I FEEL I should congratulate the vocal supporters of electoral reform. In the past few days they’ve managed to control the media agenda and paint anyone who opposes them as out-of-touch dinosaurs, cynically clinging to first-past-the-post (FPTP) like a third world dictator refusing to acknowledge that the riots outside his citadel walls mean his reign is over.
But claiming that the opposition have no principles or arguments is itself an anti-democratic, lazy way of leading any debate. As a supporter of FPTP I can acknowledge that the system has its faults and that the alternatives have some merits. From what I’ve seen so far, supporters of reform cannot make a similar leap.
So I’ll make it easy from them: all electoral systems are rubbish. I just happen to believe that first-past-the-post is a bit less rubbish then the rest.
Because if what you’re looking for is the perfect system that will accurately reflect every vote cast and provide good government, then don’t bother. Go and take up something useful instead. Like gardening. Or stamp collecting.
All electoral systems are flawed in some way. They all have disadvantages and weaknesses. And when the LibDems and their supporters in the Labour Party claim otherwise, they’re deliberately trying to deceive.
So, as I say, FPTP is a rubbish electoral system. But let me qualify that: it’s a rubbish system for electing a legislature. As a system for electing a government, it’s actually a very good one. So as this debate continues, the various proponents of the different systems should be clear about what we think general elections are for – are they primarily for electing 650 MPs? Or for electing a government?
I watched a news report on Friday evening in which LibDem MP Simon Hughes was doorstepped by the cameras as he left LibDem HQ. How were the negotiations with the Tories going, he was asked. Hughes smiled enigmatically and refused to comment.
So, this is The New Politics, is it? This is the transparency and accountability that the reformers have been looking forward to? In almost any system other than FPTP (and, arguably, the Alternative Vote) this kind of secretive, grubby horse-trading between the parties would become an inevitable part of the electoral process. Yes, FPTP has produced this particular result – for the first time in 36 years. But as we know, this is the exception rather than the rule. Under most forms of PR this result would be replicated each and every time: the voters have had their say – now we can ignore them and negotiate away the policies they’ve just voted for in exchange for ministerial cars. Nice.
And how can it be remotely democratic to give the failed leader of the third most popular party in the country such king-making powers? Why is Nick Clegg’s opinion on who should form the government of any interest to anyone? In Scotland – often erroneously cited as an example of PR working effectively – the LibDems came fourth in both the 1999 and 2003 elections, yet ended up sitting round the Cabinet table. I’m not making an argument for either of the two other parties being there instead, but what’s so democratic about losers being in government while more popular parties are excluded?
Then, once the LibDems had duly leap-frogged their more successful rivals and been given a place in government, they insisted that their senior partner – Labour – ditch their support for FPTP in local government elections in exchange for LibDem support. This we duly did, without any significant level of debate in the party and without any reference back to the voters who had just made Labour the biggest party in Holyrood. Still, what do voters know, eh? After all, such complicated subjects are just too difficult for non-politicians to get their pretty little heads round, aren’t they?
At least under FPTP, whatever its disadvantages, the party that’s elected has to implement the policies in its manifesto. And if it doesn’t, it can be kicked out. Not so with most forms of PR. Have you been listening to some of the arguments in favour of reform, particularly on the Left? Reform would mean a permanent centre-left coalition in this country, they say. But since when has permanent government by the same two parties been remotely democratic? This argument, to me, is the best reason not to go for reform. I’m a democrat. I believe that if we’re beaten by the Tories, they should form the government. It’s up to the electorate to decide if they want a change of government, not poitical parties.
Yesterday a senior government minister made the point to me that under proportional representation, Thatcher would never have been allowed to govern in the 1980s. But Labour didn’t lose in the ’80s because of the electoral system – we lost because we didn’t deserve to win, because our policies were crap. The system forced Labour to take a long, hard look at itself, to reform itself, to come up with policies that would actually resonate with voters. Under PR, we would never have had to make any effort to connect with the voters; we would simply have picked up the phone to David Owen or Paddy Ashdown and formed an anti-Tory majority. Undemocratic and lazy.
But what’s wrong with coalition government? Nothing at all. In fact, I’m in favour of coalitions. We’ve had coalition government in this country for decades. Labour is probably a broader coalition than what already exists in some proportional European systems. Any party that can accommodate Frank Field (or me, for that matter) and John McDonnell and Dennis Skinner is a very broad church indeed. The same goes for the Tory party. Because FPTP forces parties to broaden their appeal, to be open to a far wider range of opinion than would be the case under PR. And our democracy is the better for it.
Under STV, parties fracture because they know they can probably be elected under more narrow party banners. And it would be a Godsend to the extremist parties. Yes, I know that the pre-packaged, off-the-shelf argument in this regard is that it’s undemocratic to use an electoral system to stop any party being elected if they would otherwise be elected under a proportional system. Argument is the best defence against exremism, apparently. Well, I make no apology for supporting a system that makes it well nigh impossible for Nick Griffen to become an MP. Our nation is better off for his absence from the Commons, and is worse off for his presence in the European Parliament.
And then there’s the practical objection to PR for general elections: at a time when we’re all wringing our hands in despair at falling turn out, why make voting more complicated. And don’t bother responding by accusing me or patronising the electorate. Whenever we’ve changed the electoral system away from FPTP in Scotland, turnout at the subsequent election has fallen. In Scotland we already have four different electoral systems: proprtional list for Europe, FPTP for general elections, Additional Member System (AMS) for Holyrood and STV for local authorities. What a mess! Changing general elections to STV would actually mean us having five systems, since we would, presumably, retain FPTP for the constituency side of Holyrood elections.
But of course there are party advantages obscuring this debate, and I’m not going to pretend that the big parties’ historic support for FPTP is entirely altruistic. Parties tend to support whichever system is most beneficial to them, and the LibDems are no different in this respect. When the SDP was formed, former Labour MPs with absolutely no track record of interest in electoral reform suddenly found themselves advocating PR in every TV interview they gave. That’s politics for you. But don’t try to tell me that the LibDems’ motives are based purely on principle and not at all on electoral advantage for them.
If we want a serious debate on electoral systems, I’m up for that. But let’s not skew that debate by lying to the public and claiming that FPTP deserves no consideration. Because that isn’t debate: that’s a sermon.
























Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:16 am
Because that isn’t debate: that’s a sermon.
Agreed. Let’s have a referendum then
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:28 am
Good article Tom. I’ve pretty well always believed in FPTP for all of the reasons you give. Look back at the last election for Holyrood, which, combined with council elections resulted in the largest number of wasted votes in recorded history. The peculiar notion of ‘list’ MP’s with no particular relationship to any constituency, apparently paid to be voting fodder for the whips.
That’s all bad but what is worse about PR is the ‘tail wagging the dog’, a very fine example of which we are watching being played out at the moment. Tiny number of MP’s suddenly find themselves with power far beyond their numbers. An unsavoury variety of ‘pork barrel’ politics takes place. That’s happening now, but under PR today’s events would be the norm and of course Mr Griffin and his cohorts would likely have several seats and who knows? They might even hold the balance of power. ‘Nuff said…
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:39 am
I’m a bit agnostic on the whole ‘FPTP v STV’ question – but there’s one thing I’m certain of: Both are a better way of picking a government and making decisions than referendums.
Referendums are not only profoundly undemocratic in so many ways, they’re also a good way of identifying demagogues.
Show me someone who calls for them a lot and I’ll show you someone who wants to hand power to media owners.
Oh – and they result in bloody awful decision-making as well.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:41 am
My big objections to PR are:
1. They give more power to party leaders because *they* decide the order candidates appear on The List.
2. They break the link between an MP and the constituency. (I believe some ‘wayward’ results from this election are down to good constituency MPs winning and poor constituency MPs loosing against national trends.)
