And another thing…

I’m certainly a Pro Eu Tory blogger, there’s no posts on it on the new blog yet, but soon enough…

With all due respect what is “toxic” about defending the sovereignty of the Parliament you sit in Sir?

It’s toxic because Tory divisions and perceived extremism on Europe was a major factor in turning people off your party in the 1990s. So Cameron tries to pretend his party is now moderate with regard to the EU. My point is that he represents only a minority in his party whereas you, Sir, represent the overwhelming majority.

Theres nothing extremist about wanting to leave the EU. Polls constantly show the about 50% of the public wanting to leave. Are half the population really extremists Tom, or is it the case that once again parliament has simply failed to represent people?

Perhaps matey Ken Clarke’s vulture capitalists (who are interested in a firesale of Royal Mail) and their ilk have bought them up, as Cashcroft (Political Acquisitions Inc) bought up that supposedly neutral blog a while back?

Online only the loudmouths who screeched abuse – much of it obscene – about Labpur politicians attract much attention.

Most right wing blogging has the sophistication of a teen oriented cartoon, even Daniel Hannan turned tail from decency a year or so ago, while Douglas Carswell remains almost sober in style.

Perhaps we should just face the fact that Churchill, Heath, Macmillan are dead.

What do you think the result would be if the British public were offered a poll on EU membership ?

I know its old fashioned, but I would like our elected representatives to reflect that view.

There’s one thing one can say about the Conservative view on Europe.

It’s totally in step with the view of the electorate, who, strangely, seem to want the trading group they voted for, not the political union they didn’t.

As far as limitless tons of CO2 is concerned, I think you’ll find that our contribution to the world’s global warming problem would amount to about half of one per cent in fifty years, if that.

It would be unfortunate if, in attempting to adjust this minuscule amount, we did anything which would result in handicapping our economy.

There aren’t any ‘cos most Tories want the UK, ‘out’ of the EU. They just don’t have the guts to come out and say it. Cameron’s Tory party is a lie from top to bottom, they are the same anti Europe, homophobic, racists, they always were.

A more important question; what’s happened to your previous post this morning, it’s mysteriously disappeared?

Paul – this is my first post of the day. But if you mean the one I removed last night, I decided that while comparing the SNP’s David Kerr to Robbie Rotten out of Lazy Town was funny, it was probably unfair to kick a guy after he had been so humiliated at the polls. So I removed it.

I donn’t see how trying to defend an independant self-governing UK is immoderate.

In my case, the pro vs anti ‘discussion’ in the Tory party during Major’s premiership was encouraging rather than the opposite.

A party that looks clarke-like, at least on the EU issue will turn me away.

Alas poor Britain, caught between a totally discredited New Labour and the increasingly loony right “better off out”, “AGW is a left wing hoax” of the Tories. Some years ago I decided to vote against whoever was currently in power. Politics really has become the last refuge of the scoundrel, to paraphrase the good doctor.

Well done Tom for answering a question that Tory Bear did not ask!

Don’t you find that the people who are most vocal are the people who want change? Few people shout about maintaining the status quo (Rick and Francis excepted).

So, those who want the Tories to be more Eurosceptic have lots to talk about, and those who like the current approach remain silent.

Most ‘Torys’ are not indoctrinated to believe the communist EU Dictatorship is actually a ‘good thing’, and most or at least a lot of Conservative MP’s are not traitors who are in the pocket of the EU.

Labour OUT June 09, and out B I G !

June 09, wishful thinking.

June 10!.

There are no Conservatives pro-EU blogs, because Conservatives, being sensible people, are not( with the exception of a few members of the old and reducing guard) Europhiliac. That is a position they share with the overwhelming majority of the English (if not British) people. That is not to say thet they are anti-EU any more than they are anti-Brazilian, anti-American, or anti-Maltese. Unlike the Labour and Liberal democrat parties, they are simply pro Britain (or, in default of that, England) retaining the maximum possible control over its own affairs. Long may that continue.

No electoral points to be scored here Tom. The more people who believe Cameron is secretly Eurosceptic the more votes he will get.

