IT’S DISCOURAGING how easily some people descend to name-calling when they’re attempting to make an argument for a particular policy.
I’ve written previously about my irritation at those who describe climate change sceptics as “deniers” in an infantile and transparent attempt to equate them in the public mind with holocaust deniers.
And now we have Neal Lawson, in debate with Sunder Katwala, describing opponents of electoral reform as “dinosaurs”. Give me a break…
It’s always the same with those who are committed to constitutional change: depict any who oppose you as neanderthals and anti-democrats. After all, if they don’t share our views, they must be wrong, mustn’t they?
Well, even those of us who aren’t brainy enough to understand the arguments in favour of ditching first-past-the-post (FPTP) have valid reasons for keeping the system the way it is. And yes, one of those reasons is that it benefits the Labour Party – there, I’ve said it.
(“What?!” I hear you say, spitting your muesli onto your laptop screen. “A Labour MP wants a system that will benefit his party? Outrageous!” Yeah, and the LibDems support STV for entirely altruistic and principled reasons…)
One of the reasons (but not the only one) I support FPTP is that it enforces the two-party system, and that, as far as I’m concerned, is A Good Thing. FPTP forces the parties to make an effort to be as broad a church as possible and to try to include an impressively wide range of political views within them. That means having a degree of collective discipline, which I know is frowned upon these days. But that’s preferable to having a new party formed every time a party member goes in a huff at every policy decision he disagrees with.
FPTP is also the best way of electing governments. Yes, of course general elections are about electing 646 constituency representatives, but it’s also about much more than that. Most people, I think would prefer to know exactly who is going to form the government and which manifesto they should hold them to.
Which brings me to the main point: PR (so not AV, usually) would give the smaller, annoying parties a proportionate number of MPs (which is bad enough) but an entirely disproportionate amount of power in the hung parliaments PR is designed to produce. I’ve seen it happen at Holyrood: the parties stand for election on their own manifestos and then, as soon as the electorate have their say, the leaders go behind closed doors, away from the cameras, and thrash out a deal without any reference whatsoever to the public or to the manifestos they’ve just voted on, bargaining away policy after policy in return for ministerial cars. That is not democracy: it’s the precise opposite.
And while PR might well ensure that you can keep a particular party out of government, wouldn’t it be better to argue positively for a particular platform rather than rely on shifty electoral calculations to stymie a particular viewpoint? Had PR been introduced in the ’80s or ’90s, Tony Blair would not have had to argue that Labour should change; he would simply have phoned Paddy Ashdown and asked him how many Cabinet seats he wanted. Job done. And it was dashed inconvenient, afer all, having to ditch Clause IV and actually make an effort to engage with the views and aspirations of ordinary people…
The Tories won more elections than the Left in the 20th century, not because of the electoral system, but because the public voted for them. They voted for them because they preferred Tory policies and politicians to ours. Democracy sucks, doesn’t t? Maybe if Labour had better policies they might have won more elections, yes?
As to the argument that electoral reform improves engagement and turnout, how much higher is turnout in the European elections now compared with the last time we used FPTP?
This whole debate reminds me of a story Tony Blair tells when explaining the evolution of his own particular brand of politics. He says when he was a local activist in London, he joined other party members distributing a local Labour newspaper to the residents of a godawful sink estate with huge levels of crime, unemployment and ant-social behaviour. What was the central message of the newspaper to its readers? “Join CND”.
AV would, I grudgingly accept, change precious little, but some of its advocates in my party want it simply as a stepping stone to further reform – a halfway house between FPTP and (shudder) STV. They actually see nothing wrong in spending the next ten years arguing about electoral reform, failing to see that such a debate will do precisely nothing to “engage” the electorate. Rather, the public will see it (rightly) as a vanishingly small political elite self-indulgently discussing the number of angels dancing on pinheads.














Sunday 6 December 2009 at 4:35 pm
Despite what you may think, those small ‘annoying’ parties, if elected, still represent the views of the people of the United Kingdom, the people who may well have elected you as their representative. Do you find these people annoying? Or is it only those with views you do not share to be annoying?