3. They remove accountability at national level – “if it had been up to us of course … but we were forced to accommodate them …)
4. And, in contradiction to your Nick Griffin (another Public School twerp) point, FPTP allows for popular or odd-ball characters to win against established parties (e.g. Belted Galloways and that Doc who stood complaining about hospital closures).
And in support of your ‘they’re all bad but ‘ thesis – this recent article in New Scientist
Regards,
Pete
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:46 am
Thanks for the link to the New Scientist article. I bought the magazine but couldn’t find it online
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:47 am
It seems simple to me.
We are currently experiencing an unpleasant situation. Radio silence on what deals are being cooked up, and apparently the LibDem Executive (who are they?) deciding who will be the government.
Power is shifted from the electorate to the Party Quangocrats.
We either get this once every thirty years (under FPTP) or every time (under PR).
We (thanks to you, Tom) are currently spending one pound of China’s money to every three pounds that we earn ourselves. They may not be comfortable with that (I certainly am not). And yet, for some people, the biggest issue facing the country is a process one?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:48 am
‘Look back at the last election for Holyrood, which, combined with council elections resulted in the largest number of wasted votes in recorded history.’
Quite right John, and a dismal 51% turnout also.
The Scottish system – neatly summarised above by Mr Harris – is, I would guess, understood by very few Scottish voters. I say this with no pleasure -but it ain’t working very well.
Neither is FPTP. People keep talking about the dearth of Tories in Scotland, but in fact – even at this new low – they still only came 3% behind the SNP. The way the system works means the SNP get 6 seats the Tories 1, but in terms of popular vote, the Tories would surely merit 3 or 4 seats. No’ fair eh?
Can’t mind if I pointed it out, but
Cameron coalition
is an anagram of
A conciliate moron
[apologies if I'm repeating myself again]
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:49 am
TOM
Can you save us from the conservatives????
having been Raped,abused and having my life stolen away from me last time they were in a Power .
how do we keep them out of power and unable to attack the people again.
Or are you suggesting to ‘US’ just relive another (long long) Nightmare and eventually(maybe) The labour party rides to our rescue once more.
In all honesty Electoral reform at least stops them from imposing any of their mad policy’s and effectively neuters them forever.
Maybe not the best solution but almost as good as keeping them in a secure ward at Carstairs
http://www.tsh.scot.nhs.uk/Care_And_Treatment/docs/TSH%20Fact%20Sheet%20Suspension%20of%20Det.pdf
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:50 am
Just discovered this blog (and am a reasonably new resident in your constinuency).
I think there is a sense of band wagon jumping but can you blame people? No one won the election (despite how the tories have been acting) and yes if we had PR no one would win the election every time, but surely a broad-spectrum-encompassing party like the ones you say we have should have the [political] maturity to take our votes and have the maturity to compromise. Isn’t that what this election has shown we need more of in politics? We couldn’t decide over the three main parties so why should any of these parties have free reign to push through their policy agendas unrestrained.
I do agree with your comment about keeping people like Nick Griffin out of office, and I noticed something. I voted Green and was incredibly pleased how they took Brighton Pavillion, however they overall got less votes than the BNP. This sounds out-of-balance and in a way it is, but I realised that it makes me wonder what that actually says about our system. I much prefer 1 green MP and 0 BNP MPs but you can’t hide from the unnerving fact that the BNP polled higher. I also feel that a lot of people are turned away from the Green vote, as well as other such parties, by the “they’ll never get in” attitude which then perhaps leads to ideological gaps between the actual vote and someone’s beliefs.
Lastly, you can’t blame a party with 23% of the popular vote that only has 11.4% of the seats for wanting a bit more of a say.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:00 am
One other argument against FPTP:
If fewer than 16,000 electors in a select few constituencies had voted differently, we would have had a different result to the General Election; Tories could have won outright – Labour count have won outright. How can the FTP system be considered decisive?
My objection is not (just) one of high principle but based on annoyance that I am not one of the 16,000 who might change his mind or who live in the chosen constituencies. I’ve lived in South Ayrshire when Emrys Hughes used to have 25,000 majorites for Labour, and now in East Anglia where John Gunner, Francis Pym and Jim Paice have been my MPs with huge majorities. (OK, it was a bit closer this time for Jim Paice but only because we Labour Party members cocked it up with our candidate.)
There are two Labour MPs in the East of England – both in Luton – and 557,000 people who voted Labour. There are 52 Tory MPs and 1,350,000 people voted Tory. I understand your argument, Tom, but whether you like it or not, in East Anglia I am not represented. And my neighbours find the idea of being run by what they see as a Scottish mafia objectionable.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:02 am
@Paul Evans
I give you the Swiss
The happiest, healthiest, most educated, richest, most peaceful and most democratic people in Europe.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:03 am
I agree that there probably is no perfect electoral system and that they all have their failings. I also agree that a proper discussion of the various merits of all systems would be desirable.
But did the Labour government not set up the Jenkins Commission in 1997 with the support of the Liberal Democrats in order to do just that? Did it not report in 1998 that a form of PR called Alternative Vote plus was in actual fact desirable but that STV was not because it was too different from the systems used in European elections and those introduced by Labour for the devolved administrations and would involve the creation of large super constituencies to adhere to the multi-member principle necessary for STV? Then nothing happened despite the 1997 Labour manifesto promising “We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.” Tom you can hardly blame the Lib Dems and the proponents of PR being a little sceptical after failed promises like that and a failure to implement the findings of the commission your party set up.
As for Scotland, why did Labour introduce the Additional Member plus system when they set up the devolved administration if PR is so much worse than FPTP? You can’t blame your Lib Dem partners for that one now can you? The various systems in Scotland are a mess but they all came into being in the last 13 years when your party was in power in Westminster or in coalition in the devolved administrations. Also Wales and Northern Ireland use a form of PR so why is it good enough for everyone but the English?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:06 am
As you think FPTP is good for electing the executive part of government, but bad for the legislature, why aren’t you advocating radical constitutional reform to spilt the executive from the legislature?
In a hung parliament, you only get small party “king makers” and the popular parties being excluded from government if the popular parties refuse to talk to each other! There is no reason that there couldn’t be a “Labservative” coalition except entrenched tribal partisanship. Its not even as if your policies are all that different… (though I admit that your principles (hopefully) are!)
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:11 am
Once again you show why you are one of my fav. Labour MP’s. An excellent analogy of the situation.
Well done Tom.
And delighted you were re-elected. You deserved it.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:30 am
Give the re-elected MP with an increased majority…and he’s a Labour MP at that…the conch.
The electoral system hasn’t caused the problems we are facing, MP’s decisions did. The elections reflected a lot of feelings, and unusually didn’t give us a clear answer.
Let the results PR would give us every election be our guide as to whether we want to see this every time there is an election.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:31 am
So Tom, please correct me if I’m wrong here, but you appear to be arguing that Labour deserve to be in opposition now because the Tories came first in terms of numbers of seats won. Can you confirm that for us please? You would prefer your Labour leaders to rule out a coalition with the third-placed Lib Dems and other parties rather than continuing to negotiate? If so, does that not mean you’re willing to condemn this country to Conservative policies that you believe will make it far worse off?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:41 am
“Yes, FPTP has produced this particular result – for the first time in 36 years. But as we know, this is the exception rather than the rule.”
As the Jenkins report said in 1998, ‘It is therefore the case that in only 64 of the past 150 years has there prevailed the alleged principal benefit of the FPTP system, the production of a single-party government with an undisputed command over the House of Commons.’
“Well, I make no apology for supporting a system that makes it well nigh impossible for Nick Griffen to become an MP.”
