SINCE Gordon has, inadvertently, placed immigration centre stage in the campaign, I thought I would follow up a brief conversation I had on Twitter last night about the LibDems’ proposed amnesty for illegal immigrants.
I originally thought that Daniel “the Fink” Finkelstein had nailed the central weakness of the plan when he wrote:
How exactly does Nick Clegg’s amnesty work?
The central argument he advances for it is that we can’t deport these illegals because we don’t know who they are or where they are.
He gets pretty impatient if pressed on this.
But if we don’t know who they are and where they are, then how do we know that applicants have been here for 10 years and therefore qualify for amnesty?
I thought this was a rather clever and incisive argument that rather blew the LibDems’ policy out of the water. I realised I was wrong when I read this blogpost from LibDem Ben Rathe:
The vast majority of illegal immigrants in this country initially entered legally and then became illegal once they were already here. Broadly, these cases fall into two categories. Either they are asylum seekers whose application was turned down and have chosen to go on the run rather than be deported, or they are people here on short term visas (Students, travellers etc) and are ‘overstayers’ in Britain. Don’t let the BNP convince you that we’ve got hordes of people coming into Britain hidden in lorries and vans, because it simply doesn’t happen like that. So establishing how long people have been here would, in the vast majority of cases, be pretty easy
Ben’s right on that one. However, my own (and Labour’s) objection to the LibDem policy is not its impracticability; it is its utter lacking in any kind of fairness or political sense.
I debated this issue on Radio Scotland last week with Jo Swinson, the LibDem candidate in East Dunbartonshire and a member of Clegg’s front bench. The amnesty would not be automatic, she assured us; it would apply only to those who had not broken the law during their illegal stay in the UK. I pointed out to her that staying in the UK illegally is itself a serious breach of criminal law. Well, we didn’t mean that kind of law-breaking, obviously, she didn’t reply.
But more importantly, the amnesty is a bonkers way of addressing the issue of illegal immigration. The amnesty would be a one-off, the LibDems insist, specifically calculated to address the status of the many thousands of illegal immigrants in the UK today, not those who might arrive in the future. So what happens when those currently living here legally on visas which have not yet expired see what happens to others who have been rewarded for breaking the rules? Will that encourage them to return to their homelands when their visas expire? Seriously?
And when the number of illegals starts to rise again, thanks to the “one-off” amnesty, the usual suspects on the “progressive” left will demand yet another “one-off” amnesty. And a LibDem Home Secretary would, of course, comply. And after the next “one-off” amnesty…
On Thursday, I Tweeted that the reaction among electors in Glasgow South to GB’s comments about Gillian Duffy wasn’t as hostile or as negative as I had feared. Yesterday, doing streetwork in a busy part of the constituency, I can’t say that was the case. People were angry and felt that they, along with Mrs Duffy, were being accused of bigotry because of the concerns they had about immigration.
I previously blogged about the need for the “political classes” (I hate that expression) not to close off debate on immigration by shouting “racist!” at everyone who wasn’t overjoyed at current high levels of immigration. It’s commonplace to overstate the threat to our democracy posed by the “rise” of the BNP (“German Nazism started with the election of two MEPs” the Daily Mash headline ran last year). But there’s no doubt that many, many ordinary working class people are resentful about the changes they’ve witnessed in their local communities as a result of the arrival of new immigrants in large numbers. The resentment arises from a belief that they’ve not been consulted about these changes and certainly haven’t given their permission for them. And when politicians dismiss those concerns, that resentment, perfectly understandably, increases.
In all of this, the LibDems are by far the most out of touch and patronising of all the parties. Their response to concerns about immigration? Encourage more of it. Their solution to illegal over-stayers? Reward them with UK citizenship.
The British, like most other nations, are not fundamentally racist in nature. We are fair-minded, tolerant and welcoming. But we also expect everyone to play by the rules and we don’t think that those who successfully evade the authorities for long enough in some surreal game of hide and seek should be rewarded after the government has counted to ten and opened its eyes.

