FPTP has it’s merits, and a two-party system can indeed be a good thing (see the political stalemate regularly found in Israel), but it can also lead to complacency and marginalisation of genuine concerns of the people whom you are there to represent. These views, no matter how annoying, deserve to be heard and should be treated with the proper respect they deserve.
Do you not also think that justice and fairness is an important quality in a democratic legislature? The current system of representation in Westminster is deeply unfair when comparing the number of MPs for a political party with the amount of votes they received. Maybe PR is not the best system, but this issue does deserve consideration and must be addressed.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 4:38 pm
I think would prefer to know exactly who is going to form the government and which manifesto they should hold them to.
*******************************************
Ha… unintentional comedy there, Tom.
Which manifesto should we be holding Nulabour to? Certainly not the one they published, that’s for sure.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 4:50 pm
Good grief. For once, I agree entirely with what you’ve posted.
Now all we need to agree on is that the number of MPs should be reduced to about 400 (and the Lords). The Boundary Commission should be instructed to redefine Constituencies so that there is an equitable number of voters in each (+/- a tolerance of, say 5,000) and that MPs representing Scottish, Welsh and NI Constituencies should not be allowed to vote on matters which don’t affect their electorates.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 4:54 pm
This is why core reason why I oppose PR “PR (so not AV, usually) would give the smaller, annoying parties a proportionate number of MPs (which is bad enough) but an entirely disproportionate amount of power in the hung parliaments PR is designed to produce.”
FPTP is actually fairer. You get what you vote for and small parties with low levels of support don’t become king makers.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 4:59 pm
Now I thought I felt the universe move, me agreeing with one of them red flag people. Seriously though congratulations on a well resoned piece if only some others of all parties wpuld sit and think it through instead of simple resporting to invective.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 5:03 pm
Really good post and some excellent points.
I agree with you entirely when talking about FPTPs ability to form strong Governments. We do, as constituents, want a government will be able to act resolutely and not have its hands tied by a smaller but highly influential group with its own interests.
Ironically, those who champion PR as a greater form of democracy face a paradox, in that smaller minority groups, will receive a totally disproportionate and, in turn undemocratic, amount of power.
I believe that one of the answers to the problem of representation would be to devolve power to local levels wherever possible. Too much power is centralised in Westminster for my personal liking. To hand power to local communities on issues such as recycling, sustainability and even education, I believe, would enhance both the decision making process, and indeed the decisions made.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 5:27 pm
I could not agree more. The most important aspect of this though is not Government forming or party politics, (althought I agree with your stance on both these issues) it is the link between MP and constituentcy. An undiltued responsibility to the area you were elected to serve. Accountability by being the only representative and not hiding behind a host of STV/PR nobodies.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 5:32 pm
For once Tom I totally agree with you. I never did get why we couldn’t just be open and honest about liking FPTP because it is good for the Labour Party. I have always been happy to admit this. Also as a councillor now living with the consequences of STV (shudder continues) I do nit believe that it is delivering what it promised. It was meant to deliver more, hard working coincillors because we would all be competing for electoral gain next time rond. The reality is that there are now a number of coincillors who do little or no work because they know that their party vote will always get them in (something FPTP was criticised for). Also I firmly believe that the close link between the electorate and the politician has been severely weakened under a multi-member system. Finally (although I could go on) this system actually makes it harder for coincillors to take difficult or contensious decisions as the system is much more geared to populist politics. Some may say this merely makes if more democratic but does anyone believe that we are going to tackle difficult problems such as climate change, energy production, or waste management without taking decisions which at some level are unpopular?
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 5:37 pm
Excuse the spelling mistakes and typos…was done from my iPhone…although no doubt someone will point out the Freudian aspects of me typing coincillors rather than councillors.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 6:09 pm
What’s not to like about the FPTP system?
)
It allows Labour & the Tories to keep swapping the control of the country every few years on the basis of less than 25% of the popular vote.
How can that not reflect the democratic needs of the electorate?
Oh? Hang on!
(
David Fagan:
I never did get why we couldn’t just be open and honest about liking FPTP because it is good for the Labour Party.