As the Jenkins report pointed out in 1998, you can have a threshold under whatever form of PR you choose (e.g. Germany or New Zealand), although they decided one was not needed under AV+ to keep out extremist parties: ‘This has been an effective safeguard against the fissiparousness of the system prevailing under the ill-fated Weimar Republic, although 5% necessarily has an arbitrary quality about it. Nonetheless if we believed that a threshold was necessary to prevent the evils of excessive splintering, we would certainly propose one.’
“If we want a serious debate on electoral systems, I’m up for that.”
The Jenkins report had a serious debate and all the arguments for and against all the systems in a very open manner back in 1998. Here it is: http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/cm40/4090/contents.htm
Plus, to bring it more up to date given the various devolution changes, the review of all the UK voting systems by the Ministry of Justice in 2008: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/voting-systems-review-full.pdf
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:49 am
An interesting post, Tom. Maybe you are right. Maybe FPTP is good for electing governments but not the legislature. Maybe in that case we should separate the two, with separate direct elections for both.
At the moment, however, as voters we elect the legislature not the government. The voting system needs to be tailored to that reality.
No voting system is perfect. But I believe that FPTP is entirely discredited for electing Parliament. I favour STV because it puts most power in the hands of the electorate.
But it supposed to be our parliament. Let us decide in a referendum.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 12:21 pm
I pretty much completely disagree. As far as I can tell, you’re saying the Acerbo Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acerbo_law) is a great idea.
Parties are coalitions? What if (despite their apparently broad nature) they still don’t represent you? Why should we have to consider tactical voting at all, when AV would produce a decisive result?
As far as I can tell, you want to arbitrarily shut out third place. As a Lib Dem voter, I think it’s completely right that they attempt to form a coalition with whichever party, and whatever coalition forms will in fact have the support of a majority of the population.
As for the BNP, I think that’s just your anti-democratic nature showing through (you’re allowed to vote, so long as you vote for us two), and I believe failure to engage with the actual underlying problems, because it isn’t needed as the system shuts them out, is much to do with the rise of the BNP.
Your argument is probably best at saying that (as someone mentioned above) we need constitutional reform to separate executive from legislative. I doubt this’ll happen in this century, short of a revolution.
As for some comments mentioning of ‘flaws’ in PR – I suggest you look at the systems being proposed, no-one’s suggesting party lists (which I strongly oppose) or MPs disconnected from constituencies (which I also oppose).
The fact is that FPTP isn’t just as bad as every other electoral system — it’s the worst. Keeping it is simply trying to maintain entrenched undemocratic powers.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 12:30 pm
Why would anyone wish to support changing to a system that allows parties with very small proportions of the overall vote a disproportionate share of power?
What about the wishes of the majority? Why should their desires be subordinated to the extermist views of groups that have far lower levels of support?
Look at Israel where very extreme minor parties with views that have been rejected by a huge majority of the voters have been able to force their views and policies onto the majority because of PR.
That cannot possibly be a “better” system than FPTP.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 12:38 pm
Tom,
My interest in politics stems from a profound anger at the blatant unfairness of FPTP but it is unusual to read such a thought-provoking defence, for which thank you. I especially like the fact that you consider most systems to be rubbish, so can I instead of rehearsing arguments about PR yet again, tell you things that I want from whatever rubbish system we choose.
- We don’t want safe seats where whatever the prevailing trend a politician does not need to face a geunine challenge from the electorate. (FPTP is bad for this, but list-based systems often demonstrate them)
- We want more proportionality in areas other than party! PR should be about gender, ethnicity, age creating a much wider range of who becomes an MP. (STV is probably best here, although I’m not sure how much study has been done)
- we want a system which means that popular party figures can be chosen by the public against unpopular ones.
- We don’t want systems that keep one minority party in power in perpetuity (FPTP of course, but STV encourages more groupings to emerge so we don’t have a three party entrenchment)
- We want to be able to reject the odious (STV or AV where you can put the BNP at the bottom of your preference lost)
And hopefully create a Parliament (as it is a Parliament we elect and not a government, although these have become increasingly confused) which broadly reflects the make up of the nation, politically and socially.
Then Parliament has to create a government from that… and that is something in which we have to mature in. Seeing Parliament and government as different things is no bad thing…
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 12:45 pm
Now, I am in a real bind oner the voting reform thing.
On the one hand it’s clearly not right that the Lib-Dems came just 4& behind Labour UK-wide, yet Labour enjoy 257 and the Lib-Dems 57. That’s simply undemocratic.
And yet, as you say, the purpose of the General Election is to give the people a government.
But it’s not the purpose of the GE to give the people a *strong* government, but a *democratic* one.
Given the weird way the English parliament came about and evolved into the current UK-ish one, maybe FPTP is the best solution for the House of Commons. But to make it a truly democratic institution, let’s go the whole hog and instead of giving us guarenteed problems with a solely PR system, lets follow the Scottish model, to a degree.
What I propose is an elected Upper House. Elected with PR.
Let the Lower-House be FPTP. Let it supply the nation with a PM and the basis for your “strong government” and then have the Upper House with a rainbow coalition of parties get to go through all the daft laws a strong majority party in the Lower House gets to put up…
It’s basically a democratic version of how things used to be anyway. Lords used to be peers spread about geographically throughout the land. So make it electable, and put in a load from each “region”.
Best of both worlds then.
Of course, this would and could never happen, since as has been shown in the last 13 years, Labour don’t care about democracy (or else the Lords would already be gone) and the Tories quite like their retirement home as it is, and neither want PR since it’d mean chaos and the Lib-Dems bringing in to everything…
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 1:14 pm
Part of the problem here is terminological. People say “PR” when they really just mean “not FPTP”.
Personally I do think AV has something to commend it just as a matter of principle: it means that every MP has been backed by at least 50% of voters in their constituency, even if not as first choice.
But yes, you’re right: no system is perfect, so FPTP cannot be dogmatically ruled out. Equally that doesn’t mean it should be retained.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 1:23 pm
The Lib Dems do not have a disproportionate amount of power – they got 20+% of the vote but they will have less than 20% of the power in a Tory-Lib coalition.
And why are the Libs in the position of king makers? Because the two traditional bullies of FPTP cannot play nice and form their own coalition.
The idea that the Libs are in the middle of the Tories and Labour on most issues is ludicrous, they are further left than Labour and so the Tories should be holding out an olive branch to Labour in order to keep FPTP, Trident, Police powers, limit EU powers, introduce high speed rail links, keep people earning under 10k paying income tax, raise stamp duty limit to 250k etc. etc.
The Tories and Labour have more in common than either do with the Lib Dems. A simple agreement by Labour to relinquish power and remove GB would allow the Tories to lead a coalition government and remove any possibility of any minority party ever breaking into government. Isn’t that what we all want, a strong government?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 1:44 pm
As you said Tom there are many arguments for and against PR, but I believe the argument is more than what electoral system elects the House of Commons. It also encompasses, what type of government we have. A presidential or parliamentary system, a written constitution or not and whether we complete devolution and extend it to England (im a federalist so to stop England having too much power I would break it up, thou im sure that wont go down too well with all but the Cornish) All three things are interconnected in some way.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 2:13 pm
This is why I read this blog. Considered and clever posts like this.
You are correct that the debate being held at the moment is not the full debate about voting systems that need to take place and that, yes, FPTP does have some merits.
Your first mistake, however, was to link the electoral system to ‘good government’. The two are not always linked and I dont know what a definition of good government is – can you give us one that is only ever seen in FPTP systems?
What is the purpose of the electoral system that you have just taken part in? Electing a legislature or a government? Although in the UK both happen as a result of the system we have, what is more important? The defenders of FPTP veer between espousing strong government or the strangely intimate feeling they get from having a group of voters to call their own – and sod the ones who didnt vote for them.
