20 pm
[...] and poor is not to tax the rich (that’s the easy get out of jail card action), to pay more money to the [...]
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 5:14 pm
we dont need wealth redistribution we need radically better education for those on the worst estates and inner cities to allow those kids to grow up into wealth creators
it is pointless having much of our clever folk doomed to a life on an underclass estate because the schools are poor and simultaneously flooding the country with grads (from really poor quality colleges) in the 3rd world, this kills the normal incentives for employers to train our own workforce, allows poor employment practises, and is killing this countries IP lead which means we will become a 3rd world country in a few generations
this is not the way to do it
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 7:58 pm
@ Simon:
The 10 p rate was not the Basic rate, and was a temporary measure.
For all the whinges Chameleon made clear (HA!) to Osborne and the erst of us that the 50p rate will stay – for a while.
He hasn’t persuaded Lord laidlaw to return and coughup the £50m in back tax he would have to pay if he did return though.
Nor have I read of any commitment to making tax exiles like the billionaire Barclay Bros (Daily Telegraph) pay their whack.
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 8:42 pm
Without going into too many onerous details, it’s probably fair to say that the real effective rate of taxation in relation to gross wages is lower for, say the top 10% of earners than for the rest, and lower for the top 20% — the upper quintile — too. That suggests that the argument about the rich already bearing most of the burden is probably false.
However, isn’t a 50% marginal rate enough? Obviously, nobody loses exactly fifty percent of their wages, but it’s a fair old whack — as is forty over a much lower threshold.
Britain is going to have to drastically rebalance its budget as soon as this recession is over, and, unfortunately for the ideologues on left and right, it can neither be purely through tax hikes or purely through spending cuts. It’s going to have to be a mix of the two. But wouldn’t it be fairer to tax anti-social, damaging behaviour rather than wages? That way, the tax hikes would raise more money, and improve the nation’s well being. Increasing taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, chocolate bars, sugary soft drinks, and processed food containing over a certain proportion of salt would raise a fortune and save the NHS and Police even more, in the long run.
There are plenty more, but those items should be near the top of the list.
Tuesday 10 November 2009 at 9:27 pm
I’m afraid tom and most of the commentators have gotten a little confused. The ‘global’ financial crisis didn’t end this governments basking in the light of 10,000 bankers. It was the govt. policy, carried over from thatcher & Major to base the economy on borrowing from ever increasing house values. the bulk of Britlands consumer boom came from loans supported by inflated equity. The bankers knew this, the journalists knew this, the politicians knew this; so either they were all too stupid to realise the implications or they were cynically indifferent to the future chaos (knowing perhaps that they are immune to any financial hardship). Whatever the case its sufficient evidence to have them all booted out for life, preferably onto a grotty housing estate with means tested benefits for the rest of their lives.
Wednesday 11 November 2009 at 8:35 am
@Quietzapple “The 10 p rate was not the Basic rate, and was a temporary measure.”
Lol! it only became a “temporary measure” after it was abolished.
In the Labour Party’s 1997 manifesto, it was declared “Our long-term objective is a lower starting rate of income tax of ten pence in the pound. This goal willl benefit the many, not the few.”
No mention there that it was temporary.
Also, no mention when it was introduced in the 1999 budget speech, “This 10p rate will not start in April 2000, like other income tax chages, we are making today, it will be delivered a few weeks from today. People will see it in their pay packets in May”.
History tells us that Labour Party manifestos and their pledges are works of fiction that J K Rowling would be proud of, but surely if it really was temporary, someone would have mentioned that before it was abolished ? And if not, why not ?
Wednesday 11 November 2009 at 8:46 am
Murdoch adding threats to insults and injury:
http://www.slate.com/id/2235055/pagenum/all/
The BBC, which takes so much of its material from the organs of foreign and expat billionaires avoiding UK tax, to be made to pay for its filching?
Time to insist he and the Barclays et al take up residence here, pref in Nelson Mandela Buildings, E49.
Wednesday 11 November 2009 at 9:54 am
Simon:
‘@Quietzapple “The 10 p rate was not the Basic rate, and was a temporary measure.”
‘Lol! it only became a “temporary measure” after it was abolished. ‘
How come Gordon Brown didn’t describe it as the Standard rate of tax at the time?
Because it was not.
You dissemble Sirrah! And know full well that had it been so intended it would have been heralded as such.
Wednesday 11 November 2009 at 10:07 am
@Quietzapple, he described it as the “starting” rate of tax. He didn’t describe it as a temporary measure. If you have evidence to the contrary please paste the link.
And BTW, calling someone a sirrah, because they point out your mistakes doesn’t strengthen your arguement.
Wednesday 11 November 2009 at 11:32 am
No mistake Sirrah. Your tendentious dissemblance continues unabated.
He did not describe it, nor has ever done, as the Basic rate of Income Tax.
The “starting rate” would always be the lowest in effect at the time.
The Basic rate is basic.
Had Gordon Brown intended the 10p Rate as permanent he would have heralded it in those terms, and so would others, which they did not.
At the time it was clearly a transitional move, and so it has proved.
But fantasise your phantoms if you will, next tell us that this is not a free country & etc.
Best you go back to the usual mock tory troll position that Income Tax doesn’t matter, so many taxes & etc.
Toodley Pippitty!
Wednesday 11 November 2009 at 1:03 pm
@Quietzapple, “At the time it was clearly a transitional move, and so it has proved. ”
What exactly made it “clearly transitional” ?
You can’t change history, no matter how much you want to.
Wednesday 11 November 2009 at 6:52 pm
Au contraire, you are trying to do just that.
No evidence that 10p in the £ was the basic rate of tax, ergo when that rate was abolished so soon after it was introduced it was transitional.
If it was intended to be permanent someone would have said so, it would have been announced as the Basic Rate of Income Tax.
Wasn’t, was it?
You really must learn from when the dog does not bark, or you will need to call me in to interpret for you on a pretty regular basis, and I shall increase my fees . . .
Thursday 12 November 2009 at 11:51 am
@Quietzapple, you are arguing that black is white.
If the 10p tax rate was temporary it should have been stated either in the budget speech or in the detail that it was temporary. Otherwise it becomes a cruel joke on the lowest paid when you abolish it.
As it was, the backlash, the lies by Brown that no-one would be worse off, and the subsequent measures to recompense them, just go to show that this was something that wasn’t planned.
And your statement that it was clearly temporary only because abolished so quickly is just plain dumb.
Thursday 12 November 2009 at 6:59 pm
@Simon
You are still talking rubbish.
A Chancellor who reduced the standard rate of tax to 10 p would say so, trumpet it as such.
“I have reduced the Standard rate of Tax to 10P!” & etc.
A Chancellor who was planning changes in other state/individual/family transfers, such as the various tax credits would have other intentions in mind.
The succeeding Chancellor might then take a different view, or circumstances might alter what was best.
Obviously trolls such as yourself really resent the facts that Labour has reduced Income tax below anything others have managed.
And Tories always cfhattered that taxes on income are so wrong.
Do you truly imagine that a labour Chancellor would not have made rather more of what he intended as a permanent 10 p rate?
I do not believe you.
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