Yes, I know! . . . to hell with the electorate! eh? . . . as long as it’s “good” for the Labour Party.
And they say that the Labour Government is ‘out of touch’ with the people. LOL
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 7:00 pm
The Lib-Dems were able to become part of the executive in Scotland for 8 years, despite them being only the 4th largest party (having only 17 seats). Is AMS (a bastardised form of PR) really that much fairer.
After introducing STV for Scottish Council elections (a bill forwarded by the executive as part of the co-ol deal brought up because of the PR system used in the Scottish elections, by the way) 29/32 Local Authorities in Scotland had no overall control, leading to minority administrations or joint-power leadership. Both these outcomes, as I see it have a problem: nobody has a blood clue what they are going to be getting. Either, they get a mish-mash of policies, none of which received any real substantiated report, or they get nothing at all, since every idea put forward will face severe confrontation. So nothing anyone wants, or nothing at all seems to be all that comes from PR.
It is difficult to make this arguement as a Labour supporter, as people just say “It’s good for you ain’t it”, which it is – and is a benefit – but there are times when it can romp Labour royally (like the 80’s and like, possibly, next year) but at least we know that there’ll be a Tory government which will do things a Tory government does – not a bit of what a Tory government would do and a Lib Dem government would do and Scottish Senior Citizen’s Party government would do.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 7:30 pm
…They actually see nothing wrong in spending the next ten years arguing about electoral reform,…
Hopefully it will be a lot longer than ten years.
FPTP has the advantage of simplicity and also avoids those anti-democratic party lists.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 7:37 pm
Yep, democracy–so inconvenient, ya know.
And I’m reassured by the total lack of comment on the East Lothian Council and a certain Iain Gray. Iain WHO?
haha. Labour Party attacked for using thousands of pounds worth of council resources to pay for fundraising BBQs
Given a Grilling
Followed by coverage in The Herald and the usual dodging by the BBC. Fun times in Scotland.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 8:16 pm
Tom, though you are yourself something of a maverick, you politicos really don’t get the sea-change which is about to hit you.
People are fed up with politicians, fed up with party politics, and fed up with parliamentary democracy.
What we want is real democracy, as exercised in the cradle of democracy, Greece, where every citizen had the right to turn up to the agora in Athens, listen to the debate, and cast an individual vote on every major issue.
For sure, that depended on a localised citizenry and a slave class (helots) to give the citizens free time to participate.
For centuries, that ideal could not be translated and scaled to other nation-states.
Hence parliamentary (representative) democracy was introduced, and has served well.
Now, the ideal can be realised. Universal education, chores delegated to machines, information and interaction available to all.
We now have the means to exercise real democracy and we intend to do so.
Are any of you politicos listening?
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 8:17 pm
There is also the idea that pro-PR-ists say that getting elected with less than 50% of the vote is undemocratic, but with STV, a candidate needs only 20/25% to get elected.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 8:23 pm
Hamish – read this: http://www.tomharris.org.uk/2009/11/22/a-warning-to-proponents-of-x-factor-democracy/
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 8:25 pm
Hamish – read this: http://bit.ly/81Nzc1
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 9:22 pm
Yes, yes, Mr. Harris, you truly have no love for PR. I understand. You understand. *We* understand. It’s a good system we have going, you an I, don’t you think? I like to call it mutual understanding.
But can we please move on now?
I mean, I’m not saying you’re wrong Tom; you generally make a pretty good case. It’s just that you’ve now done the anti-PR thing 8 times.
http://www.tomharris.org.uk/tag/electoral-reform/
Whew. Truly no love for PR indeed!
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 9:25 pm
Arguing for the status quo – you’re a conservative Tom
I like FPTP but in my view the best system is single seat STV. Proportional representation is a load of nonsense because it allows parties that are hated by 95% of the population to get seats (see those nice BNP people in the Euro parliament).
My only issue with FPTP is that you can (and often do) win seats with less than 50% support, and the way the system works practically guarantees tactical voting. It also means that 60% of the public could be split between two candidates with similar views and allowing a third to win with 40% of the vote. This could especially happen if there’s a strong UKIP presence in the next election. What sense is there in a system that means the majority of a seat could be right-leaning and a left-leaning party wins because of a split vote (and yes, I accept this happens a bit now with Lab/LD and I would still argue that needs sorting – why are seats with >50% left-leaning voters represented by righties).