You complain about how the negotiations are being kept secret. Why not complain about us all not being kept informed of the details of Labour calls to Alex Salmond? We are in this situation because it is new and neither side is experienced at it. In PR/Coalition systems, the negotiations usually have taken place already and alliances are already in place. If we had PR this situation would not be the norm. I’ll ignore the bitterness in your tone about the cars.
Your attachment to FPTP means you cannot see the fairness of PR. Becuase you look to the majority in the seats rather than the votes you are blinded to some questions you dont want answered. You still have not why you think that it is fair that the Labour Party for just 6% more of the vote but got 5 times as much power.
You think is it unfair that the Lib Dems coming 4th in Scotland but getting seats in the Scottish Cabinet but you dont seem to get that situation is a direct and clear consequence of the system you advocate – where total votes dont matter and arbitrary numbers (actual seats) determine who gets power. Dont be a hypocrite.
I wonder if you have noticed that membership of political parties has fallen in the last decade but membership of single issue or policy based organisations has risen. I think that this is because the broad churches of the main political parties of has turned people off. Would Dennis Skinner join the Labour Party as it is now? PR could mean more parties and an increase in people committed to those parties.
Yes a PR system could let the BNP in. So what? You post is about the will of the people to be reflected is it not? What about those who do support the BNP? I would rather argue their ideas than exclude them from the process – your way is truly “undemocratic and lazy”.
I am up the debate. And one of the first things I would ask any Labour person against electoral reform was why they had it in their manifesto in 1997 and 2010.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 2:18 pm
As a fan of FPTP, this is by far and away the best written defence I’ve read so far. Congratulations, Tom.
My favourite part is this:
“So, as I say, FPTP is a rubbish electoral system. But let me qualify that: it’s a rubbish system for electing a legislature. As a system for electing a government, it’s actually a very good one. So as this debate continues, the various proponents of the different systems should be clear about what we think general elections are for – are they primarily for electing 650 MPs? Or for electing a government?”
For me – enough said.
My primary reason for posting, however, is to address the idea that House of Lords reform is a solution. It is not, because it has not been demonstrated that a wholly elected House of Lords is a good idea in the first place.
The purpose of the House of Lords is as a scrutinising and revising chamber. If it is an elected body, it will be filled with party politicans no matter how they are elected. They are unlikely to be interested in the minutae of legislative scrutiny, instead preferring to make grandstanding political points. You CAN strengthen the House of Lords through electoral reform, but only to the detriment of the House of Commons. Since the Prime Minister and most of the Government sits in the Commons, I don’t see why this is a good thing.
We are best off with an appointed House of Lords, with subject matter experts appointed to scrutinise bills passed by the House of Commons. The Lords has actually done an excellent job over the last five years, rejecting the attempts to increase detention without charge to 90 days and then 42 days. It understands its role and does not threaten the primacy of the Commons. Would you really want to lose people such as Lord Winston (the fertility expert) or Lord Bingham (former Master of the Rolls and Lord Chief Justice) from our scrutinising chamber?
I most certainly do not.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 3:48 pm
Tom; we think it’s fairer, the >20% of the country who voted for us think it’s fairer and the Electoral Reform Society think it’s fairer. Almost every other country in the civilized world has given up FPTP for good reason; the 20% of the country who vote for the Liberal Democrats never get to see their will enacted.
It comes down to a simple choice: let the people decide or else, by making a coalition with the Labour party unworkable, subject the country to another Conservative government.
As to the SDP members ‘cynically’ supporting PR, isn’t it just as plausible an explanation to claim they were ‘cynically’ supporting FPTP when they were in the Labour party because it benefited them. You don’t go impuning our motives and I won’t go suggesting that the fact that FPTP has in the past seen Labour get 90% of the council seats in Glasgow with 50% of the votes is proof that your defense of FPTP is any less than earnest.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 3:53 pm
“Or for electing a government?”
As was proven by the Labour/LibDem coalition government in Holyrood (though perhaps not the current incumbents) it’s perfectly possible to form a stable, effective government under a PR system. Germany somehow manages it. The difference is the ‘strong’ governments you get under FTPT enact policies which are not the democratic will of the population.
A Conservative recently wrote in the telegraph that ‘at least under FPTP some people get exactly what they want’ which is true. But under FPTP /most/ people get /nothing/ they want, whereas under STV (or some other PR system) through compromise and negotiation /most/ people get /some/ of the things they want.
Personally I’m a centre-left Liberal. I’d love the Labour party to become fiscally responsible and socially liberal but it just isn’t going to happen any time soon. By having a Lib-Lab coalition I get almost exactly what I want and no longer have to despair that my other progressive friends and I are fighting on opposite sides.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 4:00 pm
RE: the BNP
It’s worth pointing out that it’s unlikely the BNP would get more than a couple of seats under STV because of the way their vote is distributed – i.e. they wouldn’t get the 12 that a straight PR system would give them according to their vote share. And even if they did a) as someone said above, that’s how some people voted and b) as we’ve seen in the English council elections time and time again they never get re-elected once they’ve been elected; we seem to keep finding that the best thing for dampening the BNP is for them to take office.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 4:38 pm
Im curious as to why people believe that having PR means power to the whips and a more undemocratic and opaque system of government; to me it shows how little people who scoff at PR know about some of the systems (although I’m sure a lot do know a great deal). There are forms of PR that put power in the hands of the voter and punish MP’s who vote against their interests. The electoral reform society has on its website a system known as ‘Total Representation‘. It works by having the same original election as FPTP; you vote for a candidate in a one member constituency but after that it differs. It then takes every vote that doesn’t elect a MP and puts it into a pool of votes and then distributes these in a proportional manner. The way it distributes them is not on a party list but on how well each individual does in their constituency. It ranks them on either how many votes they received, percentage of the vote they receive in their constituency or percentage of the electorate in the constituency that voted for them. You can change how many MP’s are elected directly and indirectly say 50/50 or 70/30. You can also a restriction on the proportional system stipulating you must get a certain percentage of the vote nationally or regionally to qualify for seats. Although I disagree with people when they object to having PR due to it will elect BNP members this may quell some of there fears. The system could incorporate a limited vote. Increasing constituencies to say five members but only giving everybody three votes. This would further ensure that the Politian’s worked for there constituents as the public could just vote for a different member of there preferred party without voting for an individual they don’t like.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 5:12 pm
You know what you have done? You have actually started to persuade me.
For the first time a politician has actually explained all sides of the argument in detail, rather than just spout their own opinion in soundbites. You should do this more often Tom. I, for one, would really appreciate it.
The problem with all other channels, is that whatever you say, as a politician, will be cut, edit and taken out of context. Long detailed and nuanced explanations of your stance are as impossible as they are redundant. The beauty of having your own website / blog, is that you have total control, and can speak at length, and fully employ your communication skills. All the more so if you are an experienced journalist.
Please do this more often Tom.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 5:13 pm
“The voters have had their say – now we can ignore them and negotiate away the policies they’ve just voted for in exchange for ministerial cars. Nice.”
Most of the electorate get ignored by the current system, anyway. Your Labour government had only 35% of the vote in 2005, so 65% didn’t want you to form the government. We can also presume that you would have had an even smaller proportion of the vote under a representative system, because people would vote for a party they actually wanted, and not settle for one of the two most likely to form a government.
Parties currently win by having strongholds of support, and winning over key marginals to their side. This effectively leaves much of the population, who live in safe seats, disenfranchised because if they don’t vote for the winner in their constituency, they have no effect.
For me, it is disgraceful that you’re advocating a system which ignores the votes of most of the population.
