And another thing…

I was about to post on this very issue. Thank goodness someone is talking some sense! Saved me some work, too…

Why would Anyone take the Dully Maul seriously when it prattles about liberty?

Looks like you are right Tom, that there is a strong case for extradition, and, of course, not all of the USA’s justice system is concerned with executing simple minded blacks in Texas.

I agree about computer hacking in general, it is a scandal that those who supply Guido Fakes and the Dully Tele with hacked info are not prosecuted.

Does anyone reckon that any Labour MP or pro Labour source caught hacking Lord Ashcroft’s computers at Tory HQ would be left to go their own sweet way?

All good points (though I feel the UK courts don’t seem to have given enough thought to whether his severe learning difficulties makeshim fully culpable for his actions), but you’re failing to address the treaty he’s being extradited under.

The treaty Labour (badly) negotiated with the US is completely unfair and totally asymmetrical. It allows UK citizens to be extradited to the US with a far lower of burden of proof and on a far wider range of offences than in the opposite direction.

Suffice to say, were the situation reversed, the US would not extradite somebody to the UK for the same crime, because the treaty does not provide for it.

I can’t see how it’s right or proper to extradite somebody with severe learning difficulties when the US would not do the same under the same circumstances.

Lots in here which frankly is subjective.

However, let us look at wider point.

“MYTH #4: The extradition treaty with the US is one-sided.

There is some truth in this,but because of the role of the US constitution, not the UK legislation itself.”

I know the reason but don’t care. It’s a one-sided treaty, tear the thing up if the other side refuse to adhere to it.

What’s so difficult to understand ?

Ah yes, the real proof that Britain has a compassionate legal system.

Happy to allow a mass murderer to be released on “compassionate” grounds yet overjoyed to send a mentally disturbed man to, as his medical report states, “almost inevitable suicide”.

But then driving mentally disturbed people to suicide is a speciality of this administration isn’t it? Anyone remember Dr Kelly?

Very good point…In fairness I hadn’t looked that far into it the case. I should have.
I do think the US have unfair extradition powers…negotiated by Blair.
Still not 100% convinced re: fair trial.
Any Country who condones Capital punishment & allows people to be held without charge for so long…isn’t a Country I’d like to be tried in.

It has been alleged that he left that message. I don’t think he has admitted leaving anything. Even if he had I think aspergers could have something to do with the admission. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to prejudice his case just to justify Alan Johnson’s pusillanimous inaction.

Sonofmuff –

However, if people agree the treaty is unfair then he shouldn’t have been handed over.

Before the Blair treaty, the US government would have had to apply for his extradition and supplied evidence which would have been looked at by a UK court.

Now we have someone removed from the country with our Home secretary saying he has no powers to intervene even if he wished to.

Which way sounds fairer ? If he’s guilty can’t see why the evidence can’t be presented in the UK.

“Myth” #3 -

If someone with severe Aspergers committed murder, then they’d could feasibly have diminished responsibility based on them not having the capacity to understand what they did.

So no. People with Asperger’s should not automatically be extradited, no matter what the crime.

Even so, it’s a straw man argument. “Gary did x, but if he’d done y wouldn’t we extradite him?”. He didn’t do y. He did x.

Your response to myth #5 is a bit of a stretch. His fair trial here has simply consisted of our courts checking whether the extradition treaty applies.

Generally, though, I agree. I suppose as the press detected public sympathy for those Enron/Natwest fraudsters, they thought it was worth running the same line for MacKinnon.

My ex brother in law has Aspergers. I wouldn’t let him in the house. He used to have to sit in the car for 4 hours.

Hope this helps

Re the US Constitution

I understand their rules and why the US could not lower their standard –

but I’m unclear why we did not raise our standard to match their’s.

My understanding is that the problem cannot be rectified merely by amending the Extradition Act as we have a treaty and hence, obligations under that treaty in international law.

As for the US having a fair system. About that….I hope Gary’s got a large fighting fund. My understanding is that fairness received often depends on quality of lawyer and funds to afford the same.

The evidence against him is arguable – the point is – for me at any rate, is this Government’s locked us into an unsatisfactory treaty.

Sean O’Hare: the message he is alleged to have left was certainly in keeping with what Jon Ronson says – from his series of interviews with McKinnon – in this report, which says his practice was to leave:

a political diatribe on an instant message wordpad that would suddenly pop up on various Pentagon screens.

You also say, “Even if he had [admitted to leaving the message] I think aspergers could have something to do with the admission.” In other words, whatever comes out to damn McKinnon, even from his own mouth, can be explained away?

Let’s not forget that his Asperger’s is apparently so mild that he had never been diagnosed with it for 42 years until August 2008 when his lawyers sent him to see a specialist who provided the diagnosis. I have no doubt about the integrity of that expert, or the accuracy of the diagnosis, but we can be forgiven for remembering less edifying cases such as Ernest Saunders and his diagnosis of dementia which he subsequently, miraculously, recovered from.

I have no desire to see McKinnon rot in jail – not that that would have happened anyway, as he was offered 18 months to 3 years as a plea bargain, but turned it down (again from Jon Ronson’s sympathetic report) – but I think the general tenor of the Twitterati on this one is a bit unbalanced.