Now, some people argue that STV results in the least hated candidate winning, rather than the most popular and occasionally that is true – however I’d rather a system that gives either the most popular or the least hated. Any system that gives the most hated candidate the seat makes a mockery of elections.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 9:40 pm
As usual, I end up asking myself
“What would the Swiss do?”
http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 10:15 pm
I agree with you Tom. PR would ensure there is BNP representation in Westminster and thats almost as bad as having The Greens.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 10:43 pm
Sorry-it is simply nonsense to suggest that having 35% of the vote should allow a party to put through all its plans many of which are therefore opposed by the other 65% of the population.
That is what happened since 2005 and look where we are now.
FPTP won’t survive in the long term-get used to it.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 10:46 pm
Tom,
As I’m not a Labour fan, I don’t agree with your support of FPTP. However, your honesty in saying that one of the reasons is because it benefits Labour is a breath of fresh air the like of which we need more of. If Labour, the LibDems, everyone just admitted their selfish reasons why they want some new voting system then maybe we could have real debate on the issue?
While all the parties are claiming their own choice is best for this reason or another, if they all admitted that a big part of it is to benefit them, then debated the reality of the options, we could maybe get somewhere. Honesty like this is rare, you’ll probably have some in the party saying “What the **** are you doing Tommy”, but on issues like voting systems and the funding of political parties, if we could get past the bull****, maybe as a country we could make some progress.
So, brava.
(Though FPTP is still not right)
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 10:50 pm
This is of course, Tom’s attempt to divert attention away from the biggest story of the weekend; the forced resignation of Malcolm Tucker, the PoD himself and Number Ten’s spinmeister.
Perhaps the goings on at DoSac are too real and painful to intrude.
Sunday 6 December 2009 at 11:08 pm
Tom, you state that Lib-Dems want PR because it would be good for them. Haven’t you considered that they may be Lib-Dems BECAUSE they want PR?
Monday 7 December 2009 at 12:25 am
MPs on both sides share the worst principal features of their activists’ obsessions.
Seemingly endless futile arguments re various forms of PR for the Commons might well suit Labour as Clause 4 and its nationalisation component did for so long.
While I have views on electoral methods for the H o C it remains my view that a democratic H o L should be addressed first.
Change gently, and completely, please.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 12:43 am
David Fagan – you mean you aren’t a councillor in Belfast?
Monday 7 December 2009 at 12:56 am
FPTP fails when you get a government elected with a landslide victory, in terms of MP’s in parliament, 63.43%, yet the party only receives 43.21% of the votes, as happened in the 1997 General election. That is a failing of our voting system, no matter how it is spun.
The arguments are always made that we need a strong government, in terms of its powers, but that does not excuse the fact that a majority of people did not vote for that party, yet they have to put up the policies and decision which that party makes while in government.
If being in government is just a power grab for 4 or 5 years, then by all means keep FPTP, but if we really believe in democracy, then we need to change our system of voting, so that MP’s sitting in parliament are representative of the people.
I know the next argument is going to be, that if we went to some other system of voting, then small party’s like the Greens or UKIP might get elected and hold an uneven balance of power, or that some reprehensible party like the BNP might get a seat.
I also disagree with Tom when he says “…the parties stand for election on their own manifestos and then, as soon as the electorate have their say, the leaders go behind closed doors, away from the cameras, and thrash out a deal without any reference whatsoever to the public or to the manifestos they’ve just voted on, bargaining away policy after policy in return for ministerial cars. That is not democracy: it’s the precise opposite.”