As always, your point about it being difficult for the BNP to gain seats is patronising and self-righteous. If it is the will of the people, then the party should gain seats. It is not an argument at all to say we should keep a system because it helps to keep out a party you don’t like. I don’t like them either, but I recognise that if they gain enough support, they should have seats. Personally, I find the Labour party to be a vile, lying, self-serving disgrace, but I recognise that it still deserves seats if enough of the population vote for it, and I would never use the argument “PR would make it easier for Labour to get seats, so we shouldn’t change the system.” You’ve done the same, but replaced “Labour” with “The BNP” because, in your own self-righteous little world, your hatred of them is more important than the will of the British people.
Your point about proportional representation putting the third party in a situation of too much power is void – it’s perfectly possible for the Conservatives and Labour to form a coalition if they wanted to – there’s nothing stopping you but your own tribalist opposition to each other.
However, thank you for at least being honest that part of your support for FPTP is in your party’s own self interest.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 5:20 pm
Tom,
You say:
> We’ve had coalition government in this country for decades.
> Labour is probably a broader coalition than what already
> exists in some proportional European systems.
That’s a good and thought-provoking point — and true — but it’s not an argument for FPTP.
What you’re saying is that all of the coalition horse-trading and murky kingmaking exists right now, but happens in the (presumably now smokeless) smoke-filled rooms of Victoria Street, rather than out where everyone can see it. It’s not clear to me that this is a Good Thing.
If the introduction of some STV variant caused, or allowed, the Labour Party to let its natural factions come out blinking into the light, then voters could effectively choose which ones they liked best, without risking splitting an anti-Tory vote. Thereafter, the same coalition building happens, with probably a similar result, but with vote-shares being the bargaining clubs, rather than who’s best at internal Party politics.
In most of the Glasgow constituencies, the Labour Party could put up a bag of potatoes and get it elected. I’m not saying that’s a bad outcome (I’m in Glasgow, and am more-or-less happy with that), nor that the selection conference made a bad choice in Glasgow South, nor that the member for Glasgow South is anything but an adornment to british democracy; but to the extent that this is true, it means that it’s the electors in the selection conference who really chose the constituency’s representative in Westminster, which the constituency voters merely refrained from vetoing. This starts to smell a bit pre-1832, and it is at least partly the fault of FPTP, because it places such a premium on large parties, and large party machines.
FPTP has these advantages: it produces big parties, with thumping majorities, keeps the coalition-building internal, and keeps per-constituency races relatively predictable (identifying marginals is convenient for party strategists and journalists). But all these advantages are felt by the parties, and not by us, outside, forced to vote tactically if our constituency is marginal enough that voting actually matters.
For what it’s worth, my fantasy system would have a Commons of constituency MPs elected by one or other STV/AV/IRV variant, and a Lords elected by some PR variant. The vices of PR systems don’t matter so much in a revising chamber, and since we have two chambers, we don’t have to go for the confusing mess that is AMS/AV+.
Norman
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 5:21 pm
[...] despite Labour figures offering reform to the LibDems, re-elected Labour MP Tom Harris is not impressed at the idea, arguing that First Past The Post is less rubbish than other systems. [...]
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 5:55 pm
You have to hand it to Cameron, this is exactly what he said would happen….
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 6:09 pm
I agree. Very good article.
As a side issue, I’m also amused by all this talk of putting the national interest first when clearly the LibDems are putting their self-interest first with the talks (presumably) centred on changes to the electoral system over economic considerations. I hope I’m wrong.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 6:41 pm
“I give you the Swiss”
Please don’t.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 6:58 pm
Yes – I want a system of PR for electing our government and have done for 40 years.
But more than that – I want a referendum and a national debate. I was promised a referendum in the 1997 Labour manifesto which never happened. People like you Tom, and Brown, Prescott and Straw made sure I never got the chance. So here we are 13 years later – still arguing and still debating.
Just – please – give the British people a chance to make their own minds up!
Referendum? I say bring it on!
And I will delight in the convoluted arguments as to why we should carry on with a system that means most votes don’t count and how it takes about three times more votes to get a LD MP than it does a Labour or Tory one.
By the way – I did not vote LD in this last election. I want PR because I want fairness and plurality rather than the clunking flip flop we currently have with FPTP
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 7:40 pm
Paul (Sunday at 1:23 pm) says the Lib Dems would “have less than 20% of the power in a Tory-Lib coalition.”
But the decision about whether there should be a Con-Lib coalition in the first place now rests 100% with the Lib Dems. If Nick Clegg decides the Tories should take over as the government, they will. If he decides instead to negotiate a deal with Labour and the other broadly ‘centre-left’ parties, then the country will go down that road instead. Remind me: what was the election for ?
It’s maybe tolerable, and maybe even beneficial, for this to happen once in a while – and I can’t honestly say I’d be any happier with a Tory majority in this particular election.
But if we set up a voting system which institutionalises this power-broker role for the Cleggies, then we give up the ability for the electorate to change the government, as the Lib Dems will simply decide the winner of every election.
And even if people are happy for Nick C to be given this role, how would they react if it was Nick G ?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 7:44 pm
Oh, and let’s not be fooled by the “STV gives more power to voters by letting them pick between candidates of the same party ” argument. That only works if the parties are daft enough to act against their own interests by putting up multiple candidates.
It was noticeable at the last Scottish council elections that the great advocates of STV, the Lib Dems, made bloody sure to only put up single candidates in the wards where they only expected to win at most one seat.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 7:44 pm
Labour manifesto 97 “We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons.” – An earlier Labour lie.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 9:03 pm
You’ve been asked a couple of times now whether you would rather see the Tories in Office than an alliance between Labour and the Lib Dems, which would deliver the referendum on voting reform which was in the Labour Manifesto.
Well?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 9:18 pm
I think folks are misunderstanding the legitimacy question, turnout is the problem, compulsory voting would solve that, with a non of the above box.
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 10:13 pm
Great rant – agree with much of it – and very well argued.
But could it be related to the fact that Power2010 accused you of failing our democracy?
You and Philip Davies in the same corner, eh? Who’da thunk it?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:13 pm
Great rant – agree with much of it – and very well argued.
But could it be related to the fact that Power2010 accused you of failing our democracy?
You and Philip Davies in the same corner, eh? Who’da thunk it?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:25 pm
If you want an example of an STV system that is not proportional, have a look at Malta’s parliamentary elections. The ratio of size of constituencies to number of MPs per constituencies is such that it is very difficult for a third party to get enough support in a single constituency, hence parliament is a 2 part system, STV nothwithstanding
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:27 pm
Well put. Now can we see you and the other sane politicians get this across to the media/general public. Please? Before it is too late?
Sunday 9 May 2010 at 11:30 pm
Take this from a Lib Dem: you don’t join the third party if you desperately crave power. We don’t expect to get elected. We do it because we have conviction, and for no other reason. On these grounds alone we have far more credibility when it comes to making the PR argument, and we have supported some form of proportionality for yonks – even when we had 6 MPs and no chance even of sniffing the seats of a GCDA Prius.
Your argument about Labour and the Conservatives already being broad coalitions is highly disingenuous. The simple fact is that those parties do not have a democratic structure for choosing policy and cannot claim the basic degree of plurality necessary to substantiate such a claim. Again, the third party does and has managed to scrape together as a genuine coalition of free compromise. Oratory many win over our members when voting for policy, but the whips do not.
Your point about the BNP is cart-before-the-horse logic. In areas where mainstream political competition is healthy, there is no vacuum for the BNP. So it is fair to take it that with PR the BNP wouldn’t exist as a powerful force. Yes, PR would allow the BNP (that exists because of FPTP and the void of representation it creates) to gain a seat with its current vote share, but this leaves you with a choice:
1.) Have PR, face the possibility that in the first year or two the odd fascist might get elected but wield no real power.