Frankly anyone who believes a word this Government says on anything – including climate change – is deluded. They lie all the time.

See the current government advert for driving 5 miles a week less.
“The TV advert – due to be aired from Saturday 7th November – highlights that by driving five miles less a week, any driver can help make a difference.

Developed as part of the cross-Government ACT ON CO2 campaign, the advert aims to raise awareness of the impact of car travel on CO2 emissions and ways in which drivers can play their part in reducing this.

Car travel is the single biggest source of household and individual CO2 emissions in the UK. If all UK drivers reduced their driving by 5 miles a week we could save 2.7 million tonnes of CO2 per year.”

But “In the UK, 27% of carbon emmissions are generated by our homes so any efficiency improvements you make will have a positive and lasting impact on reducing this figure.”
http://www.energysavingadvice.co.uk/energy-saving-tips/benefits-of-saving-energy-at-home.php

National Statistics on 2007 CO2 emsissions state:
“Total carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in 2007 were 542.6 million tonnes, a
decrease of nearly 2 per cent from 2006 (551.1 million tonnes). Ninety per cent
of this total was accounted for by three sectors; business, transport and
residential, which represented 35 per cent, 28 per cent and 26 per cent of the
total respectively. The largest decreases were in emissions from the agriculture,
public and residential sectors (5, 5 and 4 per cent respectively). There was an
increase of nearly 9 per cent in emissions from industrial processes.”

So I stand by my claim anyone beleieving what teh Government says on climate change is deluded..

The EU does indeed have benefits, but the costs vastly outweigh them. What’s more, the benefits can be achieved without being full members of the EU.

IT’S ALREADY a well-established fact that there are no Tory bloggers who accept the scientiic consensus on climate change.

Should there be any? Iain Dale today reports a Times poll that says:

A poll for The Times shows that only 41% of people accept that global warming is taking place and is largely man-made. Thirty two per cent believe the link is not yet proved. Eight per cent say it is environmentalist propaganda and 15% say that the world is not warming.

So Tory bloggers are obviously in line with the vast majority of the eminently sensible British people, most of whom no more believe in the dangers of CO2 in the atmosphere than they do in the supposed health threat from ‘passive smoking’ – these being all the same species of environmental moonbattery.

Phew! Well done, Frank! For a minute there I thought you were goig to write a whole comment without once mentioning smoking, but you managed to pull it back at the end…

Madasafish lies habitually, anyone who reads it is wasting their time.

He lives in South Africa, pity he doesn’t confine himself to his own government.

If there are any pro-EU Tory bloggers out they, they are either over 60 years old or they haven’t quite “found themselves” yet

Where are the Eurosceptic Labour blogs?

As 38% of those recently polled, in the face of the Billionaires’ media and Tory campaigns against the Lisbon Treaty, think being in the EU “is a bad thing” some of the claims above are ridiculously untrue.

What a novelty!

http://www.yougov.co.uk/extranets/ygarchives/content/pdf/DT%20Europe_27-Aug-2009.pdf

Chameleon will have to have an In or Out Referendum if he wins the General Election or die from a thousand sceptic barbs, but dare not say so because saying Vote for Me and I’ll let you tell me what to do is the sort of thing which led to Heath losing his “Who Governs?” 1974 election.

It should not escape the attention of the Sceptics that the 38% are pretty unlikely to all be in favour of withdrawal, and that a pro UK in EU campaign would be very likely to pick up support, especially as Chameleon wants to undermine employment rights and other desirable social goals by ahis imaginary “renegotiation.”

ROFLMAO If Merkel and Sarcozy et al turned up for a chat I doubt anyone would even ask Chameleon how many sugars he wanted in his coffee, let alone which bits of a done deal he would be permitted to duck out of.

The Polish nazi Remembrance group and his homophobic partners, and the other freaks he chose might help out of course . .

“Tory strategists are no doubt aware, and are concerned by the fact, that no anti-EU party has ever won a UK general election.”

This is rather spurious reasoning. Polls show that most people are against the EU. A recent BBC poll even returned a majority in favour of leaving (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/7949104.stm)! So being pro-EU isn’t moderate or popular. The reason this doesn’t turn into electoral success for UKIP &c, other than at EU elections, where they get more votes than Labour, is that most people do not care about the EU.