@Quietzapple …it is a scandal that those who supply Guido Fakes and the Dully Tele with hacked info are not prosecuted.

It’s not a scandal at all, they weren’t prosecuted because they have a strong public interest defense, unless of course you think that the issue of MPs ripping off the taxpayer is not in the public interest?

Clearly what Gary McKinnon allegedly did wasn’t in the public interest and so he’s being prosecuted.

I bet Clive Ponting is glad Quietzapple wasn’t on the jury when he was acquitted, actually on second thoughts given that Thatcher was PM at the time maybe not

The one sided extradition treaty is key. The US constitution protects its citizens from other peoples legal systems in a way that ours, quite shamefully, does not. Extraditions to the US should take place on exactly the same basis as extraditions from the US. How many IRA fugitives and fundraisers did we succeed in extraditing?

And yes. All extraditions to the US should stop until full reciprocity is established. If Mackinnon was any sort of present danger he could be tried here.

Will he get a fair trial in the US? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I would be more inclined to believe this if the US had to establish a prima facie case before an English court.

Is that US punishment system harsher than ours. It certainly appears so, both in terms of sentences and the regimes under which they are served. Perhaps we should seek the opinion of Mr Al Megrahi (yes I know its Scotland – possibly Mr Mckinnon would be wise to go home).

3 to 4 years Tom could do that standing on me head….you ever been in nick Tom Uh! no didn’t think so you should try it some time after all whats say 12 months out of your life?

People with Asperger’s are not treated very kindly in Prison they are the type to be on a permanent suicide watch(in the U.K.)

MYTH #1: Computer hacking is not a serious crime.
This isn’t a myth, it’s true. A well-defended computer system, that you’d imagine NASA, the NSA and various US government departments would have had from day one never mind after 9/11, is virtually impenetratable and the worst any hacker can do is to deny access to other external users using a DDOS.

A hacker does not harm people physically. A hacker, when discovered, shows holes in a security system that can then be patched before a more malicious person gets on – unless the original hacker IS the malicious person.

Either way MacKinnon did no more than stumble upon a bunch of open doors on a US address and have a nosy around.

Tom, I do love your assumption of guilt. Nice to know it’s not just Quietzapple on this site that sees the presumption of innocence as a bad thing.

And if you freely admit there is a one-sided extradition treaty then it is not a myth. Whether it’s due to the US constitution or the colour of Blair’s shoes is irrelevant, one sided is one-sided.

‘Myths’ 3 and 4 use sophistic reasoning: principles appropriate for heinous crimes are not necessarily so for less serious ones. People who commit genocide should be pursued to the grave, but not people who have shoplifted. You may as well say that because one’s lover betraying one with one’s friend is not an excuse for murdering both of them, it’s not an excuse for having got horribly drunk and screamed abuse at them in the street.
McKennon has clearly committed a crime that should be dealt with by the law. He is equally clearly a very disturbed and confused person who deserves our compassion.

I am being anon on this for reasons that should be obvious.

I am working on the assumption that Gary McKinnon has been correctly diagnosed as Aperger’s.

I worked in a secure unit, dedicated to Asperger’s adults. These people had to be supervised personally around the clock. Some had murdered people, or taken hostages or done some very crazy stuff.

The single most striking thing about the inmates was how apparently lucid and normal they could appear. You have to understand how un-mental they mostly act. (People who work in this rarely have time for political correctness – they deal in reality) On the day I left the unit, I said my goodbyes to a man in late middle age who had such a dry sense of humour, and who I got on quite well with. This man was never going to live in the outside world because of his crimes. He offered me his hand and wished me well. And he meant it. It was a moment of great emotion from someone who was capable of killing me just because I was in the way.

Occasionally people “escaped”. (Some were allowed limited freedom outside) Sadly, those that did reverted to type and demonstrated why they were locked up in the first place.

I can easily imagine you meeting Gary Mckinnon and believing that he is a wicked man who deserves what he gets. That is because he will encourage you in the belief that he is normal. It’s what they do.

So, if Gary really does have Asperger’s, he should be treated with compassion and understanding and placed in a specialist facility.

Quietzapple: “I agree about computer hacking in general, it is a scandal that those who supply Guido Fakes and the Dully Tele with hacked info are not prosecuted.”

As already mentioned there is a massive defence if prosecution was tried. Secondly, what’s Guido got to do with it? Thirdly, the information came out not because of hacking but by employee who made a copy on a disc.

With politicians like Tom in power, I don’t see why we need judicial processes at all. He has clearly decided the facts in this case already, and predicts the outcome.

I hope he’ll be so forthright when calls are made for his chums to be extradited to the Hague after the Chilcot enquiry.

Disappointing but unsurprising acceptance of the right of the USA to treat us a second class human beings.

All due respect Paul, but that is a dangerous argument. The same argument that hacking is not a ’serious’ crime could just as easily be applied to those in the financial industry who illegally circumvented financial rules for their own gain. After all, they did not injure anyone (physically) and they showed (all too clearly) the loopholes in the financial system

I think McKinnon should be extradited. If he did the crime (and I am making no assumptions of guilt) he deserves to stand trial for those crimes in the country he committed them. If the government signed up to a bad treaty (and it ain’t the first!), then we have to abide by it, and hope that a later government repeals it!