Sunday 2 May 2010 at 10:23 am
“I previously blogged about the need for the “political classes” (I hate that expression) not to close off debate on immigration by shouting “racist!” at everyone who wasn’t overjoyed at current high levels of immigration. “
Well, Gordon agreed with you there, at least in front of the cameras.
Whoops!
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 10:27 am
Ben Rathe: “Don’t let the BNP convince you that we’ve got hordes of people coming into Britain hidden in lorries and vans, because it simply doesn’t happen like that.”
Hmmm, maybe not hordes, not every day, but it does happen quite a bit, and Labour created the UK Border Agency to resolve it, right?
The one they are now cutting for all they are worth?
When you next see Phil Woolas, maybe you’d like to ask him why he’s been silent on this. It can’t be doing his reelection chances much good…
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 10:35 am
And, er, those people who are “concerned about immigration” — where are the vast majority of those people they’re concerned about from? Is it Africa, Russia, The Middle East, Asia, America or Australia? Or is it EU countries, by any chance?
What proportion of the overtly broad group termed “immigrants” are actually illegal, do you think? Has there been a sudden influx of non-EU migration to Glasgow that I don’t know about? What proportion of those have managed to avoid the authorities and otherwise stay under the radar *and* manage to scrape together enough money to live on, for ten years?
Framing this in the same context as “the arrival of new immigrants in large numbers” suggests that an amnesty and this are somehow related in anything except the broadest, most superficial sense. Are they? Because from where I’m sat, it’s mildly-disingenuous political bluster. Weak sauce.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 10:37 am
Perhaps not the ‘Political classes’ but the ‘Liberal chatterers’ have long been exposed to the change in social attitudes that has happened on a rising scale over the past few years. Living on a peripheral housing estate anywhere in the UK people see very directly the effects of immigration for example, however if they venture to mention the issue the ‘racism’ tag is quickly produced, now Gordon has added to the mix by applying the ‘bigot’ tag. Commentators around the country are concerned for Mrs Duffy but generally they do think she is a little bigoted really. She’s not, she has a set of old-fashioned attitudes which our political classes have not succeeded in changing by education or in any other way. It’s fine and fashionable to change the laws on discrimination in various areas but there is a responsibility to inform the public at large. This has not happened as Mrs Duffy has found to her cost.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 11:34 am
Most of the Lib Dems’ ideas are criminally insane, like VAT on new houses and swapping Trident for three scud launchers (or whatever cheaper version it is they want).
Remind us though, please Tom, what was your reaction to Andrew Neather’s revelation, confirming what we already knew, that:
The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”.
He said Labour’s relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to “open up the UK to mass migration” but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its “core working class vote”.
As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 11:37 am
Stewart – Do you believe everything that former Labour advisers say, or just the ones whose opinions (and Neather’s opinion was exactly that – not fact) you happen to agree with?
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 11:43 am
Tom: are you suggesting that the former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett is being economical with the truth?
If so, do you think this is a recent character flaw or one that has been with him all the time he was advising those at the highest level of government?
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 12:27 pm
Maybe, like Mrs Duffy, more voters who would have been inclined to vote Labour will now not vote at all, thanks to Brown letting them know how he thinks of people who voice concerns he doesn’t share.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 12:48 pm
Hi Tom,
One thing that does surprise me is that nobody seems to have mentioned that this has been tried in Europe already. In 2005 Spain offered what I believe was Amnesty number 15, which probably ties in quite nicely with your statement:
“And when the number of illegals starts to rise again, thanks to the “one-off” amnesty, the usual suspects on the “progressive” left will demand yet another “one-off” amnesty. ”
Spain also did something that the Libs haven’t done as far as I’m aware; anyone applying for such an amnesty had to have a sponsor that would provide work. This could be the workplace where they had been making money, but in that case the employer was liable for back tax for the whole period that they had been there (plus of course they would lose their cheap source of labour).
I would guess that the Libs decided that there wasn’t much point in insisting on a sponsor in the middle of a recession. Perhaps they also thought not as many would come forward as they would be under pressure from their dodgy employers. Of course, without a requirement to name and shame those who employed them there is no incentive for such employers to change their ways).