If you combine disinterest among the public with the in-fighting it generates in the Tories, you have a damaging combination. People aren’t attracted to a party that’s tearing itself apart over something they don’t care about.

This is not, of course, an historically Tories-only problem. Labour were famously split on the EU until quite recently, with some of Callaghan’s ministers campaigning against their own government in the ‘75 referendum. But since the Eurosceptics got sent to the re-education camps for the stazi to beat some loyalty back into them (or whatever it is you chaps do), only the Tories are left with a divided membership on this issue.

I think that’s entirely different, though, from a homogenous anti-EU party being unviable. If anything the evidence indicates it would be more popular. So a more interesting question than yours, I think, in light of the fact that the younger generation and the bloggers are increasingly libertarian and anti-EU is: do people like Ken Clarke have any future in the party? And if not, why are they still here?

Hi Tom

As a member of that rare (but I hope protected species) a Tory Europhile I think the issue of the EU is a bit more complex in the Tory Party.There is no doubt people like Ken Clarke who love the EU and are excited about it are very few and far between.There are though a lot of Tories who think (bit like most in the Country) who wish the EU in its present form didn’t exist but will grumblingly accept to stay in on the basis of “better the devil you know”. Then there are the real obssesives such as Hannan Carswell Cash and Fraser Nelson who just want out because they truly believe the EU is evil.Very difficult to know how big a proportion of the Tory Party the latter is but I guess it might equate to the Old Labour proportion on your Side.Without doubt though its the latter who make the most noise on the blogs. I have not a shadow of doubt that Cameron is in the “better the devil we know camp” and I am truly glad he is. One thing though that unites Europhiles like me and the phobes like Hannan is the fact that the referendum Labour promised us should have taken place (and I don’t buy its not the constitution argument). I think Cameron made the right chopice about not having a post ratification Lisbon referendum – he never said he would, but sometime further down the road the only way this is going to be settled is if the nation is given a chance to say whether we should stay In or have a different relationship with the EU.

Quietzapple

Madasafish does NOT live in South Africa.

He lives in the UK.

Pity the rest of your posts are not as factual

Mr Harris,

Could it be that there are no ‘pro-EU’ Conservative blogs because the discerning blog authors have a greater understanding of what constitutes conservative political philosophy than that presently possessed by the leadership of the political party?

As Scruton observes: ‘Conservatism is a stance that may be defined without identifying it with the policies of any party.’ Peel’s Tamworth Manifesto of 1834 was an appeal to ‘that great and intelligent class of society…which is far less interested in the contentions of party, than in the maintenance of order and the cause of good government’.

Could it simply be that conservatives (as opposed to Conservatives) grasp and believe that social order is best maintained and good government is best manifest in, through and by the sovereignty of the nation state, and not through any over-arching, inefficient, unaccountable supra-national entity?

H Wislon’s Ministers (not Callaghgan’s) didn’t campaign against their government.

Wilson put forward two fairly opposing options for the public to choose between, and permitted Ministers to campaign on either side or not at all.

Later in 1983 Labour campaigned for withdrawal and lost in its worst General Election since my parents were born.

The YouGov poll I referred to above is pretty detailed, and was commissioned by the Dully Tele.

http://www.yougov.co.uk/extranets/ygarchives/content/pdf/DT%20Europe_27-Aug-2009.pdf

Aspects of the whole business are nonsense of course:

Those who want to abrogate Maastricht may as well offer punters a ride to Heaven while Nightingales sing, for all the practical use their extra “options” bring.

In or Out as it is, Take it or Leave it.

More Madasafish porkies . . orrr . .

Nooo, he’s Back . . eugh

(He has repeatedly denied living here, claiming that the UK is not habitable, largely because of immigrants and Labour Government)

Phew! Well done, Frank!

No sweat, Tom. You can always count on me to deliver that final blast of pungent tobacco smoke.

To answer Guido, my blog has consistently opposed the undemocratic capitalist club called the European super state (mostly signed up to by the Tories for this country), and banged on endlessly about the continued betrayal by successive Labour and Tory governments in not giving us a referendum.

