And another thing…

Firstly, please don’t use the word “simples” ever again. I almost threw my laptop out of the window.

As for Cameron, he was taking a bit of a risk, given that nowadays the cameras sometimes focus on people who aren’t speaking. Had they been pointed at Balls at the time, Cameron would have looked pretty foolish (not that he didn’t anyway).

GB came over better, have to admit it. But he did have problems at times with little things like words. And – tell me – is Spain in the G20 (as a separate country)..?
I just wasn’t entertained by PMQs this week. Is that wrong..?

A bit like the ‘clunking fist’ not answering any question put to him preferring instead to reel of lists of tractor production.

Seriously Tom, PMQ’s should be a serious session with genuine questions and genuine answers, not the Punch-and-Judy show that we see every week.

Both sides are equally at fault for the current situation but given the high esteem that politicians are currently viewed with, perhaps collectively, you should all start trying to convince us that you can rise above the mentality of 12 year olds.

So Brown doesn’t do that does he? Brown came over today as what he is – a bully who cannot answer a straight question. He was saved only by a Speaker who is as weak as dishwater and totally out of his depth. Someone should remind him to remind Brown that PMQs is about government policy and not about the policy of the opposition.

It’s a bit weak to thrash Cameron for that (relatively) minor thing while permitting’s Brown’s childish attack on Cameron’s background (which was the mistake of his birth).

so saying spain is a member of the g20 when it isn’t is being honest is it? pathetic……or are you just making allowances for poor gordy’s total detachment from reality……zero percent growth in your kudos…..just ask gord, he’ll explain….just as soon as his moral compass stops whirling

Calm down, dear, it’s only a blogpost! My goodness, you lot really can’t take a little criticism, can you?

Why does “clunking fist” keep going on about opposition policies?

Could someone explain what PMQ’s is for to Gordo please ?

Beyond Tom’s amazing question, has he actually answered any questions ?

Clown sub-prefect in waiting more like . . .

It is still both amusing and annoying that he so often tells people to do things they’ve already said they will be doing. Most recent example is Zac Goldsmith who said he’d be giving up his Non Dom status Before Chameleon publicly ordered him to.

The business over MPs’ expenses was riddled with such.

He is a cowardly bully, with a streak of PR right up his back.

Oh come now, they both have scripts. That ‘more he speaks the less his says’ was written down.

Speaking of which, was yours off the top of your head, or passed down from high above?

Good news, however. The Chairman of the G20 group tells us that Spain are now in the G20. So we will now NOT be last out of the recession, rather, next to last, confirming The Great Leader’s steady hand on the tiller.

As yet, we don’t know who made way for Spain.

Really, Tom! If indeed that did happen it is terribly minor compared with Gordon Brown’s litany of weekly misleading and inaccurate statistics.

A man who dislikes Ed Balls cannot be all bad.

I’d take Gordon’s serious policy and sincerity of David Cameron’s fake veneer any day, and today’s comments by Cameron add more evidence to the already vast pile that backs that up.

“Calm down, dear, it’s only a blogpost!”

Hmmm, no, my taxes pay for this charade to happen every week. Is it so wrong for me to ask that those who live off the back of my labours and those of others like me conduct themselves like adults facing the very real problems that beset our country rather than infants.

Go on Tommy – stick it to ‘em!

“Prime Minister in waiting” – God help us all.

Increasingly I feel the Tories are being rumbled.

I hope so.

I think Dave ( David Cameron)was in shock that the PM thought Spain was part of the G20.Its a pity that all Brown can do is insult Camerons background instead of answering the questions. it is Questions to the PM after all.
So if you think that was a good performance from Brown, God help us all.

It’s all about perception isn’t it? A lot of people thought the clunking fist won it today, except he clunked into neutral with the Spain-is-in-the-G20 remark. DC has to up his game. Over the months of PMQs one would have expected to see a man at the top of his game, slamming ‘em into an open goal, like today’s. I mean, it’s candy from a baby time and he’s doing his Helen Keller impersonation.

A Prime Minister must be at least ten per cent fairground barker – or one of those types you used to get who sold fake perfume in Oxford Street, out of a suitcase – Tony Blair, for example. Alex Salmond certainly is. You have to be a bluffer, not a duffer. Sadly, these two protagonists are about as convincing as a bad wig.