As might be expected, such schemes have been met with a mixed response. I would suggest that it didn’t meet the objective as there has just been a backfill of new people arriving illegally to replace the ones granted amnesty (stating the obvious really, otherwise there wouldn’t have been a requirement for 15 amnesties).
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 1:45 pm
Whether or not you believe Andrew Neather (and many of us do) it seems self-evident that one of the reasons the Labour Party, as distinct from Labour supporters, has been so comfortable with high levels of immigration for the last sixty years is that they believe that an immigrant vote is almost always a Labour vote and is likely to remain so for several generations.
Two things have changed in the last thirteen years. One is that the majority of the the immigration has been ethnically european, so it is less easy to shut up those who express concern about it by calling them racists and bigots, the other is that there is now a real possibility that Labour will lose more votes to the BNP than it gains from immigration if it is not seen to recognise that there is a problem. As a result the party now nods in the direction of more stringent immigration controls. Will the nods be translated into action? Well hope might triumph over experience.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 2:12 pm
“The British [...] are not fundamentally racist in nature.”
Damn straight. What we really hate, in my experience, is queue jumpers – which is exactly what someone going around the immigration rules is doing.
What leapt into my mind the first time the LD amnesty was mentioned is one simple question – which I haven’t heard asked or answered – “what about someone who’s been here illegally for *9* years?”. Our borders didn’t suddenly get locked down 120 months ago, so surely there are a bunch of people just short of being able to get pardoned. Do we deport them? Give them a shot at a second amnesty? Do we let them lie about how long they’ve been here illegally?
I must say, I’m grateful to Mrs Duffy for getting this topic out in the open where it can be dealt with. Can’t have been much fun for her, or for Gordon Brown, but it needs to be discussed rationally, and it looks like that’s finally starting to happen.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 2:26 pm
Tom – yours is the party that presided over theimmigration and asylum shambles. What the Lib Dems are saying is let’s draw a line. Let’s allow those people who have settled here and have done no harm to our communities to stay, and let’s catch a grip on who comes in and who goes out in the future.
That seems eminently fair and sensible to me.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 2:35 pm
”Yesterday, doing streetwork in a busy part of the constituency, I can’t say that was the case. People were angry and felt that they, along with Mrs Duffy, were being accused of bigotry because of the concerns they had about immigration.”
”But there’s no doubt that many, many ordinary working class people are resentful about the changes they’ve witnessed in their local communities as a result of the arrival of new immigrants in large numbers. The resentment arises from a belief that they’ve not been consulted about these changes and certainly haven’t given their permission for them. And when politicians dismiss those concerns, that resentment, perfectly understandably, increases.”
Where in Glasgow South have you encountered working class people perturbed about the arrival of large numbers of immigrants?
Because aside from the asylum seekers occupying previously vacant GHA houses we haven’t seen the arrival of large numbers of immigrants.
So what are you talking about?
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 4:18 pm
Well, you could do one of two things: open your eyes next time you drive or walk down Alison Street in Govanhill, or dismiss Glasgow South voters as bigots. Take your choice.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 5:13 pm
“In all of this, the LibDems are by far the most out of touch” …
You mean apart from Gordon Brown ? He believes anyone who even asks him a question on it is a bigot. Oh, and he didn’t “misunderstand” … he really seems to think that.
It hardly matters though as he’s only got another 4 days left.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 5:24 pm
I agree with you Tom. Its just such a pity that Labour has let this all happen.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 6:56 pm
Iain Gill – the reason your comments are always deleted is that you left an offensive comment about me a while back. We don’t allow your sort in here.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 7:23 pm
Nick Clegg repeatedly made to David Cameron during the last debate the point that 80% of immigration was from the EU.
Clegg got it completely wrong – it’s only 40%. The figure he was quoting was from an Economist report on working immigrants only.
It does look like back of a napkin policy-making
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 7:59 pm
Allison Street isn’t in your constituency Tom. I know that as I used to live there. And Govanhill, like Pollokshields, has always been multicultural, it’s not something that happened overnight.