Oh, and Tom, down here we call pro-Euro Tories… the Lib Dems.

A few points and questions Tom.

1) You’re right, most Tories want out of the federal superstate that Europe is rapidly becoming. I must point out though that recent polls show the majority of the public actually agree we should have looser ties with Europe. So it’s hardly surprising Cameron is taking a Eusceptic view, hardly unreasonable. Do you honestly believe it will hurt him at the election?

2) Do you actually believe Cameron will do anything to significantly distance us from Europe?

3) I think you’re completely mistaken if you think splits on Europe contributed significantly to the loss in ‘97. Do you have any evidence to back up that view? (IMO the loss was simply down to a tired government, lets face it most of us expected Major to lose the election before that thanks to their unpopularity after the whole poll tax thing etc) And Major was hardly an inspiring PM was he? (though with hindsight now I suspect a lot more would have voted for him in 97!)

4) Recent polls show most of the UK public actually disbelieve MMGW. (Thankfully, I was beginning to despair of my countrymen). Cameron is far less likely to stuff up our economy making platitudes to the greens than the incumbent. Are you saying that’s a bad thing? (Actually he’s just far less likely to stuff up our economy full stop.)

The EU signifies everything I detest and loathe in Labour. It’s a left wing, socialist, mainly unelected, unaccountable, dictatorship!

You will not find many pro-EU Tories blogs. Tories happen to believe in democracy! I don’t know what has happened to “Dave”….

I love Europe, hate the EU!

Tom

Saw Dan on the box(CHANNEL 4 NEWS) the other day he looked a lot like this

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii266/pipio96/MadMan.jpg

I’m very Labour and very much against the weirdly 1950’s Schumanesque political union with Europe.

I just haven’t got a blog.

Who cares where the pro-Tory bloggers are? Blogging is, in the main, only about being against things, present company and mine, of course, excluded.

Oh, and this one from some ‘gay Democrat Chicagoans’ who realise NOW that they were wrong about Bush. Wonder what drove them to that conclusion?!

http://hillbuzz.org/2009/11/10/thank-you-former-president-george-w-bush-and-former-first-lady-laura-bush/

I know this has nothing to do with the Tories & the EU, but it’s worth a read if only to show that there are people out there who recognise the good in politicians and not just the bad.

Who knows – we might even find we have one or two bloggers like that here in Britain one day.

Can you imagine?

“We are sorry Mr Blair, we got you all wrong. You were the answer not the problem.”

No, me neither.

Anyway, Mr Blair doesn’t care. He’s busy challenging those nasty European-foreign-type people.

http://keeptonyblairforpm.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/eu-candidate-blair-throws-down-anti-protectionist-gauntlet-to-fellow-europeans/

Tom@ “…there are no Tory bloggers who accept the scientific consensus on climate change.”

That’s rich coming from a Labour MP whose government has just rejected Prof. Nutt’s scientifically proven facts for some moral reason. Whose Minister for Women is actively trying to stop the flood of prostitutes coming for the Olympics based on fake evidence on how many prostitutes were shipped in for the World Cup in Germany. Who went to war in Iraq based on fake facts. Who pass masses of legislation based on fake evidence or single examples.

On a broader note, has anyone else noticed that the UK, under New Labour, has become a theocracy?

We have legislation based on morality rather than harm. We have thought crimes. We have regulated free speech. We have banned criticism of religion. We have laws saying what two consenting adults can do in the bedroom, and we have separate laws so that even if the act itself is legal taking a picture of it isn’t. We have laws that put you on the sex offenders register if you have a cartoon. We have laws that make writing about sex in certain ways illegal.

People have said that we have ‘policy based evidence’, while that’s true I also think we have ‘morality based policy’ which comes first.

How dare our ‘representatives’ tell us what we can and cannot read, what we can and cannot do in the privacy of our own homes, with people we love and who are willing participants.