Mind, the loss of Balls and Bradshaw will improve the image of Labour nationally….

Mooning? That would be quite something

@Pete B Come on Pete, that was a bit like what we have to put up with on a daily basis, don’t do this, don’t do that. This is Tom Harris you are reading. Some of us like what he says. Simples

Spain are members of the G20 in the sense that they attend the meetings by invitation, that will do for all but the most pedantic, inc Sir Iain Dale it seems.

Having said that that Spain was not a “Full Member” of the G20, implying that they were members in some sense or other, he has fallen off his rocker denying that claim still visible on bis web site.

Sign of #Toriesgoingdoontdrain I fear Tom . .

But . . there’s worse . . .

BBC Breakfast reads the ‘papers; and one of them reports that Chameleon has been guzzling 40p choc bars . . AND Claiming them on Expenses!

He does not learn, does he?

I watched a bit of PMQs last night – the camera did switch to Ed Balls after Cameron’s remark about him, to find him sitting calmly with puzzled look on his face. So it did come across as a peculiar comment and a damp squib for Comedy Dave.

Gordon pwned him, as the kids say.

@ Quietzapple: Dave must realise he’s in trouble regarding the choc bars when even the usually pro-Tory Taxpayers’ Alliance has a go at him:

Susie Squire, of the Taxpayers’ Alliance, said: “It may be a nice idea to provide treats. But David Cameron’s staff should pay for their own like ordinary taxpayers.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/03/is-cameron-living-in-another-galaxy-115875-21869065/

I just remembered that GB was a keen Rugby player during his younger days, which of course he had to give up after the injury that nearly blinded him. He’s bringing that full-on, very focussed aggression to his spats with Cameron.

‘It didn’t matter that the accusation was falsely made’

In my experience, MPs often speak falsehoods, about other MPs AND constituents and local councillors, presumably on the basis that if you tell a lie often enough, it is accepted as the truth. No-one in a position to challenge them, such as the Standards Commission, seems keen to do so.

Yes Nicky.

She was pretty mild though I thought, and no mention of the taxis which they sometimes take when a train would be quicker & etc. I somehow suspect that various Labour politicians would attract considerable scorn.

Poor Sir Iain, who runs the country’s second most popular tory blog, no reply to my tweet:

Quietzapple
@Iaindale Yr stand on G20 may just possibly be down to 1) Polls 2) PMQs 3) Econ Recovery. Spain attends the G20 with FULL RIGHTS ergo member

Hey Ho!

Nicky: ‘I just remembered that GB was a keen Rugby player during his younger days, which of course he had to give up after the injury that nearly blinded him. He’s bringing that full-on, very focussed aggression to his spats with Cameron’

He’s a big man, but he’s out of shape…

BTW, you don’t think it’s conceivable that if Balls was doing something, he might have adopted an attitude of hurt innocence when Cameron called him out?

Nah, couldn’t happen, that’s schoolyard stuff, not commons behaviour.

“you don’t think it’s conceivable that if Balls was doing something, he might have adopted an attitude of hurt innocence when Cameron called him out?”

Then why did Cameron afterwards remark on the fact that Ed had been “quiet”?

Could you all PLEASE stop acting like children and try to run the country out of recession instead of into the ground.

PS. How is the ‘Renee Witherspoon’ anti-domestic violence campaign coming along? Can GB not read his own handwriting or did someone else muck it up for him?

Tom,

I think I remember Tony Blair doing a similar trick when William Hague was asking him about the EU at one PMQs. On the ropes (for once), Blair pretended that he’d heard a Tory shout out ‘What about Norway?’ to which Blair replied, with glee, ‘Norway? Norway isn’t even a member of the EU!’ If Cameron is trying this tack, he’s learnt from the best…

By the way, Tom, do you think PMQs serves any real purpose aside from – and this is critical, I’m sure – demonstrating to a leader’s own party that they are politically savvy and strong enough to cope with the bear pit ie that PMQs has almost nothing to do with the outside world and everything to do with internal party politics. I read pundits every week saying that Brown was much better or that Cameron triumphed easily etc. These must be nuances – I don’t see a huge difference between the performances each week; in fact, mostly they seem to be exactly the same!