2.) Stick with FPTP and continue to expand the area of unrepresented interests by allowing the BNP, English Democrats and others to exploit it.
Not a hard decision really, and one even pointed out by Conservative Action for Electoral Reform, that much sat-upon
wing of the Tories.
I am saddened that Labour hasn’t contemplated a three-way compromise and is content to let the hard work fall to the Lib Dems. Some have let this happen in the hope that we will be tainted by talking to the Tories, some in the hope that we will be lapdogs to Labour. But the fact remains – there is no ‘winner’ in this election, and Labour has not yet been mature enough to seek pragmatic cooperation. Under a more proportional voting system this would mean a Labour party inching towards the grave. Only under FPTP does it mean condescension and self-righteousness replacing cooperation for sound governance.
Blame a hung parliament for stagnation, but it is the product of FPTP. Blame electoral reform for ‘back-room deals’, but compromise works. Blame the Lib Dems for asserting a small seat-share to try and build a workable government, but it is Labour who refuses to assert itself on behalf of its voters. Before long you will run out of blame. When you do, we hope a proportional system will be there to give you the chance to put your positive side to work.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 12:20 am
Tom, I’m a Tory but I agree with you SO much. Great article.
Fundamentally the problem with democracy is that of forming a compromise between 40 million differing views that leads to just ONE government. Of course any electoral system will be somewhat unsatisfactory. So the claim that PR is somehow perfect and ‘fair’ (fair to whom?) is total BS. Thank you for making this argument.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 12:33 am
I know you are a busy MP but I would REALLY like to read your answer to the question asked a number of times above:
Would you, as you seem to imply, rather see the Tories in Office than an alliance between Labour and the Lib Dems, which would deliver a referendum on electoral reform? Do you disagree with that aspect of your party’s manifesto?
Monday 10 May 2010 at 12:56 am
[...] Tom Harris, Blairite MP (yes there are still some willing to admit to this) says, tongue-in-cheek – First-past-the-post is a rubbish electoral system. [...]
Monday 10 May 2010 at 12:56 am
Naomi – I hope you’ll understand that with the existing fragile political situation, I wouldn’t want to risk undermining my party by adding to what I’ve written in the post – at least, not yet.
As for the party’s manifesto commitment to a referendum on AV, I did not support this proposal when it came before the Commons, but now that I have been re-elected on a manifesto commitment to hold such a referendum, then I would reluctantly support it, provided it went no further than proposing AV.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 8:29 am
You must be having kittens with all this blather about the traffic light alliance with the Lib Dems and the SNP and with PR at the end of it too. Mind I can’t see it – will Labour put its trust in the SNP in an election year?
Monday 10 May 2010 at 8:30 am
That would be “no”.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 8:33 am
Tom
Interesting article, but if you’d explain how you reconcile your democratic principles with a system in which the power of a citizen’s vote is decided by his / her geographic location it would make more sense. This is the key problem. Maybe STV would be harder (though marginally) for the electorate to get to grips with initially, but sometimes doing the right thing is difficult; surely the lazy thing to do is to argue for the status quo because more principled alternatives would be a bit of a hassle. I also fail to understand how you can criticise PR systems for their propensity to lead to coalitions and later suggest you don’t object to coalitions. As you’ll be well aware there are countless examples of effective PR systems across the world – many in countries with a much superior economic and social record than our own.
And critcising the LibDems for supporting STV out of self interest is a specious argument. Would the same have applied for example to the civil rights movement for example?
Monday 10 May 2010 at 9:13 am
I tell you what Tom. The events since the election just show how much the Tory party has changed. Cameron has reached out to the Liberals and made them the best offer they have ever had since the labour party dislodged them out of power
in the last century.
So many of the Tory old guard have gone, what would have been unthinkable is now possible. When Gode said he would give up his new job to a Liberal, well I just thought how much has changed. Politics will never be the same again whatever happens.If you think about it the Tory party cannot loose.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:01 am
If Labour want back in power, the parliamentary arithmetic pretty much means taking all the support it can. The Lib-Dems alone wouldn’t cut it, so Plaid/SNP’s 9 MPs would come in very handy right about then…
Of course, from the London viewpoint, a couple of bones thrown the way of the SNP and Plaid, a referendum agreement & calman/fiscal autonomy here (independence), a change to Barnett there or full fiscal there (Plaid are very keen on that), and you’ve got 9 safe votes in the bag.
Sure it’d be stabbing the Scots and Welsh Labour MPs in the back, but that’s about the norm for London Labour.
If Cameron can’t convince the howling-monkeys in his front-bench to agree to Nick thingamajigg’s requests, then this’ll be it, or else SNP/Plaid, the Irish mob and the Green will vote down Lab/Lib’s first Queen’s Speech. Just to be spiteful, I’d expect…
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:19 am
Is that a dig at Labour being out of the loop on the negoitiations? Certainly sounds like it to me.
I have to agree about FPTP, but I also want to qualify that by asking why those who “abstain” and refuse to actually take part in the whole process are not recognised in the current system?
The Legal definition of abstention allows for the refusal to back a particular course of action the staying of the exercise of federal jurisdiction in a case that involves a question of state law or policy which the federal court prefers to have resolved by a state court or agency
Why is this not recognised in the electoral system?
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:22 am
If FPTP is the least worse voting system/why was it denied to holyrood parliament?
GORDON doing a massive U-TURN on voting system westminster/selling FPTP to stay in power.obviously putting labour party(i mean himself) before country.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:26 am
[...] blogger Tom Harris makes the impassioned case for keeping the status quo, for all its [...]
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:31 am
Once again I find myself in the strange position of finding your article both interesting and well considered.
Not that I agree with you in any aspect other than: ‘all electoral systems are rubbish’.
Thanks for writing an interesting and coherent article
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:35 am
Archie F:
“Paul (Sunday at 1:23 pm) says the Lib Dems would “have less than 20% of the power in a Tory-Lib coalition.”
But the decision about whether there should be a Con-Lib coalition in the first place now rests 100% with the Lib Dems. “
I think you’ll find I also said that the Con_Lib alliance is only a possibility because the Con-LAB alliance is a non-starter because of the unwillingness of the two main parties to share power with each other.
What could be more democratic than an alliance that encompasses 70% of all votes cast?
But that won’t happen because Labour and the Tories both feel it is their birthright to govern, alone and unencumbered by the 60+% of people that didn’t vote for them.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:48 am
Hi Tom, glad you got back in
Agreed on FPTP but I suspect there will be reform, to equalise the size of constituencies – thought quite how Cameron-Clegg are going to the House to agree to make 10pc of its members redundant is anyone’s guess.
I’d like your opinion, please (and this isn’t a gloat) on where the results leaves the Westminster Govt in terms of legitimacy north of the Border. Even with the Lib Dems on board the impetus is mostly Tory and there is precious of that about where you are and , I suspect, even less love for it. How does this shape the independence debate?
Bad news in the long term for Wee Eck – who might actually have to do something important rather than just pose – and for those who asked the West Lothian question.
Best ever,
Sir Compton
Monday 10 May 2010 at 11:02 am
Speaking as someone on the hard right of the Labour party, I couldn’t be happier at the negotiations now taking place.
A large proportion of the Conservative party will almost certainly abhor this attempt to betray their principles and bed the Liberal Democrats.
And much of the Liberal Democrat Party will practically vomit at the thought of any intercourse with the vile Tories they’ve campaigned against for centuries.
Come the next election, a few months away at most, the Conservative voters will punish the party for its grubby, little deals, and cowardice in not trying for a minority government. And the Lib Dems will be abandoned not only by their Conservative allies, as being superfluous to requirements, but will be crucified by their own voters as traitors.