I am regularly vilified on Conservative Home (usually by members of UKIP rather than Conservatives, it has to be said!) for being a Tory of the “In Europe But Not Run By Europe” school of thought – a slogan which has served us well.
I am not the unqualified Europhile that the trolls paint me as, and can certainly see that the EU is in need of reform – but I do believe that Conservatives need to remain within in order to fight for reform from the inside.

Correction:

Sorry I meant to say ‘pro-EU’ Tory bloggers.

I expect the sharp-eyed among you realised that!

On the Eu front, Tom, why not stop complaining about the tory lack of public infighting and tell us why the EU full membership is a good thing.

The economic benefits of a free trade area are not at risk by not signing up to the Lisbon treaty, so why not challenge the media billionaires by putting forth a decent case for EU membership?

I remember a couple of cases that the UK got massively wrong and justice was only served by going to the European Court of Human Rights. Make these points, give examples. Sniping at the tories when they at least make some valid criticisms of the EU (and some not so valid!) simply makes you look like a petulant child.

If the Cameroon offered an in/out ref in his manifesto for the next charade election he would decimate the vote for Liebour ,the limp-dems, UKIP and win a decisive majority for his shoddy party.
He seems to prefer the chance of a hung Parliament. still so long as he gets the keys to NO 10 that is the name of the game for him. Stuff the Tory party and stuff the country.

Shocking isn’t it? A party where not everyone agrees?

I think it used to be called “democracy”, Tom.

Healthy I would say. Unlike the eternally “on message” Labour crap

Tom – in that we, the humble citizen, have no say whatsoever in the direction of the EU, may this humble citizen humbly suggest to you that the EU is no less than a tyranny?

Cue silly answer…

@Madasafish Saturday 14 November 2009 at
1:58 pm
//
Quietzapple
//

Madasafish.

Don’t bother with QZ; He is always right, and when you prove him wrong, he ignores you.

Worst of all is his pomposity.

And his “meaningful” ellipses…

As Guido says, “Where are the Eurosceptic Labour blogs?”

You know, sometimes millions of people can see the danger in something, while countless others wander blindly in.

What’s really going on here? Why do some still believe that the EU is our friend, while others realise the dangers and potential horrors of being part of an empire that consists of similar institutions to those Hitler devised for his version of the same thing?

But BlairSupporter, you’re as monomaniacal as the anti EU (anti almost everything to be truthful) bloggers/posters . . .

They say you backed TB 2B i/c BB . . . .

Paul, you know very well HMG haven’t rejected any facts.

You also know that even Nutt in propaganda mode didn’t say that cannabis is harmless, or should be promoted, as he actually did promote it by his foolish analogies.

Funnily enough anyone who has studied any science in a serious way knows that facts are not presented in ways which invoke headlines.

Let’s see if Chameleon changes his mind and gets round to saying, Yes, he would have a Referendum, because otherwise he fears he will lose.

I have yet to meet anyone who is not locked up who is pro Europe.

If it does not have the will of the people it will never work in the long term. All you can say about Tory policy is that it is less pro Europe than Labour and the Libers.

Sorry, Bob Piper is excused on this occasion.

On climate change, anyone who can read the signs of the times realises that, whatever the science may be revealing, it is being used as an excuse to tax and fine western countries and so a global government has to be set up.

Watch Copenhagen very closely.

Plodder:

I was rubbishing Madasafish’s “material” several years back.

You obviously didn’t bother reading any of his tosh or you would have realised that.

QZ. Why monomania re the EU. It is, after all, a single issue matter. Your use of the noun in such a context is utterly meaningless, apart from the smear implied.

Where are the Labour Blogs which admit that the LisbonConTreaty was basically the same as the EU Constitution which was rejected by France and The Netherlands?

Where are the Labour Blogs which admit that the Labour Government gave a Manifesto commitment to hold a Referendum on the Constitution to avoid a debate during the last General Election, and then blatently broke it because it knew the electorate would vote NO.

Where are the Labour blogs supporting the overwhelming view of the Eurosceptic electorate: that we joined a Common Market, not a Political Union, and we want to return to just a Trading Union?

It is the Labour Party and Labour Bloggers who are arrogant and ignores the wishes of the electorate. The Conservatives and particularly Tory Bloggers are more in tune with them.