Tom, I run several computers out on the internet. Securing them is not that difficult.

1. Switch off all services that are not needed
2. Turn the firewall on
3. Ensure that stupid passwords cannot be used

Those three steps alone will kill off 99.9% of hackers and they are in the same league of difficulty as “don’t leave your laptop on the back seat of the car with the window down”.

There are other more abstruse steps that get used to limit hacking opportunities but those 3 would probably have stopped McKinnon.

In any case, the responsibility for the server is with the owner of the server. It is up to them to make sure that people cannot just wander in from the internet.

Test your own vulnerability. Do you use a password on this list?

http://www.whatsmypass.com/the-top-500-worst-passwords-of-all-time

If you use passwords on that list, who are you going to blame? A hacker for knowing what people use or yourself for picking such a dumb password?

On a similar topic:

Why can I be prosecuted for not adequately securing my wireless connection if someone uses it to download some kiddie porn or terrorist materials but the US is fine for leaving its IT doors open?

Double standards methinks.

On an unconnected note the law that states if my car is speeding I can get done even if I can prove I wasn’t in it is morally wrong.

Here’s a question: should I start automatically deleting every comment which includes the word “methinks”?

Tom – I’m glad you raised the issue at last, but disappointed in your conclusion.

Firstly, I think the public realises that the way Mr McKinnon has been treated just isn’t tennis. Not British fair play. You just think – for goodness sake, he’s suffered enough already.

Meanwhile, of course, we have genuinely nasty people like Abu Hamza, that the Americans also want extradited, but it seems he is endowed with human rights and so he stays here, costing the taxpayer over £2 million so far.

And I wouldn’t expect a fair trial in the USA these days.

Here’s a question: should I start automatically deleting every comment which includes the word “methinks”?

No, because your party colleague, Kerry Mccarthy, uses the word as well:

It’s something that’s quite common on Twitter and rather rude, methinks.

http://kerry-mccarthy.blogspot.com/2009/11/upsetting-people.html

Aspergers is part of the autistic spectrum. It’s a big spectrum.

They are not all “mental”. People with Aspergers are generally at the high functioning end of autism.

What they all have in common is a tendency to become intensely preoccupied with a very narrow field of interest or several very narrow fields of interest. They are also usually very clever. I am generalising wildly here of course but everyone who knows someone with Aspergers is going to recognise some part of that.

There was something on the radio quite recently about a company in Holland that specifically recruits people with Aspergers as programmers because they are so good at it. It is an ideal field for someone with Aspergers if you think about it.

If McKinnon was going to be extradited to Holland I don’t think I would be bothered by that but the thought of him being extradited to the USA makes me uncomfortable. I do not see why he can’t be tried there if necessary but if found guilty serve his sentence here.

That was a post of double standards. when labour is so soft on crime at home, But when its master the USA says jump it jumps. It is quite pathetic that you make a stance on this but turn a blind eye to everything else.

Labour soft on crime soft on the causes of crime. Unless it upsets the USA.

Labour government is a joke.

Since 2003 Sexual Offences Act became law in May 2004 and the end of 2007 there were 45 cases of rape of adults in which the rapist admitted guilt but was released with a caution.

In a further 66 cases individuals who admitted raping a child under 13 were freed with a caution.

Labour – Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

@John Self

You point me at heresay evidence to support your point. if Jon Ronson were an expert psychiatrist rather than a Guardian hack that might carry some weight.

For you other point about “mild” Asperger’s I would refer you to Person #1’s contribution, which as I understand it fairly accurately described the nature of the condition.

MYTH #1: Computer hacking is not a serious crime.

My main company website was hacked into earlier in the year and used to send out spam. The hosting company took it down and I had to pay a small sum (not a small fortune) to get it fixed.

Yes, it is a crime, but worthy of years in prison? I expect the perpetrators live overseas. I didn’t bother demanding a police investigation and, if the culprits are caught, that they are extradited to the UK.

MYTH #2: McKinnon was pursuing a harmless obsession about UFOs.

It is a well-known characteristic of Asperger’s to have some difficulty communicating. It probably pays to know about the condition before condemning the actions of the sufferer.

Let’s be honest, I can think of a few of your communicants who would type I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels , mainly in jest, of course.

MYTH #3: Asperger’s sufferers shouldn’t be extradited.

I repeat: It probably pays to know about the condition before condemning the actions of the sufferer – before sending them to their fate.

MYTH #4: The extradition treaty with the US is one-sided.

Yes, there “is some truth in this” so what is going to be done about it? If you think it is fair that Mr McKinnon is extradited, then surely you must insist that the agreement that gets him sent away is also fair?

MYTH #5: McKinnon cannot expect a fair trial in America.

Is torture at Guantánamo a myth? Or at Abu Ghraib? Or secret rendition flights to torture camps?

MYTH #6: McKinnon will receive an unduly harsh sentence.

Don’t you think the Americans will want the rest of the world to see what happens to hackers?