Since you ask, George, I don’t actually think that PMQs permeates the public consciousness directly. Its importance lies in (a) troop morale, and (b) convincing the watching hacks that a party is self-confident and on the front foot. That’s when PMQs – indirectly – benefits a party nationally.

@Paul:

It seems almost certain that the Uk has been out of recession so far as economic expansion is concerned for some months.

Would you please stop trolling hysterically and relate to the real world?

@Quietzapple
Please stay out of conversations you know nothing about: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192
not that the GDP reduction was the point of my comment, it was more to do with MPs acting like children and gleefully pointing out that the other side has their shirt tucked into their pants while the country falls down around their ears.

Sorry, but I don’t see that as trolling, merely trying to hold elected officials to a higher standard than 8 year olds.

‘“you don’t think it’s conceivable that if Balls was doing something, he might have adopted an attitude of hurt innocence when Cameron called him out?”

Then why did Cameron afterwards remark on the fact that Ed had been “quiet”?’

Y’know, there’s no better person to ask about that than Cameron himself. Mind you, then there’s the risk he might have a good answer, which would kind of spoil the purpose of this blog entry.

I could surmise that he was referring to Balls’ behaviour after Cameron’s ‘Miss, Balls is making faces!’ moment. I could surmise any number of things, but only Cameron, and maybe Balls, would know for sure. Speculation is fun though, yes?

Nicky
Thursday 3 December 2009 at 8:46 am
Gordon pwned him, as the kids say.
*****************************************

Yeah, my kids use the word ‘pwned’ all the time – but then their mother is a Bosnia-Herzogovinian.

And they know who Reese Witherspoon and Renee Zellweger are.

Which absolute clown ‘preps’ this hapless PM?

@Paul

If you followed your own advice you would remain silent for ever. If you wish to conduct an IM I suggest you do so.

@Sammy

Did your ‘English as a Pejorative Language’ teacher offer you any sort of certificate?

I thought not.

@Quietzapple
Any evidence that the UK has come out of recession over the past couple of months (mentioning months with regards to recession suggests you do not actually know the technical definition of recession, but never mind)?

I say the UK, according to the most recent figures is still in recession and provided evidence to back it up. Newspaper reports repeatedly mention that teh UK is the last of the G20 countries to recover from recession. But Quietzapple says it ain’t so, with no evidence, so it must be true.

Any training in economics? Any work in the financial sector, any experience in the Treasury or BoE? Or how about some facts, perhaps ones that are more accurate/more recent than the UK government statistics:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/gdp1009.pdf
which show the UK in recession as of 2009 Q3 figures.

@ sammy: your other half is from Bosnia, of all places?

Reason no 94 for not voting Tory: their spineless appeasement of Slobodan Milosevic.

The undoubtedly noisome Ali Campbell is back where he belongs…handing the PM poison barbs to stick into the Tories.

Now, if they bring back the rest of the Blairites to help, they might have a chance.

[...] This post was Twitted by gedrobinson [...]

[...] This post was Twitted by iancarnegie [...]

Isn’t it ‘tweeted’?

@Paul:

Your memory is more shot than mine.

We’ve had this argument, or similar, a while back.

Q3 = Jul – Sep and the adjusted figure for UK Growth is -0.3%.

In view of the far greater contraction of Q2 most people, hearing that Stobarts for example, believe that the economy is on the up and up, would simply accept that it is very likely that our economy turned the corner sometime in Aug.

Economics is the most dismal science which is why I moved on and am reluctant to address even the silliest trolling points put on such a basis.

Oh, and had Geo Osborne been at the Treasury we would already be deep in a double dip recession, not having come out of the first one ie the second downturn would have been while actually in recession. Assuming that MI6 hadn’t taken him out about day 10, because Chameleon certainly would not have.

It could not be imagined how far and how quickly confidence would fall were his jerky paws to be on the tiller, Northern Rock and his 3 policies in a day would have been enough.

@Quietzapple “We’ve had this argument, or similar, a while back.”

Yep, and you lost it then too.