Ahah! I remember, QZ – you accused me of monomania re Nutt & drugs legislation.

Is it a new word you have just learnt?

Oh Tom, what a very silly MP you pretend to be. Of course there are no pro-Eu Tory blogs, because quite frankly we are a euro sceptic party, and quite happy to stay that way. D.C. has delivered an excellent set of policy direction that are designed to keep both Bin and Boo playing happily together in the Conservative sand box. More we are now a united party, able and willing to take direction from the Top of the party and more than willing to put old foolish distractions behind us. So now we can concentrate on the important, even vital job of putting your MP’s in the very long unemployment que, snaking up every high street in this poor misruled nation. Poor Tom , had you hoped we would implode? No chance we are not going to make that mistake again in a hurry. Me? I’m BinBoo prepared to be in Europe but ready to get out if the EEC starts to become psychotic. Will that happen? not as long as the democratic process is allowed to function in a proper fashion. Seems Lisbon was not our Achilles heal after all. Worked out what to do next Tom? Europe calls !

As I understand it ‘Europhiles’ among Nulabour MPS at Westminster fall into three groups.

1. Pretend-lefties who didn’t like George Bush and see ‘Europe’ as a bulwark against The Evil Empire.

2. Pretrendy-lefties who holiday in Chiantishire and see Europe as some kind of nirvana where cheap wine, fancy cheese, and extra-virgin olive oil fall from the skies like manna.

3. ‘Loyal’ Labour MPs (ie lobby-fodder) who do as they’re told by the big nasty beery-breathed whips.

I mean it really is beyond me why a country such as ours would want to cede control to the socialist/sclerotic relic that is Europe.

I await to be enlightened.

NB telling me how handy it would be to be able to go on holiday without having to change money will not really enlighten me.

Quite a laughable post, Mr Harris. Perhaps, if you are kicked out at the next general election, you should consider a career in stand-up comedy. Your line “pro-EU Tory bloggers” was absolutely hilarious. And let’s face it, Nick Clegg himself can give you enough comedy material for a show of several hours length.

Let’s remind ourselves of Labour’s past, shall we? It used to be Labour that was against the EU. Tony Blair, your previous leader, was elected in Sedgefield on an anti-EU ticket. He told the electorate he thought we should leave the EU. Did he change his mind over the years, or was he just lying through his nauseatingly white teeth?

It might also be worth letting readers know that this week, auditors refused to endorse large swathes of the EU’s budget for the 15th year in a row. Far from wondering where the pro-EU bloggers are, I just wonder how mad someone has to be to support such a corrupt institution.

[...] reason there aren’t many Pro-Eu Tory blogs Tom? Because frankly, they don’t know anything about it, The newspapers rarely reports on the [...]

“Let’s remind ourselves of Labour’s past, shall we? It used to be Labour that was against the EU. Tony Blair, your previous leader, was elected in Sedgefield on an anti-EU ticket. He told the electorate he thought we should leave the EU. Did he change his mind over the years, or was he just lying through his nauseatingly white teeth?”

Such a good point, that its worth repeating. Seems the truth will out in the end as they say. Now isn’t it time for all the eu-sceptic and Labour-sceptic voters were given their overdue chance to express their anger at the misleading, and misrule of the Labour party. When is Gordon Brown, admittedly one of the few truly good men on the labour side, going to concede that time is indeed up for the Nu-Labour party. It is now time to go to the people. There will be a clear choice between a battle worn and frankly clapped out Nu-Labour party, and a fresh and determined Conservative party, with a new decent and rational leader. I look forward to the general election. Tom can you honestly say you do?

I don’t see an Anti EU federalist Labour Blogs either….

A pity there are not more Labour MP’s like Austin Mitchell MP. See his You Tube video and the strong case he puts forward for leaving the EU…

“The Euro-Realism of the left with Austin Mitchell MP”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQgFNtpSU34

I gather Lord Ashcroft intends to stop running the Tory party next June. He hypothecated most of his £ms of contributions, because he didn’t believe they could spend the money sensibly.