Meanwhile, the Labour party, under a new leader, pure and unsullied by shabby deals, will pick up these disillusioned voters by the million.
The Lib Dem party could be destroyed. The Tory party severely damaged. And New Labour once again at Blairite numbers.
My only fear is that some idiot in Labour high command will think it a good idea to try to come to an equally shabby deal if the Tory/Lib Dem one fails.
Other than that, I’m loving it!
Monday 10 May 2010 at 12:58 pm
Wow … where to begin. What a hideously flawed sermon with so many false assumptions and flawed arguments, it’s almost impossible to know where to begin.
FPTP might have worked fine (or ‘least worse’) when there were just 2 parties, but the tide on bi-partisan politics is well and truly out. 98% votes used to be cast for Lab/Con. Now it’s just 65%.
PR is a start. Direct Democracy is the ultimate destination. The reasons for not allowing the electorate to vote on issues rather than for parties are small and diminishing all the time.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 1:09 pm
[...] the argument of Tom Harris, Labour MP for Glasgow South. His piece is fantastic – please have a read when you get the chance. He makes some excellent [...]
Monday 10 May 2010 at 1:39 pm
So, as I say, FPTP is a rubbish electoral system. But let me qualify that: it’s a rubbish system for electing a legislature. As a system for electing a government, it’s actually a very good one.
Is that an argument in favour of separation of powers there Tom ? Far more important constitutional issue than electoral reform IMHO…
Monday 10 May 2010 at 3:04 pm
[...] arguments in favour of one system or another, but would direct you to top Labour blogger and MP, Tom Harris, and what he has to say about FPTP. Balkanising our politics with a proportional voting system [...]
Monday 10 May 2010 at 3:37 pm
Tom,
Just heard Gordo singing to himself …
“And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain.
My friend, I’ll say it clear,
I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain.
I’ve lived a life that’s full.
I’ve traveled each and ev’ry highway;
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.”
What can it all mean ?
Monday 10 May 2010 at 3:59 pm
My main issue with FPTP is that in a constituency such as Glasgow South (where I do live, so Tom is my MP) I either have to vote tactically between the parties most likely to win (i.e. Labour and SNP this time), or acknowledge that my vote will be “wasted” should I vote for a third/fourth/fifth party etc.
I am not really in favour of PR because I still think we should elect an MP, not a party and PR removes this. Would Jacquie Smith have lost her seat if she’d been on a party list somewhere? Of course not, she’d have been right at the top with some junior MP at the bottom losing out. I do understand the issues the Lib Dems perceive when the vote is viewed at a country-wide level, but we do elect MPs in this country, not a party (or prime minister – hence why I got annoyed at those saying Gordon Brown became PM without a mandate… but that’s another issue)
On the other hand, I would like to be able to vote with my conscience for the candidate I prefer and then rank in order my preference should my chosen candidate not secure enough support.
It would seem to be that the AV system would keep the link between MP and constituency but allow voters to acknowledge that, for example, they would vote Lib Dem first, but in the event they come third they would prefer Labour to the SNP. The existing system seems to favour a two party system, especially in marginal seats.
Even though my own political views generally align with the Lib Dems more than any other party (with some notable exceptions, e.g. nuclear power, hence my question on it at the hustings!), I do disagree with them on PR if it means we stop electing a candidate and start electing a party. I think Westminster does have to acknowledge that the current system favours a two-party system though and AV seems a nice compromise to me
Monday 10 May 2010 at 4:54 pm
“So, this is The New Politics, is it? This is the transparency and accountability that the reformers have been looking forward to?”
How is it any different to Tony Blair governing from his sofa, ignoring not only 65% of the electorate but also most of his own MPs and Cabinet?
You’re there to represent the voters, Tom. They’re not there to make your life convenient. If they vote for all parties at once, then as professional politicians it’s your job to make it work. If you’re not up to that job, don’t stand for election.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 4:58 pm
“The system forced Labour to take a long, hard look at itself, to reform itself, to come up with policies that would actually resonate with voters.”
Well, yeah. If by “come up with”, you mean “steal wholesale from Thatcher, then disguise under a superficial sheen of public spending”.
Are you seriously saying that the country is better off for having gone through the Thatcher years? That’s what it sounds like.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 5:42 pm
Dear Mr Harris
In writing your piece on your preference for the FPTP system I wondered if you were aware of the effective, successful and efficient electoral systems which are in use across Europe. The Scandinavian countries and Germany all operate forms of PR which enable a much fairer voting system, enabling represenation for all – and a greater consensus governance without the wild swings of policy that the UK endures.
As much of the policy is agreed jointly, and its implementation is also discussed and agreed between the various parties it does not necessitate lengthy amendents and argument to agree and put in place.
In addition the need for a second chamber to provide the checks and balances to legislation is removed. Also in places like Sweden the MPs sit together representing constituencies, not in political party blocks; again resulting in a more collaborative and constructional method of governance.
Perhaps you may like to listen to the excellent ooverage on this on yesterday’s World this weekend – R4 1-2pm the piece was on at about 1.35-1.40
I write from the Cotswold Constituency where the resident Conservative MP has just increased his vote from 24,907 to 29,075 – and his majority to 12,864. Voting for any other party here is a waste of time and always has been.
The need for the electorate to really feel their vote counts is long overdue – especially in these seats with massive, long standing majorities. But in any event the disconnection between the number of votes cast and the number of seats is elected is iniquitous and unequitable.
It is time that the UK moved to more consensus, coalition and cooperation with its elective process. Given the drastic cuts and changes we face in dealing with massive deficit and debt that the UK now has we are going to need all the positive agreement and joint working that can be achieved.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 7:16 pm
[...] addition to that Labour have some very anti PR members, Tom Harris anyone, so unless it was a three line whip, which even then might be disobeyed by some, it would be highly [...]
Monday 10 May 2010 at 7:16 pm
[...] addition to that Labour have some very anti PR members, Tom Harris anyone, so unless it was a three line whip, which even then might be disobeyed by some, it would be highly [...]
Monday 10 May 2010 at 7:16 pm
[...] addition to that Labour have some very anti PR members, Tom Harris anyone, so unless it was a three line whip, which even then might be disobeyed by some, it would be highly [...]
Monday 10 May 2010 at 9:09 pm
I would rather than the enigmatic faces and sealed lips than the constant spinners feeding the rolling news beast with personality politics and soundbites – as pioneered by New Labour.
Monday 10 May 2010 at 9:51 pm
You say you want to have an honest discussion about voting systems. Well, OK, let’s have a go at summarising the advantages and disadvantages of FPTP vs. proportional representation:
Proportional representation vests disproportionate power in marginal parties.
FPTP vests disproportionate power in marginal constituencies.
PR results in shady horse-trading between parties after the election which presents voters with a fait accomplis.
FPTP results in shady horse-trading within parties before the election which presents voters with two fait accomplis that they must then choose between.
FPTP results in stable governments, except in exceptional circumstances.
PR results in stable governments, except in exceptional circumstances.
FPTP allows voters to kick out compromised candidates.
PR allows voters to punish parties for retaining compromised apparatchiks (who elected the NewLabour spin doctors?) and encourages parties to kick out compromised candidates.
FPTP keeps neofascists out.
PR allows unapologetic socialists and syndicalists in.
FPTP is simple.
PR is simple. And it’s in line with the European standard.
FPTP makes it easier for narrow special interests to capture the legislative process *coughCityofLondoncough*.
PR makes it easier for grassroots to gain influence in opposition to special-interest capture of the legislative process (see, e.g., The Pirate Party).
FPTP forces parties to encompass more diverse views due to the high cost of splitting the vote.
PR makes parties more responsive to voters by permitting dissidents to create splinter factions.