People are in jail for ten years in the States for refusing to pay their income tax. How many years for Gary?

Methinks you miss the point. Deliberately? The real problem is that your former leader “negotiated” an extradition treaty with the USA which is wildly out of balance. As we all know. Regardless of context, for a Home Secretary to say he he no power to alter an extradition is a quite extraordinary surrender of sovereignty.

So we have 80+% of our legislation determined in Brussels. What %? in Washington.

Oh. and by the way, QZ, “Simple minded blacks” is profoundly offensive. Or maybe it is YOU who are simple minded ot come up with such shit?

“Yes it is, and it causes millions of pounds of damage every year. People who hack into other people’s computers should be charged and tried. If convicted, the sentences should be severe.”

Well each case doesn’t cause millions of pounds. If he had walked through pentagon security and put that note on somebody’s desk in person would he be in serious trouble? Probably not.

‘Severe’ sentences? Compared to what? Trespass or burglary. Surely like these two examples it depends on what the hacker was doing. Dropping a couple of notes on the desks of some folks in the Pentagon is not the same offence as redirecting some missiles to fire on Moscow.

I suspect a “strong stance” is needed as another hacker has just blown Climate Change out of the water. Thousands of politicians were hoping to extract trillions of taxes from the gullible “people” and will now have to think of another scam

Can’t have hackers getting off lightly if they stand between vast amounts of taxpayers money and political power can we?

http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2009/11/20/climate-cuttings-33.html

Johnson’s dropped a bollock in the noodles.

There is profound and widespread anger out there on this one. Just like the Gurkha situation, the Government has plunged from the moral high ground.

If McKinnon is extradited the public revulsion will be confirmed. If he isn’t then Johnson is going to look even less like a leader then he did when he dropped the other, drug-related bollock into the noodles.

Clumsy some might say…

Tom Harris “Here’s a question: should I start automatically deleting every comment which includes the word “methinks”?”

I’d say “yes”. As we know you love censorship this makes as much sense as any other labour policy.

Perhaps you could extend your scheme to include deletion of every posting from a person that hasn’t cc’d you into all their emails for perusal at your leisure (in accordance with Labour Policy).

I should have added two things: about the “dry sense of humour” – I never figured out if this was deliberate or totally unconscious. My friend, Fred, often said to me, “I’ve given up violence”.

I missed out a vital fact. Almost all of the inmates had been diagnosed far too late in life, due to ignorance of the condition. Many are never diagnosed because they never come into contact with the law.

I find a lot of the less crazy ones get firsts at university and become accountants with large corporations.

And by the way, the extradition process can go two ways, according to the politics. Fast or slow. There are ways to speed it up and there are ways to drag their heels. Clearly, the decision has been made to speed it up, and that, most certainly, is political.

1. The Americans will have to try Gary McKinnon according to their laws, which are very similar to our own in process and basic substance, being based on the English Common Law tradition.

2. McKinnon will be tried in a sophisticated arena. It is absurd to suggest that ‘Justice’ in the US in terms of process and fairness is less than our own. Some say that American trials are more fair in some respects. American lawyers do say that their society appears to be more free than our own.

3. McKinnon will, inevitably, have access to very experienced lawyers. If private lawyers are not available there are experienced, specialist, public defenders (I am advised) who will represent him.

4. If the case against McKinnon is proved to the satisfaction of a jury and he did, indeed, cause extensive damage to computer systems (as alleged) then it is likely he will face a significant sentence. The Americans have, I understand, given assurances that if convicted he will not be held in a Supermax prison.

5. I am advised that it is likely, if convicted, that McKinnon will be repatriated to serve much of any sentence in Britain.

6. I am advised by US lawyers I know that account will be taken of health (physical and mental) issues and appropriate arrangements made.

7. The European Court and our own Court of Appeal have ruled that extradition does not breach his human rights. Those hearings were fair – a not unreasonable assumption since no point is being taken otherwise.

8. There is, understandably, a great deal of emotion behind this case. Twitter and blogs raise awareness of important issues. Unfortunately, that same emotion can cloud reasoned analysis at times (we are all prone to this, I suspect) and blind us to arguments we do not care to see.

I can see no compelling reason, in law,on the limited facts available publicly why McKinnon should not be extradited. The humanity issue is, of course, a quite different matter. I am not sure what mechanism could be brought to bear, for humanitarian issues to over ride due process of law, national and international.

The burden on prosecutors in the States is high and conviction is not, I am told, assured or a ’sure thing’. The US government will have to prove the case according to law. As with all cases, process will depend on all the facts – and, I am fairly certain that few commentators, journalists, bloggers etc have these.

I am open to an opposing view if this can be made out in law. Until I see such reasoned analysis, unpopular though this may be, I think that Tom Harris has made a case.

[...] See Tom Harris MP for more sensible comment on this [...]

Sean O’Hare

Absolute mince. To imply that everyone with Aspergers has to be supervised round the clock, is liable to commit acts of violence or generally be crazy is ignorant nonsense. If you are going to post on something that you clearly know nothing about at least make some effort to get it right or you will simply make an arse of yourself.