I think that is democracy in action. Especially when compared to a party elected by FPTP who only manage to get 43.21%, and who then go on to impose their will on the majority who have not voted for them. The majority still deserve a say on how the country is run and that is where striking deals with other partys and making compromises comes in to play. The only time that has ever happened in our parliament over the past 12 years, is when Labour back bencher’s have decided to revolt and the government has had to make last minute changes to legislation, or rely on the Tories, to get their bills passed in to law. That is what democracy is about.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 2:37 am
FPTP is best because the person elected is the responsible person for that constituency, regardless of the proportion of votes cast. What is REALLY important is that he should understand he is a direct representative of the people of his constituency and not simply ‘lobby fodder’. It is thus, on principle, not acceptable that he, the MP, just votes as he is told to by party whips – he ought to find out what his constituents want him to do. He most certainly needs to actually know what a given Bill is about and what the repercussions of passing the bill will be.
Slowly but surely, as a result of the internet, more and more people are becoming aware of the importance of politics, despite the unwillingness of government to allow the teaching of politics to school children.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 9:26 am
‘Join CND’.
Well, you can’t say he didn’t have a consistent stand on WMD.
Tom, a fine piece and I agree with it. However, when you mentioned the commitment to a manifesto a little bit of sick came up far enough for me to taste.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 10:42 am
Beautiful imagery, there, Roger. But surely the point you make proves my own? If you feel that Labour hasn’t fulfilled its manifesto commitments, then you will vote accordingly. FPTP ensures accountability, but no system can guarantee that every government will keep all its promises.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 10:48 am
Most of Labour manifestos used to be a programme of works, and some aspirations might be brought in too.
Even Labour Governments do not usurp God.
Events, & etc.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 11:18 am
If the two-party system delivered anything other than two (indeed) three parties with a ba’s hair of a difference between them, your point would be stronger.
Instead we have three parties fighting over the central ground that is massively over-represented without the third lot coming on the scene just to make sure.
I am sure that there is a difference between Aerial and Persil, and whilst I don’t quite know why Fairy isn’t as good, it doesn’t seem to offer much more of a choice in the washing at 30 degrees stakes
FPTP delivers centreground politics, whether the Lib Dems are in the coalition or not.
When both main parties stop fighting over the centreground (as happened in 1983, 1987 and 1992) then the country gets something it really didn’t want (e.g. the Poll Tax)
I would say that political parties are means to an end. We shouldn’t elect Labour or Tory just for the sake of winning power, but to achieve something better. Unfortunately FPTP currently delivers two large party blocs which kick against change.
Achieving change might require the dismantling of these blocs. Would a five party system not be a lot more useful? And also prevent perpetual power for the fence-sitters?
Monday 7 December 2009 at 11:57 am
Under FPTP, all Labour in Scotland have to do to win more seats at the next UK general election than ALL the other parties put together is to secure just under one third of the popular vote.
Two questions for FPTP advocates :-
1) How are the ends of democracy served by the system’s inbuilt bias towards Labour?
2)If at a future election another party (say the SNP) looked like being the beneficiaries of such a weighted system as Labour are today, how many nanoseconds would elapse before the system was changed?
Monday 7 December 2009 at 12:51 pm
I dislike both the actuality and the principle of PR.
If I come in tenth in my race I have no right to demand a share of the gold medal. I’m a loser.
To the victor the spoils…all of them, to the losers the spoil…all of it.
With FPTP, as with a race, you know where you are. And you know it immediately, not after a demeaning stitch up in a smoke-free room.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 1:37 pm
FPTP has the beauty that everybody gets one vote and one vote only. Under STV, you are rewarded for voting for someone crap by being given a second vote. Repeatedly voting for losers is rewarded again and again meaning that some peopkle receive one vote and some receive potentially dozens (if there are enough candidates.)
What people need to realise is that under FPTP, voting for a fringe candidate does not mean that you have been disenfranchised, it means that you lost, now man up and move on.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 1:55 pm
The libdems make the best argument AGAINST electoral reform.
Before the last scottish election they clearly said that irrespective of policy similarities or differences they couldnt support a labour administration if it was “rejected” by the scottish people and lost its position as the biggest party.
Nick Clegg has now said the same about the next westminster election – that he cannot support a party that has not “won” the election.
Well i see where he is coming from. But if those statements are true, what on earth do we need electoral reform for. If the right answer is for the largest party to govern then we have a system that delivers exactly that at the moment!