Aside from the asylum seekers Glasgow South has not seen an influx of immigrants. And the asylum seekers are living in houses nobody else would.
So I am asking you again – what are you talking about?
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 8:12 pm
Observer – okay, at the risk of encouraging you, here goes.
You asked : “Where in Glasgow South have you encountered working class people perturbed about the arrival of large numbers of immigrants?”
I never said that people were concerned about “the arrival of large numbers of immigrants” in Glasgow South. Go read the post again. But just because something is happening elsewhere in one’s country and not in your actual street, does that mean you don’t have a right to be concerned about it? Don’t you believe that someone living in Glasgow has a right to express concern about what’s happening elsewhere in their country? Isn’t that what we’re supposed to be debating at this election – the future of the country, not just the future of your local neighbourhood?
And the large numbers of Slovakian and Czech immigrants who have come to live in Govanhill in the last three years – you think that people living in Shawlands or Simshill have no right to express an opinion about that? And if they do, do you consider them bigots?
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 8:41 pm
You claim that the Lib Dem proposals would “unfair”. Furthermore, the Labour Party claim to want a “fair” immigration system. Yet you continue to try and out-nasty the Tories on the issue.
I work with asylum-seekers, immigrants and those awaiting deportation. The situation many of these people are facing is far from fair, yet it is the Labour government who have allowed the system to become discriminatory and abusive. Deporting Christian converts to Iran where they face almost certain torture and possible death, or unaccompanied minors back to the DRC where they risk being forced into combat – is this fair?
Labour ought to be ashamed of themselves. For this reason alone you’ve lost my vote.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 8:49 pm
“For this reason alone you’ve lost my vote.”
For this reason alone? And not because you’re already, according to your Twitter avatar, a supporter of the Green Party?
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 8:54 pm
Indeed not! I began supporting the Greens due to their committment to social justice in the field of asylum and immigration. Prior to this I was an ardent Labour supporter.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 8:55 pm
OK that’s fine Tom you have clarified something that I didn’t understand from your post. And BTW it is the Roma who are causing the problem in Govanhill, it may not be politically correct to say it but I just have. However thankfully the Council and the Scottish Government are working jointly to do something about it. Nice to see them bury their political differences when it comes to practical matters.
However you have illustrated something which I think is relevant in the debate about immigration – people are worried about something that isn’t happening to them or their neighbourhood, and you have to ask yourself why. Immigrants are easy whipping boys in times of recession but it seems to me that immigration is not a factor in large parts of the country, but people are still focusing on immigration anyway rather than the real problems that face their communities.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 9:45 pm
I think their hands-off attitude to immigration is the best example of the Lib Dems’ middle-class identity politics. We already know that Nick Clegg provides his children with private healthcare, and plans to send them to private schools. Lib Dems won’t have to depend on local schools and hospitals. They can pay their way past the masses.
The Liberal Democrats have never been a party of real social justice. They don’t believe in universal benefits or in universal public services. Just look at how their ‘fair’ tax plans will reward middle-income voters: that is their priority, not those out of work or too poor to pay income tax to begin with. Their concern with the poor is that of the charitable philanthropist, not of someone concerned with creating a more equitable and inclusive society.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 10:09 pm
I’m going to be controversial: I don’t see how you can care all that much about immigration policy and at the same time claim not to be bigoted. Think about what border controls actually *mean*: it’s us saying to people from other countries, “No, you can’t live here and access all these wonderful things we have because neither you nor your parents weren’t born on the right lump of land. You don’t deserve a decent wage, your children don’t deserve a good education, and you deserve to rely on third world standards of healthcare when you get sick.”
I don’t see how you meaningfully distinguish those assertions from racism. To say that someone from Britain has more intrinsic – rather than mere legal – right to those things is just wrong.
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 10:28 pm
(And, actually, I think that’s what a lot of us on the left think about immigration. We DO think most of the electorate are bigots and racists. But left of centre politicians can’t express their true feelings and hope to hold office.)
Sunday 2 May 2010 at 11:35 pm
Elizabeth.
Greens.