Meanwhile, back at Jack Straw’s ranch

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/thousands-of-children-jailed-ndash-before-being-found-guilty-1828761.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6671233/Six-fold-increase-in-freed-criminals-returned-to-prison.html

http://bastardoldholborn.blogspot.com/2009/11/right-to-silence.html

What a mess our judicial system is in. Well done, Jack Smug.

MYTH #1: Computer hacking is not a serious crime

If a hoodie walks along the street trying car doors, finds one open, then leaves a message on the drivers seat, assuming he could write and no matter what the content, is that so much of a crime? If if he trashed the interior or the care that would be more serious, but I don’t think McKinnon did the equivalent to that did he? No accusation of having deleted data, denial of service etc.

US taxpayers are forking out $millions for the likes of DoD, NSA to maintain security and it ain’t that difficult. Anyway I would have thought that the really critical systems would have be completely isolated (i.e. an air gap) rather than have an internet connection.

Whoops – missed one

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/26/kent_police_tall_explanation/

I’d better watch out – I’m 6′6″. Clearly a threat to any serving police officer.

Indy

Person #1 did not say that everyone with Asperger’s syndrome needed to be supervised around the clock. He/she said they worked in a secure unit dedicated to Asperger’s adults. I think that implies that they are the minority that have already exhibited violence tendencies.

From Wikipedia:

People with Asperger syndrome often display behavior, interests, and activities that are restricted and repetitive and are sometimes abnormally intense or focused.

Now whether that interest is UFO’s or politics doesn’t matter. He deserves protection.

indy

I have been a computer programmer/software engineer all my working life so perhaps I just haven’t been diagnosed yet.

John Self

I have no desire to see McKinnon rot in jail – not that that would have happened anyway, as he was offered 18 months to 3 years as a plea bargain.

If I had to spend 18 months is a US gaol I think that would be the end for me. He wouldn’t know if his rear end had been bored or reamed (probably both)!

@Charon QC: “As with all cases, process will depend on all the facts – and, I am fairly certain that few commentators, journalists, bloggers etc have these.”

As no evidence has been presented to any court in England, Scotland or Europe I cannot see how we, or any court, can judge whether the extradition is fair, whether the trial will be fair or if anything he has publicly said will be allowed into evidence as some of it was pretty self-incriminatory.

@Simon: “Labour – Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.”

I am as appalled by you as to the idea of self-confessed rapists being allowed back onto the streets but I don’t think you can blame the Labour government directly for what some police forces are doing. Unless you think they are trying to fudge the crime stats to run on a law and order platform at the next election.

As I think the UEA hacking scandal has shown, sometimes it is in the public interest for people to trawl through private information that has been left relatively unsecured. Is it illegal, of course – what isn’t these days – is it serious, not so much. Institutions have to learn to be much more security conscious, after all, it’s usually OUR data that they lose.

Paul

I agree with your last paragraph. It was up to the UEA to ensure that their information was secure. Not so sure that it should have been private though as those clowns were being paid out of the public purse.

The fear that is fuelling this case is surely the rumour that the man could face sixty years imprisonment, rather that the right of the US to try him. Seems to me they have every justification.

If his potential punishment were,say, six months, I doubt there’d be such alarm.

As to his Asperger’s. We surely cannot have someone clearly able enough to wreak such havoc entirely free to do so again. Not without some sanction attached to it, though certainly not a ludicrous sixty years in the slammer.

he is not threatened with 60 years, it is a sad reflection on british journalism that this spin from his PR firm is accepted uncritically.

he was offered a plea bargain that would have seen him spend maybe 18 months in gaol, most of it in the UK.

That is the funny way these colonials do things.

If you look at the sentances handed out in equivelent cases in the US in recent years, he will be measuring his time in months not years.

However, he seems to be playing a dangerous game of chicken with the American prosecutors.

This was a disgusting decision that makes me ashamed to be a member of the Labour party. Too many times recently the government has shown no moral backbone and once again is enslaved to whatever its US masters want. Extraditing this man is a disgrace.

Tom – is Gary’s alleged message, “I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels,” much different from one of your ‘endorsements’?…

“You personally have motivated me to do everything I can to ensure people like you are kept as far as possible from the levers of power in this country.” (Sam C)

Indeed, Stewart. And if “Sam C” had posted that message illegally on a US Defense Department computer instead of on my blog, I expect he would be listening to an air stewardess explaining where the exits are round about now…

Even though, Tom, the crime was committed in the UK?

Isn’t it the case that this area of cyber crime is still new and nobody really knows how to deal with it justly?

Your update takes the p**s out of a fellow comrade.

Tut tut that won’t do.

Judging by the on air and on-line vitriol directed at the government in relation to this matter; it looks like, once again the government’s political antennae have malfunctioned.

I’m with you on myths 1,3,5 &6. I think both sides (US government & the McKinnon team) are probably guilty of perpetrating an escalating account / mitigation of events.

However, look on the bright side. If revulsion at poor Mr. McKinnon’s extradition to the USA hastens the demise of your vile regime, then get him on that plane pronto and break out the water boards…

Sean O Hare

Person 1’s first comment clearly implied that people with Aspergers are either potentially or actually dangerous. His or her second comment retracts that.