PR allows Unserious People to have a chance at election.
FPTP ensures that only Good Old Boys are elected.
There’s probably a couple of items that I’ve forgotten, but these seem to be the high points.
- Jake
Monday 10 May 2010 at 10:02 pm
Oh, and all the people here rooting for a Red/Black Grosse Koalition need to take a long, hard look at what that did to the SPD in the last German general election.
Grand coalitions only work if you’re able to shape the dominant narrative into a blunt instrument to beat your coalition “partners” over the head with.
In Britain that would require, at a minimum, a neutering of the gutter press and purge of Murdoch apparatchiks infesting your media of record (sic).
- Jake
Tuesday 11 May 2010 at 12:19 am
“At least under FPTP, whatever its disadvantages, the party that’s elected has to implement the policies in its manifesto. And if it doesn’t, it can be kicked out.”
Except Labour didn’t implement some of it’s policies in it’s manifesto. For example the commitment to a PR referendum in 1997. It was re-elected in 2001 with a minority of votes. The majority of people did vote to kick Labour out (if you take the view that people vote for or against a government), and they were ignored.
And obviously this system has been unable to kick Labour out this time, despite the Tories “winning”.
Tuesday 11 May 2010 at 1:15 am
I was with you up until:
“The system forced Labour to take a long, hard look at itself, to reform itself, to come up with policies that would actually resonate with voters.”
I couldn’t support a political party that based its manifesto on what would be popular. I want political parties to challenge the status quo, to be radical, to confront people’s cosy prejudices and promote their solutions, on the basis that they think they are right, not simply popular.
Progress, not pandering.
Tuesday 11 May 2010 at 6:12 am
[...] particularly from Scotland, loathe the idea of dumping FPTP. Just take a quick look at the blog of Tom Harris MP if you don’t believe [...]
Tuesday 11 May 2010 at 9:22 am
Your views on FPTP are a total anachronism. There can be no justification for a system that can place total power in the hands of a party that polls little more than one third of the votes, whether that means Conservative or Labour.
Politics does not exist so power can swing like a pendulum between two opposing factions, ignoring all other opinion. All the ‘we won’, ‘they won’ ‘there has to be a winner’ ‘strong government’ platitudes are little more than schoolboy machismo exemplary of the type of politics which switches people off.
I say all this as a Labour member, who has campaigned for the party from 1974. The current system provided the basis for Thatched to decimate this country throughout the 1980′s on a minority of the votes. The fact that the same system allowed Labour untrammelled power from 1997 on a minority of the votes does not make it any more justifiable.
Pointing out that PR allows fringe parties to gain seats is a fatuous argument and totally undemocratic. However distasteful their views are, if they can convince people to vote for them, those people have to be represented. It is up to the ‘mainstream’ parties to defeat them by the power of ideas; to act on the concerns and issues that allow fringe parties to grow.
The recent campaign in Barking and Dagenham showed that campaigning can defeat the BNP, but please note that the most vociferous of the supporters of that campaign are supporting ‘fair votes’.
OK, I’m sure you wont change your mind, but bear this in mind. If you do not have the confidence that you can take the majority of the people with you, you do not have the right to exercise power on the people’s behalf.
Tuesday 11 May 2010 at 11:28 am
I think that your article is the first that I have seen which addresses the key constitutional issue. We supposedly have a separation of powers between Executive (the Government) and the Legislature. And yet somehow we are supposed to elect both simultaneously with only one vote. That, more than anything else, is the reason that we have had the MPs’ expenses crisis, cash for questions, etc: MPs did not actually feel that it was they that had been elected but their Party and Party Leader. DPR (or something very similar) is the answer.
Tuesday 11 May 2010 at 1:45 pm
The Tories wont make any tough decisions until they win a majority after the next election in six months time,and the Liberals could be patsies help them prepare for success. For more comment see Jeremy Smyles blog; http:torypartyflushed.blogspot.com
Tuesday 11 May 2010 at 9:31 pm
Person who has enjoyed the benefits of untrammelled political power on 35% public support seeks to retain system that gives people untrammelled political power of 35% public support.
Wednesday 12 May 2010 at 8:06 pm
Tom, there are very simple answers to your points. Countries that have PR and coalition government actually have more stable and long-term government – look at the financial prudence, better public service provision, environmentalism, higher development aid budgets and political engagement of Scandanavia, Germany and other PR countries.
Both AV and STV makes it more difficult for extremists to be elected. The BNP got over 500,000 votes in this country at this election. This is one of the highest figures for an extreme right party across the whole of Europe. The political vacuum of safe seats causes people to turn to extremists in anger. The virilent right-wing media love FPTP because it allows them to get ‘their man’ into government with a minority of the vote and they can play dog-whistle politics on race and minorities because splitting the working class vote helps their side.
These last 5 days of ‘horse trading’ have actually highlighted a lot of good policies, brought them to the public attention and it seems the best of both parties policies are being selected.
You admit that parties under FPTP are wide coalitions and their manifestos are decided behind closed doors – how is this democratic or open? At least under PR, people get to choose the wing of the coalition they want. Most decisions in government are actually made after the election anyway – the manifestos are just a guide as to what will happen. People generally have a poor idea of what is in the manifesto.
This nonsense about being able to vote governments out is rubbish. It is actually harder. It took nearly 70% of voters to turn against the Tories to finally get rid of them, after years of 60% opposing them for 18 long years. It took over 70% of voters to get rid of Labour after 13 years. How can you say 36% should give a party a majority. How low would you go? 29%?
As Will Self said recently ‘I have nothing to say to people who reject electoral reform, it is like opposing the 1834 Reform Act that extended the franchise’. It is funny how all you supporters of FPTP like you and Diane Abbott reside in ‘jobs for life’ safe seats where you could virtually murder someone and still get elected. Glasgow South you got 20,000 votes, your nearest rival 5,000. Some chance people have got of voting you out. Pity! You and your undemocratic cabal of secret Tories should be de-selected from the Labour party for allowing the Tories back in and shunning the Lib Dems. Shame.
Wednesday 12 May 2010 at 9:35 pm
Tom, you might be interested in this scatter graph which shows the relationship between % seats of largest party and the level of government debt. http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/
Essentially the larger the party in seats, the larger the debt. There is also Harvard research which has demonstrated that more proportional the electoral system, the more equal a society tends to be. And of course, we get more women, minorities and working class elected under PR. Especially poignant considering the current new crop of public school boys entering parliament from all parties.
Wednesday 12 May 2010 at 10:40 pm
Neil Harding: “you got 20,000 votes, your nearest rival 5,000.”
What kind of democracy do you support where someone with more than 50 per cent of the vote is defeated?
Thursday 13 May 2010 at 5:31 pm
Tom, your seat is so safe it is bad for democracy. I’m sure you don’t think your seat is safe because of you, do you? You and I both know that anyone could win that seat for Labour unless they were a mass murderer or something (even then they might hold on). Don’t you think it funny that the biggest defenders of FPTP tend to come from seats like yours?
Anyway, what do you think of the graph showing a correlation between the seats the largest party wins and higher government debt? Also the Harvard study showing that PR run countries are more equal (which in turn means less crime, less social problems, better environment and a better quality of life). Basically FPTP produces higher government debt and more inequality, lower turnout and lower political engagement, worse public services and higher corruption. Nobody should defend this, especially those supposedly on the left.
Thursday 13 May 2010 at 9:47 pm
Let’s just hope the LibDems don’t find out about the Coombs Rule…it would give them pretty much every seat in Parliament that isn’t presently won by majority. God help us if that system became popular…
Thursday 27 May 2010 at 2:22 pm
Could Nick Clegg become leader of the Tory Party? For more comment see;http://torypartyflushed.blogspot.com . Page 23
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