The UK is in recession until the figures are published to say that we aren’t. By that reckoning, the rest of the G20 are out of recession, while we remain in recession.

I must say that Paul’s bona fides as an “economist” bear scant examination.

His link is to the unadjusted figure for Q3 (Jul – Sept 2009) which was corrected to minus 0.3% a few weeks back.

While I am no doubt a disappointment to the Noble Lord Peston and his 1960s colleagues, Paul is still less encouragement to CCHQ.

@Simon:

The figures reflect the real world, their independence from it are just an economist’s trick.

The UK’s economy is out of recession, has been for a bit, and eventually the statisticians will show this.

Wet paper bag for Paul, someone? Oh sorry, he’s still in the last one . . .

@Quitzapple
All of which still miss the point I was trying to make which is that MPs acting like children is not a good think.

For a Labour MP to laugh at DC for some idiotic thing that has no bearing on anything, or for the Tories to take great joy in GB getting Renee Zellwegger and Reese Witherspoon does nothing to improve my lot or your lot and is most definitely not what they were elected to do.

For Tom to say “That’s when PMQs – indirectly – benefits a party nationally.”
PMQs is not supposed to benefit a party! It is for MPs on ALL sides to question the government of the day, call them to account and keep them honest. MPs should represent a constituency, their country and their party in that order.

@Quietzapple. “The UK’s economy is out of recession, has been for a bit, and eventually the statisticians will show this.”

Yes but, (sigh), the statisticians have been able to show every other member of the G20 is already out of recession. Therefore we are last.

However you thrash around trying to spin that, the truth is, we are the last. Which proves Gordon Brown was either lying about us being “best placed” to weather the recession, or got his sums drastically wrong. Neither of which makes him look particularly good.

Untrue, & with a light heart I am happy to confirm you are lying as is your usual wont.

Not only is Spain likely to be behind us when the figures are all in and analysed by those with rather more objectivity than you could manage if you tried, but we were rather tardily into the recession too.

You may recall that various other EU members went in, just dipped out and then fell far deeper than they had first done.

These would be countries with higher Unemployment than the Uk too, which decent folk think a suitable indicator of the harshness of a recession, but then, you . . .

The G20 is specifically a forum for discussion of economic affairs, Spain has fully participated for some time – sending her Economics Minister and then PM when others did.

That is quite full enough membership for all but the plonking Sir Iain Dale (has he ever been elected to anything? have you?) when you are attacking the UK’s PM.

Might you not better further your cause were you to deliver their leaflets on Ilkley Moor?

But DO NOT forget your hat.

@Paul:

Such accounting is generally done by means of questions written down, and in written answers, rather than in PMQs which are all piri piri, and long have been. It is musichall without the music.

While Tom Harris plays a full part in written questions I gather, you might follow less popular blogs for suchlike, Lord Toby Harris most notably, or read Hansard.

http://www.lordtobyharris.org.uk/members-of-the-house-of-lords-demonstrate-blurred-vision-on-surveillance-investigatory-powers-and-counter-terrorism/

In the real world, of which any set of statistics is a partial snapshot of limited accuracy, as I may have mentioned before, the UK was probably out of recession in August 2009:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2009/12/flattening_not_falling.html

Thanks to Tom Harris for the link.

@Quietzapple, Spain is not in the G20. That was Gordon Brown’s mistake, for which I expect we’ll see an apology any time soon.

Things must be bad if we are boasting of growth of 0.1%.

@Quietzapple
http://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx
Spain is NOT in the G20. That it comes along and sits in on meetings does not change the FACT that it is not a full member of the group of 19 countries. Incredible to think the G20 can’t count, might explain the mess we’re in now. The EU is the 20th member if you are interested.

There is a technical term in economics called recession which is two consecutive quarters of falling GDP which means you cannot come out of recession in one month! Which is why experts judge the recession based on GDP rather than unemployment. If you’d care to look at the statistics the UK has a lower rate of unemployment than the vast majority of its EU partners at ALL stages of the business cycle. Which ‘decent folk’ may consider points to the fact other EU countries give the unemployed a decent standard of living, but then you…

It’s one thing teaching you economics, but I thought you had a better grasp of ethics.