Sorry if I was a bit blunt but the idea that having Aspergers makes someone dangerous is just completely wrong.

Having Aspergers makes someone weird but rarely dangerous.

Liberanos I don’t really understand that point.

If a British hacker can get into US Defense Department computers then so could terrorists, spies, foreign agents and general bad guys who really could wreak havoc.

Gary MacKinnon is not a terrorist or a bad guy, he’s just a hacker.

To my mind he has done them a favour exposing the shortcomings in their system.

It’s a bit like the time those peace campaigners got onto a nuclear sub and people said much the same about them. Personally I would rather that if anybody can wander onto a nuclear sub it should be a bunch of peace campaigners though I would rather that no-one was able to do it at all.

I like this too, Tom:

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4930 http

It is yet another case of tabloid sensationalism and libertarian imagination vs common sense, and good government with Alan Johnson showing more courage.

Tom, what an utterly sick and perverted mind you have. The ’spin’ is all yours. YOU assume that McKinnon doesn’t have Asperger’s, with what authority and what evidence? None whatever, from what I can glean here.

I used to think that MPs were somehow a cut above. Recent years have demonstrated them to be fellow residents of the Westminster gutter, along with bankers, the media, the judiciary, christian fundamentalists… and amateurs who think they can build a credible IT firewall.

Charon QC – bless you, but you’re a bit naive about the US system.

Do you really think a Public Defender is going to do the business for Gary or anyone? Consider a membership with Amicus or Reprieve and see what “justice” defendants get without private lawyers. There is no Rolls Royce, publicly funded “legal aid” in the US, my friend.

Further “prosecutorial misconduct” doesn’t have quite the same sting in the US as it does here. Give a pat on the head to Lt Michael Behenna and Curtis Flowers.

The fact remains that the treaty should make sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander – but doesn’t. That’s this Government’s fault – not the US Constitution’s.

As for what I think about the merits of Gary’s case? Who cares? His case has yet to be tested in Court, so none of us know.

The point is, he’d better get a fighting fund moving fast if he wants a “fair trial” in the USA.

How low must we as a party stoop? The Americans say jump and the right wing New Labour leadership says ‘how high’? I hope Mr Johnson is satisfied with himself. After the next election let us hope the New Labour faction (that was formed by right wing pro US interests let us not forget)is swept away and we get our party back. At the moment it is run by people who make used car salesmen look good.

David Gale: “YOU assume that McKinnon doesn’t have Asperger’s…”

Huh? I think you’re getting my post mixed up with someone else’s – I made no such assumption.

Very well said, sir.
I am so sick of the liberal broadcast media…

Funny how there are increasing numbers of the kinds of posters who claim to have been or remain Labour, But don’t like normal lawful decisions . . .

. . . used to find more of those 2 or so years ago when labour was higher in the polls, and wondered if many of them were truthful on that score.

Always looks good for the opposition when people claim to be s=deserting Labour, or thinking about it.

One trolls on C i F was selling the same line as though his disaffection was still imminent when I returned after 18 months in another place . . .

@David Gale,

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Especially us Christians!

My late night pizza awaits…

@ Indy

“…To my mind he has done them a favour exposing the shortcomings in their system…”

There’s something in that. However, it’s not an entirely convincing argument, since it can be applied with equal force to every bank robbery.

As James says above, reciprocity on extradition has never existed between the UK and the US, and in the case of IRA members, not even with regard to those convicted of attempted murder -

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:BdeoWlUOfhwJ:www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ira-suspect-released-on-bail-by-us-judge-1538858.html

The other factor that concerns me is that the US military has supposedly the highest levels of security in the cyber world. This is a field of which I know zilch, but when this case first came out, I remember someone arguing that McKinnon had walked into a trap – that the whole affair was a set-up precisely designed to catch someone who could be made an example of.

As for Aspergers, again I know nowt, but I subscribe to the common wisdom that anyone who spends all their spare time in front of a computer screen is probably deficient in social skills – again, just the sort of person likely to fall into a trap.

This is one reason New Labour is going to get a definite hammering at the GE, and probable defeat… I’m not one to go all Daily Mail or Guido – not least ‘cos of their outrage at Police investigations against Tory bigwigs running a mole in Government departments for party political gain – but when non-citizens like Rachid Ramda or Hani al-Sibi or Dawalat Khan Nasir remain in this country for years on end and we’re indecent in our haste to extradict citizens like McKinnon, there’s something skew-wiff with the moral compass.

That said, methinks there is a link between casting the American judicial system as inherently barbaric and those preening themselves over the release of Abdul Bassett-Baby. In other words, distasteful pride and inability to feel compassion for Americans.

SON OF MUFF >> Any Country who condones Capital punishment

Try not to murder people and you won’t face execution in the USA. Whilst I oppose capital punishment, there is a difference between executing someone who has committed quite horrific murders and whatever you imagine McKinnon is going to face.

>> & allows people to be held without charge for so long…isn’t a Country I’d like to be tried in.

STEWART COWAN >> Is torture at Guantánamo a myth?

McKinnon is to be tried in a civilian court.