Have you looked at their policies other than windmills and the like. Its frightening. They are as extreme as the BNP in their own way.
Monday 3 May 2010 at 12:36 am
Tom – do you describe yourself as a “Scotlandian”? The term is “Slovak”, from which the name Slovakia is derived, as Scotland is from Scot.
Anyhow, how many are Czech or Slovak and how many are Roma?
There are problems with an amnesty, some of which would be mitigated by a constitutional amendment banning any further amnesty, but maintaining the fiction that there are no immigrants who have outstayed their visas creates other problems (such as the ludicrous case of Baroness Scotland being charged with failing to obey a law she herself drafted). Treating individuals individually is more like hard work but is the only rational solution.
Racism only arises when people cease to be viewed as individuals and categorised as part of a group – if one has only ever met or heard of one example of category X, one tends to project that individual onto one’s view of category X, but if there are many of them one may project one’s view of category X onto each individual. When I was 22 I moved from an industrial town where the Conservatives just did not understand the concept of racism to a southern town where the Liberals were (to my mind) racist (anti-Italian) – the difference was that so few immigrants chose to go to the former that each was treated as a person, not as part of a group.
Monday 3 May 2010 at 8:17 am
Er Andrew.
How are we going to continue to fund
“access all these wonderful things ” as you put it
Our debt will be greater than Greece soon. I do think you and many othes need to face up to the reality of the situation.
I think most people are not racist but realist.
I think you need to rethink far more deeply about things and come up with a far more realistic conclusion..
Monday 3 May 2010 at 8:25 am
I think we need a bit of balance here.
Did you see the state of Sam Camerons hair on the front page of The Guardian.
She cannot go on like this.
Monday 3 May 2010 at 9:41 am
The situation in Govanhill is not simply about the Roma. Let’s call them the Roma instead of Slovakian and Czech immigrants. It’s also about poor housing and lack of regulation of private landlords.
The Labour Council and SNP Government are workimg – together – on addressing that. It’s not a party political issue.
There is an issue for UKBA however in that the Roma are being brought here and controlled by gangmasters who are operating quite legally.
Why doesn’t the UK Government stop these gangmasters from operating? If they can’t do it by the UKBA route surely they can approach it via employment legislation. Govan Law Centre has found that the Roma have to pay over pretty much everything they earn to the gangmasters in rent, even though they are livimg ten or more to a flat. Surely that is illegal.
Employment and immigration are both reserved issue so the Council and SG can’t do anything. It’s up to you guys at Westminster.
Monday 3 May 2010 at 10:51 am
“Don’t let the BNP convince you that we’ve got hordes of people coming into Britain hidden in lorries and vans, because it simply doesn’t happen like that.”
How would we know? The official numbers caught at Calais are about 10k per year, so how many thousand get through there and all the other ports?
Not that it really matters, no-one is getting into bed with the libs and that policy, its straight in the round filing cabinet whatever the outcome.
Monday 3 May 2010 at 12:18 pm
“We already know that Nick Clegg provides his children with private healthcare, and plans to send them to private schools. Lib Dems won’t have to depend on local schools and hospitals. They can pay their way past the masses.”
*cough*Diane Abbott*cough*
*cough*Ruth Kelly*cough*
Monday 3 May 2010 at 12:30 pm
as natural tory voter, i must congratulate you on the most clear and concise dissection of this mad policy! if only team blue could do so well with this and the other raving loony party manifesto promises!
travel well and if things go badly on thursday please come back as commentator or journalist.
All the best
Mort
Monday 3 May 2010 at 1:17 pm
When someone’s worries about immigration are elided with bigotry, there is surely only one sensible response.
There is no moral component to immigration whatsoever. If a country needs more people, immigration is a very good idea. If it doesn’t it’s stupid.
We have rising unemployment, a severe housing shortage, immense pressure on the NHS and cripplingly crowded roads.
This would suggest stupid.
Tuesday 4 May 2010 at 2:45 am
“Er Andrew.
How are we going to continue to fund
“access all these wonderful things ” as you put it”
Er, Johnny. That doesn’t explain why you and I should have access to them over other people trying to gain access to them.
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