Monday 7 December 2009 at 3:15 pm
My dear Lefty Tom,
Normally, I don’t read your blog. But the good Mr Dale pointed me in your direction.
I have now had an epiphany moment. The clarity with which you argue againt PR is such that I now love you, want your lovechild, will read you dilligently for ever more and have added you as one of my favourite Lefties on my blog.
Yours swooningly,
Melvin
Monday 7 December 2009 at 5:16 pm
FPTP is fine – just let’s get the constituency sizes much more equal.
Monday 7 December 2009 at 9:28 pm
This proposal will likely need to be scheduled with a Bill of Rights AND an elected Lords.
It will be more like a genuine debate than the one dimensional slalom Tom seems to anticipate I suspect.
But it does seem increasingly likely we shall see as the endgame of the next election approaches.
Tuesday 8 December 2009 at 3:31 am
There is another way in which a person elected to parliament could be ensured to have at least a 50% share of votes cast, but it would require two elections.
If no one person gets 50% of the vote, then a second election takes place. Only the two front runners are allowed to stand. In which case, everyone who did not vote for the leading two gets another chance to decide who they prefer.
This process is obviously fair and it does not need to be prolonged for any great length of time. The first election could be on a Monday and the second on the following Thursday. A little patience is all that is required.
Certainly, post expenses scandal, a better way of rendering MPs more accountable TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS is required.
Tuesday 8 December 2009 at 7:35 am
Reluctant as we palaeontologists are to express views which might draw accusations of muesli regurgitation I hope this thread is suited to dispute of one aspect of the landlord’s views.
I am happy with the primacy of the Commons. Seems to me to be certain that one body will have the power to break governments quickly. It is practical to have such powers in the hands of a blogocracy via the net, but the overwhelming majority just don’t want to be on top – as far as anyone actually ever is – of all the matters which feature in our decision of which way to vote.
But an appointed Lords is not merely restricted in importance by being appointed, it has the same respect as a quango. Were it wholly appointed by the current PM it might not be the bugbear it was to Asquith & Lloyd-George, Blair and Brown.
A revising chamber – and I favour keeping the name “Lords” myself – should be elected, or it will always be justly open to accusations that it is simply serving the PM, or, as is now the case, the Conservative Party for the most part.
An elected Lords would gain in legitimacy. When it sought to stay the hand of the Commons it would have votes in its own subsidiary elections to back it up. It should still be made formally certain that it can only hold up legislation to a certain extent. I have read that some bill has been halted for a fourth time.
A constitutional court would be needed to rule in such a case I suppose.
Our constitution has almost always grown and sometimes contracted as past practices have been discarded (including parts of Magna Carta in the 1800s principally)
The mood for change is genuine, and widespread, not solely a wish by Clegg to be permanently in power but not accountable.
I believe that the will of we Brits would be best progressed by abolishing the unelected Lords, and electing them by thirds as a counterbalance to HMG and her primacy over the Commons.
Saturday 2 January 2010 at 9:58 pm
FTPT is great is simplicity and the fact it gives you an MP to lobby directly for your town. However it can give governing parties disproportionate power… Labour has over half the seats in parliament, on just 35% of the vote!
PR would solve this, but you only get a choice of what you vote for– rather than whom– the party machines dominate. Plus you can get unwieldy co-alitions.
The best system I’ve seen, is the one unique to New Zealand. Until 1996 it used FPTP, but it swtiched to system they termed “mixed-member proportional”.
Each voter gets two votes, a party vote and an electorate (‘constiuency’) vote.
The former decides the proportionality of the parliament (correct within 1.1% at the last election), and the voter merely choose the party of his/hers choice.
The electorate vote is to decide a representative for the voter’s local constituency, this works exactly the same as FPTP. So you get an MP one can lobby directly.
The beauty of this system is that if the constituency candidate for your chosen party is rubbish, you can vote for a better candidate– but still vote for your favoured party.
One party is very much in charge still, altough in recent years the governing party has had to form a minor co-alition: However the NZ has only 120 seats, we have 646– so much less chance of coalitions forming!
I believe that voter turnout has increased in NZ as a result of adopting this system too?
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