Gitmo was an ex jure military-run site which admitted non-citizens on the principle, at least, they were suspected of extremely violent acts and were highly dangerous individuals.

Difficulties is distinguishing between the two suggest your ‘concern’ is less a sympathetic humanism and commitment to jurisprudence than an irrational dislike of Americans.

>> Or at Abu Ghraib?

Disgraceful from the beginning, and individuals – albeit low-ranking, and not enough of them, methinks – have been tried and convicted.

>> Or secret rendition flights to torture camps?

That definitely sounds like a myth.

Hackers are scum.
They KNOW what they are doing is illegal.

I have zero sympathy.

Indy

Point taken. Apology accepted.

Alec,

Sorry, but you’re wrong (again). I like Americans very much. Just like us, they are under attack from PC advocates who undermine justice and climate change fraudsters.

What I meant by mentioning Guantánamo, etc., is how the American sense of justice is also degenerating like ours. People have been held there for years without a trial. That’s not justice by any normal measure.

>> Sorry, but you’re wrong (again).

Says who? Dream on! I really can’t be bothered going back to t’last thread, but you were definitely babbling about something which wasn’t being discussed and continually changing the subject so to win through deceit.

On the subject of splattering the thread with irrelevnt details:

>> What I meant by mentioning Guantánamo, etc., is how the American sense of justice is also degenerating like ours. People have been held there for years without a trial. That’s not justice by any normal measure.

Unnless you can show that McKinnon is going to be taken to an ex jure installation on Cuba, or have dogs set-upon him at a military-base in Iraq, this is irrelevent.

Assuming it were a reasonable expectation to try, and potentially incarcerate an individual in one country for crimes committed in/against another (hint, it’s not), would you be willing to see McKinnon tried in a British court or incarcerated in a British gaol?

Stewart, can we have an answer soon? I have to get back on shift!

>> Funny how there are increasing numbers of the kinds of posters who claim to have been or remain Labour, But don’t like normal lawful decisions . . .

“I had voted Labour all my life, especially when the Tories were in goverment, but as soon as I found out that there were responsibilities with power and this wasn’t one big computer game which could be reset at any time, I said no!”.

Bomber Harris gets more right wing by the day!

Now how does a lonely man with a PC in his bedroom manage to repeatedly penetrate the biggest and most powerful military computer in the world?

Is this not criminal? Has Gary McKinnon not actually done the USA a favour? What if some IT minded friends of Mr Bin Laden decided to have a go?

Lets face it, most people who could do it, and it looks like many many people could have managed this, wouldn’t even think of trying it simply because who would think Pentagon security wouldn’t actually exist!

McKinnon never actually destroyed anything, nor did he even try and cover his tracks, but still he managed to repeatedly hack into the Pentagon’s computers.

Alan Johnstone clearly has a big yellow stripe running right down his back.

Meanwhile when are we going to bring real criminals, war criminals like Bush and Blair to justice?

No, I wouldn’t want to see him ‘tried in a British court or incarcerated in a British gaol’. I would like to see an end to him being used as a scapegoat by the US Defense Dept and to see Alan Johnson growing a backbone.

“Stewart, can we have an answer soon? I have to get back on shift!”

Aye, you’re shifty, all right!

>> No, I wouldn’t want to see him ‘tried in a British court or incarcerated in a British gaol’.

So, breaking and entering against US property should not be a prosecutable offence in your estimation.

>> I would like to see an end to him being used as a scapegoat by the US Defense Dept and to see Alan Johnson growing a backbone.

If someone left their jacket open at a bar whilst nipping to the loo, and a casual thief swiped their wallet, the victim would have their own carelessness to blame… and may not receive insurance.

An offence has still been committed, and the thief in the wrong.

>> Isn’t it the case that this area of cyber crime is still new and nobody really knows how to deal with it justly?

Matthew Broderick hacked into NORAD 26 years ago, and he was pounched upon by FBI agents in the street.

It was no more a jolly jape than the time Chris Morris kicked a football, whilst dressed as Billy Bunter, over the Downing Street walls and was informed by an armed-guard than he could have been shot.

McKinnon carried out this act – and there is no dispute that he did – on US soil just as surely as he would have done so had he gone to DC and lobbed a stone through the White House window.

On the other hand, consider British-resident, Bashir Nafi who has been named as a co-conspirator in the Palestinian Islamic Jihad case in the USA; which resulted in the conviction of Florida university lecturer, Sami al-Arian.

US authorities sought Nafi’s extradiction in 2003, but nothing appears to have resulted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Al-Arian

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lecturer-rejects-us-terror-claims-as-nonsense-598464.html

Shocking opinions…You are clearly to the right of Atilla the Hun… You should do the decent thing and create your own Fascist party…ooops, you’re already in one… What a horrible man you are…

“Here’s a question: should I start automatically deleting every comment which includes the word “methinks”?”

Methinks yes.

This landlord also thinks that you are completely correct on this topic – as you are on PR in the House of Lords. Without wanting to sound too sickly or pleasant, your cracking blogging has been the talk of Tory Tavern today: http://torytavern.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/could-tom-harris-mp-be-a-better-blogge/

Liberanos – again, don’t quite see yje logioc there. People rob banks to steal money. What personal gain did McKinnon make from this?