Perhaps he will be getting round to proving that he pays tax in the UK, lives here and so can be Lord Ashcroft and donate to the Tory party then?

Or is he worried that the New Labour Government will change the law so foreigners can no longer try and run Britain?

Poor Wm hague asked him if he complied with the rules regarding his involvement with their party.

Hague said he “imagines” that the answer means he is.

Amusing.

Here we have the swivel-eyed (so we hear) Dan Hannan, very articulate on why we have no need of the EU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkSIerYCXOA&feature=player_embedded

And here’s some old feller from way back on why socialism cannot work

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for,that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”

~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931

Spot on, the pair of them

Tom, is Norway ‘isolated’?

@Sammy

Brilliant stuff Sir.

Well I for one do not see what is toxic about supporting democratic nation states and the concept of a free trade bloc of them living together side by side in NATO guaranteed peace rather than an undemocratic, illiberal supranational quango-nation. To say that no party has won an election on a platform of EU withdrawl is the worst kind of statistic twisting, as only one major party has ever stood on such a platform. – Labour in 1983 – and they lost for many reasons.

I personally think the reason there are so few pro-EU Tory blogs is that because if you are sensible enough to be both a Tory and able to operate a computer then you are intelligent enough to realise that any benefit we gain from the EU – and there are some – can be gained in greater quantity, with other benefits, and with less expense, in other ways. Basically we’ve heard of Switzerland and Norway.

As for climate change, we’ve heard of the ice age also. Been a lot of global warming since then, and you can’t blame it all on 4×4s!

‘Basically we’ve heard of Switzerland and Norway. ‘

We have actually, those silly swine with no say on what they sign up for.

“I personally think the reason there are so few pro-EU Tory blogs is that because if you are sensible enough to be both a Tory and able to operate a computer then you are intelligent enough to realise that any benefit we gain from the EU – and there are some – can be gained in greater quantity, with other benefits, and with less expense, in other ways. ” – David T Breaker

Ken Clarke, who has been schmoozing vulture capitalists interested in a firesale of Royal Mail, might disagree, likewise the noble Lord Heseltine, both of whom have player rather larger roles, requiring a degree of intelligence, than Capt Sensible above.

In 1931 Keynes’ work was scarcely known, so Adrian Rogers had an excuse for his ignorance . . .

Don’t keep stirring things up please, I’m too big for Holyrood.
(And please don’t mention dual mandates.)

If, as you say, the EU is such a brilliant idea there is one very simple question you might like to answer. Why didn’t Gordon explain all the benefits that would flow from an ever tighter union and give us all chance to vote on it and provide him with a true mandate for him to sign the Treaty?

Oh yes, that’s right. Gordon doesnt believe in elections where he can’t bully the voters in advance. Leadership challenge, anyone?

Roger Dodger
Saturday 14 November 2009 at 10:36 pm
@Sammy
Brilliant stuff Sir.
***************************************

Why thank you sir.

John, perhaps you would like to ask your question of Mr Heath’s ghost, Mrs Thatcher and Mr Major, all of whom played rather larger roles in the Treaty of Rome and of Maastricht?

Harold Wislon, who arranged our referendum has passed over also.

Of course you don’t support the majority (70%) who want a say via a referendum on Europe. You’re Labour and Labour don’t do democracy… or civil liberties… or the economy… or education… or anything else of use really.

Tom, I completely agree with you. I know from my experience in the European Parliament that not all Tories are anti-EU. Interestingly, the few Tories in the 2005-09 Euro Parliament who were pro-Europe all either stood down or were deselected before the 2009 European Parliament elections.

Why do the Liar Party and the Lib Dems hate our country so much

When will any of you ever have the balls to tell the electorate the truth instead of lying to them about how great you want to make Britain while you balkanise it and destroy its sovereignty.

They only vote for you because you welfare bribe them and lie to them.

How could any person who believes in democracy say anything positive about European government?

I’m not anti Europe – I’m anti being treated like a total ladies-front-bottom.

Mr. Harris,

You may be interested to know that I’m a Tory blogger who accepts climate change is largely man-made.

You can read my views on it here: http://www.paleblueview.wordpress.com

Many thanks,

PBV