If he had used the information he accessed for personal gain then yes I would agree that he committed a crime on a par with bank robbery but so far as I am aware he did not.

Gary’s Mum plus Shami Chakrabati on Andrew Marr discussing this topic, so not exactly a balanced viewpoint.

Have mixed feelings about this, especially since my eldest is also Aspie. Can’t help but feel that Janis Sharp is laying it on a bit thick. Although Gary sounds as if he’s mentally ill, which shouldn’t be confused with his Aspergers.

>> Shocking opinions…You are clearly to the right of Atilla the Hun… You should do the decent thing and create your own Fascist party…ooops, you’re already in one… What a horrible man you are…

And, with a devastating riposte like that, Tom, how can you possibly hope to compete?

Confession time… I hadn’t followed the case too closely, and did believe that he was facing 60 years; not up to, but almost certainly much much much much much much less.

As such, I have readjusted my views.

I’m with you on Fallacies 1, 2, 3, 5 – please, you’re a Christian, a “myth” is not a demonstrable falsehood – although 2 was as dangerous as the “have you remembered the bombs?” funny at airport security, followed by “don’t arrest me, I’m an idiot”.

Four, however, is the whole bloomin’ point. And, it doesn’t seem even to be being applied equally, viz. Bashir Nafi.

None of this, though, detracts from the efforts by certain posters to mitigate or dismiss McKinnon’s actions.

I know, I’m off to throw a stone through Indy’s window! (Oh, don’t worry, not really; get out from behind the settee.)

There’s no personal gain involved, and no doubt it was his fault for not having flexi-glass or trees protecting it.

Arrest me if ewes dare!

‘On the other hand, consider British-resident, Bashir Nafi who has been named as a co-conspirator in the Palestinian Islamic Jihad case in the USA; which resulted in the conviction of Florida university lecturer, Sami al-Arian.’

Alec, the Sami al-Arian connections are intriguing. Remember that this is the man who is credited with delivering Florida’s Muslims to Bush – indeed there is a charming photograph of Bush and his wife cosying up to Sami al-Arian and his family.

People still go on about the role chads played in getting Bush in, bit in fact the Florida Muslim vote was overwhelmingly for Bush and much more decisive – irony of ironies.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFup, Edwin, I did not know that!

Makes what was done to the Sufi Council also the more obscene.

In a week where we’ve heard evidence at the Iraq inquiry as to how Tony Blair sold us out to America, these views are particularly abhorrent.

When will Labour stop bowing to the American government? Get up off your knees and defend our country and its citizens!

Its been 8 years since this began – had he of raped children, dealt heroin or killed someone he probably would of been released by now, yet you persist in his continued torture, because he walked into an unsecured network. Get some sense of proportionality!

We’ve since learnt that many of our enemies are spending a lot of time and effort on internet warfare – the Mckinnon case helped everyone understand how poor national security was in the US and what must be done.

Further proof that Alan Johnson’s timing and judgement is as poor as ever, it’s getting to that exciting point where you start to wonder what insane choice he’ll make next! Whatever it is, we know it’ll probably be contrary to whatever expert advice he’s given.

Labour, once again, to the right of the Daily Mail. Next time you want to justify the prolonged torture of a mentally ill citizen, you should really consider who the real criminals of the war were, and when they’re going to be brought to justice. Rest assured, we’ll give you the same consideration you’ve shown others.

@Gareth Saturday 28 November 2009 at 6:59 pm
//
Alan Johnstone clearly has a big yellow stripe running right down his back
//

Ah. The posties knew that before this all blew up.

QZ. It IS OUR duty as citizens of this septic isle to criticise and shout about bad laws. Whilst this extradition is probably right, under the law that stands, the law itself is another example of why Blair should never have been allowed near any form of power.

You really are a pillar of the establishment aren’t you? You ought to vote Tory really, so enamoured are you of the status quo.

@Indy

Don’t really want to thrash this to death! But I don’t think reward necessarily enters into considerations of law breaking. In any event,a profound psychological and emotional reward,is still reward.

I don’t think you need an understanding of Aspergers, or of the law, to see why the extradition is wrong.

The alleged crime was committed in this country. Gary McKinnon hacked in to the US computers from his home. He should therefore be tried in the UK – where he has already indicated he would plead guilty. It’s a bit like someone being extradited to the US because they broke into the GM factory in Luton, or got into a fight with a US citizen in Glasgow.

@Alec:
“McKinnon carried out this act – and there is no dispute that he did – on US soil just as surely as he would have done so had he gone to DC and lobbed a stone through the White House window.”

If you call an American number and shout abuse downt he line should you be taken from your own country and sent to the states?
Did he know that he was accessing an American site? Probably, but that’s besides the point which is: should you be prosecuted by the country of the website you attack? Even if what you do is perfectly legal in your own territory? If so then you have just broken the internet. We would end up with the most restrictive legislation in place and you would only be able to access UK sites.

Don’t worry Tom, it looks like he will kill himself beforehe gets extradited. Then you can do a wee jig on his grave.

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